My MS6 VVT and chain fix (with an Added issue)

[troubled81]

Well sorry to bring this back to my car, but i have ordered CP pistons and K1 rods for the motor and well i was at it i got the injector seals.

So i hope that i will have the block and rotating bits to the machine shop for their required work.

[MaverickX3]

Originally Posted by chimmike Bind plugs= softest metal ever. Anyone have any ideas how to remove a stripped bind plug from the timing cover?

I'm guessing you stripped the one that gives you access to the tensioner right? Yeah, mine is pretty much done lol. I would leave it. My old tensioner was locking too tight (slightly stretched chain) so even if I got that blind plug off I wouldn't have been able to unlock the tension.

At that point I just said f'it and removed the timing chain cover. It sucks to take it off but worth it as you can check the whole shebang.

[troubled81]

well an update

I hope to have it all done for the end of november....

[MaverickX3]

Downpipe, AP, bearing: 5 hours. Connecting rods and pistons: 27 days lol


I can probably do the connecting rod and bearings in approx 4 hours with my air ratchet and taking breaks. Just make sure you place down all of your removed pieces and their bolts together. Saves about a day of looking for it later (ie, don't use your engine bay as a tool crib).

[MarineMazda]

Hey John,

Its good to see your build is coming along since we talked last in July! Hopefully Next summer we can have 2 MS6s at the Plaza. Will be down mid December and am doing some stuff to get ready for BT. Ill hit you up when I'm down there and maybe we can meet up for a small install Day.

[troubled81]

Sounds good.

The block and head are back from the machine shop wedensday. After that i just have to file the rings and put it together.

Oh one thing that is missing from the picture is the upgraded fuel pump that hasn't come in yet.

[MarineMazda]

What internals did ya get? MY Autotech ones came in this week.

[troubled81]

Ah i didn't know which way to go so i ordered the kmd.

[FORZDA 1]

You'll be fine with KMD.

[MarineMazda]

Ya was going to Order KMD but it was a hassle getting them here to Canada.

[troubled81]

update

made this


And did this




The head is done and ready to go. The Rings need to get filed and i hope to be putting a motor back in this car this coming weekend.

[Tokay444]

What did you plug in the block?

[troubled81]

I had the main oil gallary plugs/rivets (front and back) removed to make sure i cleaned it out really good after machining. Hard part about it is that there are oil passages to the main bearings, tensioner and head just 3/8" to 1/2" in. I had to carefully tap it to a depth were the plug wasn't blocking the passages and then machine the face of the plug down so that is was no more proud of the block then the factory pop rivets.

[Tabasco69]

that carbon is from the freash air inlet to the crankcase... shouldn't the air be going in not out?...


If you look at how the positive crankcase vent system is set up, the bottom end needs vacuum to pull slop, when you have any positive pressure in the IM manifold the little green one way check is going to close, only one place for it to vent then, right through the valve cover...I run a filter off the cover, during dyno runs I see oil mist coming out of that filter which verifies the above.

Pretty simple fix is to buy and install a vented dual port occ, and tap another bung to the valve cover, 2 ports will allow the crankcase equalize pressure under boost/positve pressure even when the bottom end vent system's has closed as by designed by the oem.

"And no i have never hydrolocked the motor, and there are no marks on the piston dome so there was no contact there.... Also i have never bounced the motor of the rev limiter or any thing like that... How does a forged steel rod bend without damaging the bearing or the piston..."

A forged rod does not fail like that, FYI not trying to be a smartass here but the only part of the rotating assembly that is forged is the crankshaft, the pistons and rods are cast, just like high end subaru sti's and evo that is why people need to be prudent when pushing a stock engine, they live and die on thier state of tune...oe's moved away from overbuilding along time ago, it is all about minimizing cost for them....some people get away with pushing far beyond the engineered safety margin, and some people don't away with it, kind of like playing russian roulette.

[Tokay444]

They are not cast.
They are powder forged which basically equates to them being sintered.

[Tabasco69]

Naw man, denial is a river, forged powder is cast.....
Big, big difference between true forged steel and forged powder-metal...it is light but it has the same inherent weakness as cast and in no way can it be compared to the strength of forged steel.

OBJECTIVE

•Evaluate and compare fatigue performance of forged steel and powder
metal connecting rods.

CONCLUSIONS

•Yield strength of forged steel is 19% higher than that for the powder
metal, while its ultimate tensile strength is 8% higher than that for the
powder metal.

•Specimen (material) testing shows long-life fatigue strength of the forged
steel to be 27% higher than that for the powder metal, results in about an
order of magnitude longer life than for the powder metal

.•Forged steel and PM component (connecting rod) testing indicates the
forged steel connecting rod exhibits 37% higher fatigue strength, resulting
in about two orders of magnitude longer life.

•For the PM connecting rods the crack origins appeared to be from either
the surface or subsurface, while for the forged steel connecting rods
cracks started subsurface.

•The S-N approach predictions are very good, if the predictions are based
on smooth surface finish, rather than forged surface finish. Predicted
fatigue lives for both forged steel as well as powder metal connecting rods
are within a factor of ±3 of the experimental lives.

•Stresses at critical locations, obtained by axial static FEA and
quasi-dynamic FEA differed by at least 10% to as high as 70%.

•Bending stress is significant. Near the crank end transition the bending
stress is 23% of the axial stress.

•Stress ratio is different for different locations on the connecting rod. Also,
multiaxialityis high especially in the transition regions making it necessary
to use equivalent stress approach to compute fatigue strength

.•A major driving force for the increased use of PM connecting rods has
been its cost effectiveness resulting from the fracture splitting of the cap
from the rod. Recent introduction of new materials such as C-70 and MA
splittable steels, results in lower manufacturing costs.

The main reason why powder metallurgy rods are superior is the weak link in the chain theory of engine construction, forged rods are all over the place as far as construction and shape are concerned. Powder rods are all the same no matter which rod you pull out of the barrel.

Of course this lets them make them lighter and more uniform. There is another property of powder metallurgy the manufacturers don't talk about much;

Impact toughness and notch sensitivity, as far as rods go they fall far behind in comparison to a common forged rod in these respects. Is it important? Sure if you are running nitromethane or lots of boost, definetly not recommended for racing because of this limitation (in stock configuration).
Powder parts are very sensitive to notching and do not tolerate material imperfections like a forged rod would. Steel used to forge rods ends up in a sense like a person, able to heal itself and realign it's grain structure if brought close to yield load levels, powder rods just suddenly break...there is no yield curve, just brittle fracture.

I have seen many fatigued powdered metal parts and you can see that they originate as fine metal powder, no grain structure whatsoever which is what gives a forged part it's strength. The lack of impacting the powdered stuff when it is near molten denies it the density that is part of a forgings integrity.

[Tokay444]

Casting is pouring liquid metal into a mould.
That does not happen with our rods or pistons.

I'm not denying anything.
That's how it is.

[MaverickX3]

Empirical evidence FTMFW!

[Tokay444]

I never said that powder forging or sintering was any better or worse than casting.
I certainly never said it was on par or better than forging, but the process does NOT equal casting.

[Tabasco69]

I r a machinist, I tend to ramble on about metallurgy/sry.

PM is superior in one important respect- uniformity, they do not have to be balanced individually which leads to less exspense, less tooling and mchining required, they are superior to cast in strength, to be honest I 'am surprized that the op's rod did not snap right in half because of the deflection of that rod ...IF a stronger alloy base was used they could be close to the same strength as forged steel, and these PM parts do exsist just not on any stock oe motor.

[Tokay444]

I r also aerospace machinist. Which is why I had to be so adamant about powder forging NOT being casting.

[troubled81]

[Tokay444]

Canada

[troubled81]

[jracer]

I r a machinist too !

[troubled81]

I wish i was a machinest, am not that good.

I just sorta know how to use some of the tools/machines and have them avalible to me.

[troubled81]

Well i got the braided clutch line from i forget who... and it only had one nut with its edge rounded off so i had to fix that...

Next i needed to get the old pilot bearing out of the clutch so pack the bearing full of grease

Pack a long 1/4" drive 10mm socket full of grease and hammer it in.

Repeat untill it comes out

Next use the front motor hanging bracket as your tool to hold the flywheel well you install and tighten the flywheel bolts/clutch.

Clutch installed


Now to prime the motor for the first start i rigged this $10 drill pump into the oil pressure sensor port and a tee'd in a 6 dollar gauge to make sure that i actually am doing something.

the tee fitting setup

new oil for the transfer case and trans

Motor waiting for its home...

[Tabasco69]

Yeah that is acool trick packing the bearing with grease and using hydrualic pressure to force it out, and wow your pretty anal with the oil priming, another way to prime -with the engine installed back in the car is to pull the injector and coil pack wires and bump it until the oil pressure gauge registers pressure....I do that on every oil change.

Devil's advocate/forgive me but why not replace the rear main seal, and did you replace the ttyl flywheel bolts?????

[Tokay444]

Heard flywheel bolts aren't ttyl.
Stand on the gas when cranking. Injectors shut off.

[troubled81]

that is a new rear main seal actually, and i did buy new bolts. With flywheels i don't like to gamble.

[troubled81]

Worst V-band in the world getting fixed.... again

[troubled81]

well i have driven about 150km and things are going good. the motor is running nice, i modified the cobb Stage2+SF+TIH 93 v200 to have 12psi of boost (0% wastegate duty cycle) a 5000rpm redline. So far the logs have looked good. due the the head work i think (i forgot to mention i did bowl work) the computer had to add 10% to the long term fuel trims. Since i haven't been beating on it i have just adjusted the MAF cal in the lower values (32 and under).

What is cool is that this car is building boost instantly, anything over 10-13% throttle = boost. one log showed 13psi at 2700rpm at 40%thottle car; wants to move.

The plan is to start doing full throttle stuff in about 350km. With the electric dump and a meth kit i am hoping this might be the fastest stock turbo MS6 next year.

[troubled81]

[Tech/Sales@EM]

[ALIEN3T]

Originally Posted by Tabasco69 Yeah that is acool trick packing the bearing with grease and using hydrualic pressure to force it out, and wow your pretty anal with the oil priming, another way to prime -with the engine installed back in the car is to pull the injector and coil pack wires and bump it until the oil pressure gauge registers pressure....I do that on every oil change. Devil's advocate/forgive me but why not replace the rear main seal, and did you replace the ttyl flywheel bolts?????

Sorry bumping old thread. was looking at VVT info.

But this. to prime motor for oil on MS3/6 hold gas pedal to full down and turn car over, Car is not suppose to start. BUt should produce the 10lbs of preassure to make oil light go off.

[JPR-MSP]

Tech/Sales@EM

I need the alignment tools... please somebody with PM privileges tell him that I need the tools...

Thanks,
JJ

[ducz17]

so i am sure ill get blaster for bringing up an dead thread, but. i went through very write up on this site and i have no other choice.


i am at the cranking portion of the job were i have completed everything using a forum write up from here, and using the help of a fellow speed member! the car will try its hardest to crank but nothing happens it chugs along and nothing.
new battery no blown fuses.
used the sure align plat(but the tdc bolt bent)
new spark plugs pre gaped at.32 ngk irridum whatever from autozone
I am out of ideas any constructive help besides thanks for post on an old thred or be would help

[Funkster777]

So it cranks, correct? Did you prime the fuel pump. I wouldn't think it would have lost pressure but your never know. Turn ignition on for a few seconds (until you hear the fuel pump priming), then repeat 10 times. I learned this from the all knowing beard.

[ducz17]

i did as you suggested still nothing. also i am getting the infamous p0091"spillvalve"code now so idk wtf is going on.

[ducz17]

so for the edit. i did as you suggested. and to nothing. i am also throwing a fantastic p0091 aka"the spill valve" code. now i have 86k on the pump but up graded internals. so im kinda stuck all around now