The Breakdown

[Haltech]

UPDATE:

Official Start Date: May 1st

End Date: December 31st

Also, a point to note. Previous times up until May 1st do not count for the competition just in case that question gets asked.


Finally, this is something i have been wanting to do since we opened our doors, but the platform was just soooo fucked up out the gate, that this has sat on the back burner. I have a rough draft of rules and guidelines for conducting this event. I will need your input to work out the kinks and decide on affirmative rules so we can post them.

I feel late spring would be an ideal time to start this event (April/May) and run it until November.

The basics are this:

Race at your local track... Video and a time slip will be required to validate the run. We tally a running list and at the Nov cut off date, we have a winner for each class. I am thinking 3 classes to make it fair. The classes i have come up with are as follows:

UPDATE: @LumberJack; will be taking over this thread to help this get finished in a timely manner. Over the coming day's we will narrow down classes and get this finalized with a start date.

If anyone is open to a buy-in for the classes to make this event more interesting and more competitive to try and win some $$$ off your fellow racers that would be something we can do too.

[Easter Bunny]

I would bump the s3 to the 28mm class personally

[WetzMS3]

I'm interested to see how the classing and payouts breakdown. It may be worth it to break those three categories down further, or reward a high number in each class in order to increase participation. The difference between some of the stock block "Big Turbo" class cars and the current 10sec. cars is gigantic. Hell, the difference between a daily driven built motor "Big Turbo" class car like myself and the trailer-ed cars that would be in the same class is even a bit drastic.

Perhaps there should be HP limits for the classes similar to roll racing events.

Maybe add an "Unlimited" class for those not wanting to remove parts or change tire setups to fit into a certain class. I know of at least 1 car that has potential to be at the top of any list that has discussed using taller tires.

I understand there needs to be a limit to the number of classes for the sanity of organization, and they won't end up catering to everyone. However, I think in order to get as much participation as possible, breaking things down a bit more or paying out a long list in each class may help.

[Mazdazilla6]

Just my thoughts on it,

-I feel that the first class should be broken into two:

1. Stock turbo (totally unmodified, no exceptions)
2. Upgraded stock frame (BNR, CS, etc.)

-Possibly offer a prize to more than just the winner. I think prizes for a podium (1st-3rd) place would be a bit better and drastically increase participation.

-I'm not too sure about the elevation correction factor deal. I'm not too huge on drag race rules and whatnot but I feel like there's going to be some issues about that. IE if someone @5000asl has X% less power, they will grip better because they have less power to manage, resulting in a time which fixed with correction X makes their time much easier to attain (kind of like removing driver mod). It may not necessarily be true but I'm just trying to think of outcomes that should be avoided.

-I don't think NOx should be allowed except in the highest class. It would make the largest difference in lower classes, possibly to the point where you can't win unless you're spraying.

-I not really sure how there can be a restriction on fuel. There's not really any way to prove what was being run. I don't think running one fuel over another would give anyone an unfair advantage.

-Lastly, I know this sounds odd but I think there needs to be proof that the owner of the car was the one driving it. This competition is about the car just as much as it is the driver.

[MD1032]

Or you could just sort it by wheel horsepower. Think about it...some guys running BNR S3's at high elevations running pump gas are making less than sea level guys running E85.

Class 1: 0-325 whp (stock guys or guys running neutered tunes on BNR/CS turbos)
Class 2: 325-450 whp (midsize turbos or highly optimized small turbos like the BNR/CS)
Class 3: 450-600+ whp (built block is basically mandatory at this point)
Class 4: 600+ whp (you people are insane)

[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by MD1032 Or you could just sort it by wheel horsepower. Think about it...some guys running BNR S3's at high elevations running pump gas are making less than sea level guys running E85. Class 1: 0-325 whp (stock guys or guys running neutered tunes on BNR/CS turbos) Class 2: 325-450 whp (midsize turbos or highly optimized small turbos like the BNR/CS) Class 3: 450-600+ whp (built block is basically mandatory at this point) Class 4: 600+ whp (you people are insane)

That would require everyone to get dynoed then. And even then, there's a good amount of variance between dynos. And even after that, dyno output data can easily be altered. I feel a system like this would allow cheating too easily.

Just my thoughts, not meant to offend. I think elevation differences is going to be the hardest thing to sort out a fair system for.

[udntknw]

A time slip with the tracks name would allow us to punch it into the dragtimes and get actual track elevation along with DA based of the time of the run.

Could even punch in time an MPH to get the "corrected" ET and base it off that at the theoretical "sea level"

[MD1032]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 That would require everyone to get dynoed then.

Not really. Vdyno would be close enough. People would get called out.

If I showed up to the track and put down some insane time at sea level with a BNR S3, spraying meth, running 90% WGDC, buttloads of timing, etc...there is no way I could claim to be in the 0-325 whp class. Everyone around here is intimately familiar with roughly how much power each turbo can produce on this platform given a certain level of mods, tuning, etc.

That 325 is a pretty deliberate number on my part. I think a 310 whp K04 on meth would be competitive with a 325 whp BNR S3 on a tight enough track. The driver, tires, and suspension are going to play way more of a role at that point.

[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by MD1032 Not really. Vdyno would be close enough. People would get called out. If I showed up to the track and put down some insane time at sea level with a BNR S3, spraying meth, running 90% WGDC, buttloads of timing, etc...there is no way I could claim to be in the 0-325 whp class. Everyone around here is intimately familiar with roughly how much power each turbo can produce on this platform given a certain level of mods, tuning, etc. That 325 is a pretty deliberate number on my part. I think a 310 whp K04 on meth would be competitive with a 325 whp BNR S3 on a tight enough track. The driver, tires, and suspension are going to play way more of a role at that point.

Exactly, if people get called out for that reason it's just going to turn into a pissing contest. And on top of that, it's not just about numbers. Anyone can make a good peak number, but if the area under the curve is garbage then that peak number doesn't matter much and there's no real way to classify power under a curve. So someone with a lower peak power might have a stupid torque band that gives them a great area under the curve. A great example of this is a big turbo that isn't being pushed 100% because they tend to be operating closer to the island of greatest efficiency when not being pushed balls to the wall. So what that means is a big turbo car can enter a lower class and do great on a neutered tune because they have a really good power band compared to a smaller turbo which is huffing hot air to make the higher numbers that it is.

But there's no real way to prove that stuff like a tune. You could have an aggressive BNR setup and claim to run a neutered tune in the 325hp class but really not run a neutered tune. Who would know? And even if they didn't have a great run, it still partially takes the driver out of the equation because they have an unfair advantage.

Sure being honest would work but honestly degrades pretty fast when there's money on the line. I think rating it by turbo size is the best way to go about it, it's a physical proof that can categorize a car.

[xfeejayx]

and this is why we can't have nice things. This is already dead before it started.

good idea, though.

[Mastermind46]

@Mazdazilla6; you shut up about elevation correction factors! Those are the only things that make my car fast!

I would like to think that a lot of people would just be honest about their numbers and all that good stuff but there is always someone who has to be a dick.

[Justin@Freektune]

I like the rules so far. And I'm in no matter what

[blackms3_71]

Originally Posted by Justin@Freektune I like the rules so far. And I'm in no matter what

Not fair! Your have you car dialed in no one in ur class will have a chance lmaooo.

[xfeejayx]

Originally Posted by Justin@Freektune I like the rules so far. And I'm in no matter what

I'm forever stock turbo, but I'm with you. I'll take an ass whooping over a "did not participate because the rules don't work in my favor" any day.

Also, anticipating this
Unlimited class:
1. Skinny Freek
2. Not so skinny Freek
3. Freek Classic

[nindoja]

How about an award for most passes? Help motivate people to work on driver mod rather than just pure power.

[xfeejayx]

Originally Posted by nindoja How about an award for most passes? Help motivate people to work on driver mod rather than just pure power.

Did you just ask for a participation trophy?

[udntknw]

Originally Posted by xfeejayx Did you just ask for a participation trophy?

hahahaha... this is how we know the younger generation is moving into this platform...

[Justin@Freektune]

Originally Posted by blackms3_71 Not fair! Your have you car dialed in no one in ur class will have a chance lmaooo.

I'll be stuck in the same class as Bryce and Shawn though. So I'll be the under dog. But it's all good.


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[WetzMS3]

Originally Posted by Justin@Freektune I'll be stuck in the same class as Bryce and Shawn though. So I'll be the under dog. But it's all good. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And then I'll be stuck in the same class behind you. Yet, zero fucks given. Any additional motivation to push harder is a good thing. If we push each other via friendly competition, we all improve.

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[LumberJack]

We need to break this down a lot simpler, fuck all the little shit for aux fueling, fuel type etc etc...

IFO stlye rules..

Street Stock: up to BNR S4, any fuel goes, 2750lb weight, full interior.

FIS: 25x9tire size, 60mm turbo limit, any fuel goes, 2850lb minimum weight, full interior required.

SFWD: 26x10 tire size 62mm turbo limit, any fuel goes, 2850lb minimum weight. Must have interior forward of the B-pillar, passenger seat can be removed.

FIP: 26x10 tire, 72mm turbo limit, any fuel goes, 2750lb minimum weight. Must have interior forward of the B-pillar, passenger seat can be removed.

[Justin@Freektune]

Still need something for the stock turbo and little big turbos to race for.


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[Captain KR]

in for the unlimited class whenever it comes

[Justin@Freektune]

Originally Posted by Captain KR in for the unlimited class whenever it comes

Forced induction pro would be your class of that is the road we went down. That's about as unlimited as it gets. Cars run 7s in that class at ifo lol


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[LumberJack]

Originally Posted by Justin@Freektune Forced induction pro would be your class of that is the road we went down. That's about as unlimited as it gets. Cars run 7s in that class at ifo lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hence my FIP suggestion lol

[Captain KR]

fip sounds like something a black rapper would say but yes FIP FIP FIP

[Koke382]

Im in for stock turbo class

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[udntknw]

Watch that FIS class at IFO... we had one piece front-end low 9 second civics, chutes and all with back seats Ziptied to its cage...

[LumberJack]

Originally Posted by udntknw Watch that FIS class at IFO... we had one piece front-end low 9 second civics, chutes and all with back seats Ziptied to its cage...

I've watched it many times, but we can't have crazy complex rules for everything little thing. The simpler the better.

Turbo/Tire size, weight limits, and interior requirements

[udntknw]

Originally Posted by LumberJack I've watched it many times, but we can't have crazy complex rules for everything little thing. The simpler the better. Turbo/Tire size, weight limits, and interior requirements

Agreed. Simple would be better.

[08cosmic3]

So many potential variables, can't see how this will work except for the unlimited guys. Big potential for butt hurt and conflict. Still should happen but it may get ugly.

[aaronc7]

I'm always down for forum drama

[Darthspeed3]

In for the modified turbo class. time to buy a clutch.

[nindoja]

Originally Posted by xfeejayx Did you just ask for a participation trophy?

You know, when you put it that way... yes, I did. And that wasn't what I was intending.

I'll be chilling in my S3 or stock turbo class, depending on vehicle.

[xfeejayx]

Originally Posted by udntknw hahahaha... this is how we know the younger generation is moving into this platform...

I get the joke, but you have no idea how wrong you are about @nindoja; I was just giving him shit.

Originally Posted by Justin@Freektune I'll be stuck in the same class as Bryce and Shawn though. So I'll be the under dog. But it's all good.

We addressed that, already:

Originally Posted by xfeejayx Also, anticipating this Unlimited class: 1. Skinny Freek 2. Not so skinny Freek 3. Freek Classic

Originally Posted by Captain KR in for the unlimited class whenever it comes

:nailbitingexcitedsmiley:



edit:
just saw @superskaterxes; in the thread. He wants an LS class.

[udntknw]

Originally Posted by xfeejayx I get the joke, but you have no idea how wrong you are about @nindoja; I was just giving him shit.

Haha. I looked at his info after I replied... Been around for a while, so I then kicked myself in the ass as I figure he's been around for quite some time... But yeah, you get the idea.

[PapaSmurf]

If there is any type of elevation correction I will most likely be in.

Elevation is no joke, my uncorrected numbers on a 64mm turbo
(700whp on a day with a DA of 7000ft) hardly match those on 62mm turbos at lower elevation or sea level.

(Example of 798whp @ 1890ft this past weekend by Bryce on a 62mm).

Don't get me wrong power doesn't hold the weight of actually driving the car, but it does give a slight advantage.

The average DA here in Albuquerque right now ranges from 4000-6000ft, this easily doubles if not triples during the normal racing months with higher heat.

[Justin@Freektune]

Originally Posted by PapaSmurf If there is any type of elevation correction I will most likely be in. Elevation is no joke, my uncorrected numbers on a 64mm turbo (700whp on a day with a DA of 7000ft) hardly match those on 62mm turbos at lower elevation or sea level. (Example of 798whp @ 1890ft this past weekend by Bryce on a 62mm). Don't get me wrong power doesn't hold the weight of actually driving the car, but it does give a slight advantage. The average DA here in Albuquerque right now ranges from 4000-6000ft, this easily doubles if not triples during the normal racing months with higher heat.

Time for 67mm?

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by Justin@Freektune Time for 67mm?

my next step is a 72mm, but I need more rpm.

[Realgib3]

The Buschur Shootout is now in its 24th year and is extremely successful. I have been going for a loooong time and I personally think a tweaked version of their class setup would work really well for us. Most of this is just copy/pasted from this years class rules, but I'm obviously changing the platform names. I'm also removing any tire type/size requirements because A) We don't have a lot of options that fit anyway and B) FWD needs slicks, so I'm not about to limit anything to DR's.

------------------------------------
-STOCK TURBO-(ST)
-Any FWD/AWD- DISI MZR powered 3/6
-Car must retain stock appearing exhaust manifold.
-Turbo must use the stock bolt pattern from the exhaust manifold/header to the turbine housing and be located in the stock location.
-Turbo must retain STOCK compressor housing. This means bone stock turbo, S1, billet wheel upgraded k04's, etc. Nothing larger.
-External dumps are not permitted.
- Full exhaust exiting the rear of the vehicle is required.
-FMIC, intercooler plumbing, turbo inlet with air filter, small battery kits are all OK for this class.
-Two front seats, front door panels, full factory dash, center console and glove box door required.
-No Lexan.

-----------------------------------------------------------
-STOCK APPEARING TURBO-(SAT)
-Any FWD/AWD- DISI MZR powered 3/6
-Car may use any stock flanged exhaust manifold
-Turbo must use the stock bolt pattern from the exhaust manifold/header to the turbine housing and be located in the stock location.
-Turbo can have modified compressor housing. This means S3/4, CS, and ATP turbos.
-External dumps are permitted.
- Full exhaust exiting the rear of the vehicle is required.
-FMIC, intercooler plumbing, turbo inlet with air filter, small battery kits are all OK for this class.
-Two front seats, front door panels, full factory dash, center console and glove box door required.
-No Lexan.

--------------------------------------------------------
-QUICK STREET- (QS)
-Any FWD/AWD- DISI MZR powered 3/6
- Any exhaust manifold may be used
-OEM front and rear style/location suspension. Springs/coil overs/sway bars/control arms aftermarket are permitted.
-Exhaust may exit anywhere.
-Wastegates may exit anywhere.
-Two front seats, front door panels, full factory dash, center console and glove box door required.
-No Lexan.

-----------------------------------------

Some things to note:

-No turbo size restriction for QS class. There's a reason nobody runs anything bigger than a 64mm on these cars. You wanna throw a Super 99 on there and think it'll make you faster down the 1320, be my guest.

-No fuel restriction for any class. We're DI, meth/aux fuel should be allowed for anyone who wants to use it.

-No exact weight requirements. Most aren't serious enough to get their car weighed and good luck getting people to weigh their cars at tech before a race. The interior rules for all classes will allow enough weight reduction to make a difference, but require enough interior kept to make it fair across the board.

-If you are the person complaining because a 58mm, non-stock flanged turbo is included with the "big boys" (cause 62mm is so huge right? lol) then guess what, go swap to a 60 or 62mm turbo if you think that'll make you more competitive in the class. A 62mm size turbo is still insanely streetable (As you can easily see in @LumberJack; recent TQ curve), so no, upgrading to that size will not make you immediately a full race car.

One of the most interesting parts of the Shootout is the fact that people literally form their builds, choose their parts, etc, around these classes. I think instead of adding any more classes to appease the "tweeners", just use this structure to force some people to make some slight build changes. That's what makes it interesting.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts, as someone who's seen a similar setup work extremely well for another import community.

[Justin@Freektune]

Thats what I'm talking about Mark. I like that a lot to be honest. Hopefully everyone including Kevin can agree.