Injector seals solution. Version A

[sh4d0w]

Hey Tokay glad to have you back haven't had a chance to say Hi yet. So HI

[Mazd1222]

I did not install any injectors my car us leaking gas when cranked I'm suspecting something came loose with the fuel rail or injectors could the engine be flooded with gas

[Nel Mazdaspeed]

have you traced the leak location?

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[Mazd1222]

I will be removing the intake manifold this Sunday to take a look at the fuel rail and injectors
This all took place after an overheat issue thermostat housing literally melted and lost a lot of coolant as well

[Nel Mazdaspeed]

see if the fuel system will pressurized without turning over the car to find the leak before you dismantle...

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[Mazd1222]

Well when the car broke down from overheating I touched the high pressure fuel line and I heard a surge of fuel from the line again gas leaking from the engine it smells real strong from the power steering pump side of the engine

[Mazd1222]

Well when the car broke down from overheating I touched the high pressure fuel line and I heard a surge of fuel from the line again gas leaking from the engine it smells real strong from the power steering pump side of the engine

[stockms3]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 They round side faces the head, where the injectors go.

Um OK? Head is part of the long block so you are saying exactly same thing. Thanks for the correction man. You saved the day.

[leo766]

So I ordered what seemed to be the same part number, only diff is on this toyota site it had an extra 71 on the end of it for some reason, both of these fit the injector snugly, any suggestions on which set i should use, they are both allegedly toyota diesel injector gaskets like OP gave part # for before, I took two detailed pics if anyone wants any other angles or shots plz let me know, thx

I also included the baggies they came in, both were like no more than 3$ a gasket from either company I believe

[kbiz]

anyone ever try vw seals? just a thought

[paraplan]

I'm running complete stock Mazda CX-7 and need to replace injector seals. I was thinking about CP-E at first, but wanted to know your opinion if Toyota gaskets would do the work just fine for a stock car.
Also a few guys reported using hi-temp 400F max permatex with those seals. Does it improve anything? Isn't 400F sealant too low for such application?
It seems that 22ft-lbs is the golden ratio for the torque. Can someone also confirm this?

[paraplan]

Guys, please help! I put those Toyota gaskets on my injectors and did a compression test on each cylinder and it came really low. I mean re-eally low, 60 psi at the most. The convex side of the gasket is facing the cylinder bore and the flat side - the injector. Torqued to 25 ft. lbs. Don't know what to do, thinking about going stock but wonder how come people have success with those gaskets. Need your advise!

[stockms3]

Originally Posted by paraplan Guys, please help! I put those Toyota gaskets on my injectors and did a compression test on each cylinder and it came really low. I mean re-eally low, 60 psi at the most. The convex side of the gasket is facing the cylinder bore and the flat side - the injector. Torqued to 25 ft. lbs. Don't know what to do, thinking about going stock but wonder how come people have success with those gaskets. Need your advise!

I have been running Toyota seals on a MS3 with the mods in my signature for about 10k miles now. No problems.

Did you clean out the old gaskets? Leak down test would help you identify where you are losing pressure.

[paraplan]

Originally Posted by stockms3 I have been running Toyota seals on a MS3 with the mods in my signature for about 10k miles now. No problems. Did you clean out the old gaskets? Leak down test would help you identify where you are losing pressure.

Yes, I did very thorough cleaning of everything. I took the opportunity to clean intake valves with walnut shells while the manifold was off, so everything was very clean including the injector ports. I tried the leak test and it is clearly showing that there is a leak somewhere, possible injectors, but I cannot be 100% sure, I just hear quiet shss from that area. I did the leak and compression test before I attempted the repair and it was OK, so given that the only thing I did was servicing injectors and replacing seals, I have high reasons to suspect Toyota seals. I'm not sure though why they didn't work for me.

[stockms3]

Originally Posted by paraplan Yes, I did very thorough cleaning of everything. I took the opportunity to clean intake valves with walnut shells while the manifold was off, so everything was very clean including the injector ports. I tried the leak test and it is clearly showing that there is a leak somewhere, possible injectors, but I cannot be 100% sure, I just hear quiet shss from that area. I did the leak and compression test before I attempted the repair and it was OK, so given that the only thing I did was servicing injectors and replacing seals, I have high reasons to suspect Toyota seals. I'm not sure though why they didn't work for me.

Or you fucked something up during the valve cleaning if not pull the seals get the corksport ones.

Are you low on all 4 cylinders?
You sure you tested correctly (meaning intake/exhaust valves closed)?

[paraplan]

Originally Posted by stockms3 Or you fucked something up during the valve cleaning if not pull the seals get the corksport ones. Are you low on all 4 cylinders? You sure you tested correctly (meaning intake/exhaust valves closed)?

I first did a compression test, which does not require finding TDC. For the leak test, yes everything was at TDC. All cylinders give similar result.

As for the valve cleaning - walnut shells blasting is a BMW approved procedure, which I've done before. Not sure how this can be fucked up unless you are cleaning valves with a hammer.

One though: I used permatex non-hardening sealant as was suggested on this forum to make sure rings don't get loose and fall out. I used very little of it just on the flat side of the seals. As a wild guess, could it dry out before I torqued everything down? And if it did, could that be the cause of a problem?

[Tokay444]

Do a leak down.

[paraplan]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 Do a leak down.

I did it. See my post above.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by paraplan I did it. See my post above.

So where are you leaking?

[paraplan]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 So where are you leaking?

I suspect through bad injector seal. The sound comes off that area. Results are very consistent on all 4 cylinders. Before I removed the injectors I did the same test and there were no leaks.

[Tokay444]

I guess that's your answer then.

[paraplan]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 I guess that's your answer then.

My original question was not where I have the leak but why. You ask me questions that I have already posted answers for. My main question: why Toyota gaskets did not provide good sealing when I did everything according to the info provided in this thread:
1) convex side to the bore, flat to the injector
2) used non-hardening hi-temp 400F permatex to secure gaskets to injector
3) torqued to exactly 25 ft. lbs.

Did I miss something?

[Tokay444]

You fucked it up.
Who told you 25ft/lbs?

[paraplan]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 You fucked it up. Who told you 25ft/lbs?

25ft lbs was suggested right here in this thread. This guy is also suggesting the same torque:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4IvGIbAgM4

[Tokay444]

You've over crushed the seal by that point.
17ft/lbs on the crow's foot.

[paraplan]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 You've over crushed the seal by that point. 17ft/lbs on the crow's foot.

Interesting... 17ft lbs is a spec for OEM seals and people here said that it may not be enough to crush Toyota seals. I'll try this on new Toyota seals and report back.

[paraplan]

Originally Posted by paraplan Interesting... 17ft lbs is a spec for OEM seals and people here said that it may not be enough to crush Toyota seals. I'll try this on new Toyota seals and report back.

OK, I got new seals and torqued everything to 17 ft lbs. No permatex used this time. Without reassembling everything back I measured compression in each cylinder. This time the results I got are much better:

Dry test

Cyl 1 - 120 psi
Cyl 2 - 120 psi
Cyl 3 - 120 psi
Cyl 4 - 160 psi

Wet test (added a little bit of oil)

Cyl 1 - 125 psi
Cyl 2 - 125 psi
Cyl 3 - 125 psi
Cyl 4 - 165 psi

The compression in cylinders 1 - 3 is still kind of low, but the test was done on the engine that was never started after cleaning the valves.
I have two possible theories:

1) Valves may not be fully closing because some debris after cleaning got stuck to the valves. This should improve after first run as debris should burn and let the valves sit correctly.

2) 17 ft lbs is still too low. The consensus based on the post #597 is 20-25 ft lbs

Any thoughts? Should I just go ahead and put everything back together and try starting the car or try experimenting further with the torques?

[Tokay444]

Increased compression when wet points to rings. Not injector seals.

[GroceryGtr]

I torqued mine to 20lbs and have no issues. I doubt 25 deformed the seals and instead lean more towards the permatex being the culprit. Using a TINY dab as a retaining mechanism is fine, but anything more and/or expecting it to magically fill in microscopic gaps and hold under extreme pressure is just unicorn land dreams.

I think you're going the right direction with doing a test run. The Walnut procedure is approved by bmw and vw/audi as a maintenance repair, and I can tell you most techs run the vehicle around the block to get all the debris out of the valves. It can certainly hang a valve enough to leak and regardless of how well you vac and air gun it afterwards you will still have some particles left over. Run it around the block and then rerun the tests. That should be enough flow to blow anything out of the valve areas.

[Yatta]

Increased torque for stock or Toyota might be ok (or even a good idea) but I would expect the person that designed the 3rd option to have also accounted for expansion at torque... likely the parts are designed for optimal at OEM (17 ft/lbs) designation to prevent problems.... @Tokay444; I expect your seals (or the CS equivalent) state 17 ft/lbs? if so... why would anyone go above this *unless* they didn’t trust their torque wrench...

[aackthpt]

Originally Posted by Yatta if so... why would anyone go above this *unless* they didn’t trust their torque wrench...

Seriously? If you don't trust your torque wrench stop fucking around and get a trustworthy torque wrench. Setting things tighter because you don't trust a measuring tool is just asking for a failure that is a major pain in the ass to fix.

[Yatta]

Originally Posted by aackthpt Seriously? If you don't trust your torque wrench stop fucking around and get a trustworthy torque wrench. Setting things tighter because you don't trust a measuring tool is just asking for a failure that is a major pain in the ass to fix.

preaching to the choir... but I have dropped one

[paraplan]

Originally Posted by GroceryGtr I torqued mine to 20lbs and have no issues. I doubt 25 deformed the seals and instead lean more towards the permatex being the culprit. Using a TINY dab as a retaining mechanism is fine, but anything more and/or expecting it to magically fill in microscopic gaps and hold under extreme pressure is just unicorn land dreams. I think you're going the right direction with doing a test run. The Walnut procedure is approved by bmw and vw/audi as a maintenance repair, and I can tell you most techs run the vehicle around the block to get all the debris out of the valves. It can certainly hang a valve enough to leak and regardless of how well you vac and air gun it afterwards you will still have some particles left over. Run it around the block and then rerun the tests. That should be enough flow to blow anything out of the valve areas.

Exactly! I put back the bare minimum parts to start the engine and ran it idle for about 15 minutes. Then repeated the compression test while the engine was still warm and ...

Cyl 1 - 180 psi
Cyl 2 - 175 psi
Cyl 3 - 162 psi
Cyl 4 - 185 psi

So definitely problem #1 was the permatex (actually it was mostly me letting it harden before torquing the injectors ), problem #2 compression test is not accurate after doing valve cleaning.
I hope that 17 ft lbs that I used this time is sufficient for Toyota seals...

BTW, after I cleaned the valves the compression is about 10% better than what it used to be before the cleaning. Cylinder 3 is a little low but still within the Mazda spec and the difference between 4 and 3 is within the spec as well.

[paraplan]

Originally Posted by Yatta Increased torque for stock or Toyota might be ok (or even a good idea) but I would expect the person that designed the 3rd option to have also accounted for expansion at torque... likely the parts are designed for optimal at OEM (17 ft/lbs) designation to prevent problems.... @Tokay444; I expect your seals (or the CS equivalent) state 17 ft/lbs? if so... why would anyone go above this *unless* they didn’t trust their torque wrench...

Yes, I was also thinking about the expansion under high temps. Hopefully 17 ft lbs that I used second time will not result in injector leaking...

[Titang9]

So, the final consensus is 17ft/lb for Toyota seals?

[Atomic41]

Originally Posted by paraplan Exactly! I put back the bare minimum parts to start the engine and ran it idle for about 15 minutes. Then repeated the compression test while the engine was still warm and ... Cyl 1 - 180 psi Cyl 2 - 175 psi Cyl 3 - 162 psi Cyl 4 - 185 psi So definitely problem #1 was the permatex (actually it was mostly me letting it harden before torquing the injectors ), problem #2 compression test is not accurate after doing valve cleaning. I hope that 17 ft lbs that I used this time is sufficient for Toyota seals... BTW, after I cleaned the valves the compression is about 10% better than what it used to be before the cleaning. Cylinder 3 is a little low but still within the Mazda spec and the difference between 4 and 3 is within the spec as well.

So if I got these number :

Cyl 1 - 180 psi
Cyl 2 - 180 psi
Cyl 3 - 160 psi
Cyl 4 - 180 psi

I'm fine too ??? I'm around 11% difference between all my others cylinders

[paraplan]

Originally Posted by Atomic41 So if I got these number : Cyl 1 - 180 psi Cyl 2 - 180 psi Cyl 3 - 160 psi Cyl 4 - 180 psi I'm fine too ??? I'm around 11% difference between all my others cylinders

According to the spec the maximum allowed difference between cylinders is 28.5 psi. You have 20 psi, which should be fine.

Originally Posted by Titang9 So, the final consensus is 17ft/lb for Toyota seals?

Mazda OEM spec is 15.9 - 18.8 ft lbs, so if I were to do it again, I'd pick the upper limit of 18.8