Causes/Solutions: Smoking turbo after DP Install

[kgb]

I realize this has been discussed over different threads, but what I would like to do with this thread is give people solid solutions to defeat this problem. I left the (A)nswer column to be filled in be all of you...and feel free to add/correct the questions and fixes.

Scenario: Install DP to complete TBE (the DP is a separate piece)


Problem: Smoking Turbo

Q: Does the DP cause the smoke or reveal what was already there?

A: ?

Fix: Oil Catch Can, 5w 40 oil, New Turbo?,


Q: Can a leak at the DP/RP connection or RP/CBE connection help cause the smoking or
just make it more obvious?

A: ?

Fix: Realign the connections, have a shop seal all leaks, doesn't cause smoking, just reveals
it closer to engine????


Q: Does this mean I could get the turbo replaced under warranty despite my mods or will
the dealer blame the turbo smoking on my mods?

A: ?

Fix: Depends on dealer?, remove mods, find cool dealer


Q: I get smoke only during the first 5 minutes of idling. Not only from the TP, but coming
out of my engine too. Is this normal for a smoking turbo? Could it be the bad
connection between the RP/DP?

A: ?

Fix: ?


Q: Why does the smoking go away after 5 minutes?

A: ?

Fix: ?

Thanks guys...

[gsrtype1]

I'm wondering if I get a dp will I have to install catch can? ive had a test pipe on for like 20,000 miles with no issues.

[kgb]

Originally Posted by gsrtype1 I'm wondering if I get a dp will I have to install catch can? ive had a test pipe on for like 20,000 miles with no issues.

I had no smoking issues with a testpipe either...

However, I think I have a leak with my CS TP/DP connection...they sent me bolts that would not work with the stock springs so I had to improvise a solution...nevertheless, I can still feel a bit of exhaust at that connection.

[socks]

smoke in the engine bay? Ive only seen that (in relation to the turbo/exhaust) after exhaust work has been done, and youve been touching stuff with oily hands.

[kgb]

Originally Posted by Speed3shon smoke in the engine bay? Ive only seen that (in relation to the turbo/exhaust) after exhaust work has been done, and youve been touching stuff with oily hands.

Ya, I installed a CS DP....but you think that is oil or maybe the pblaster burning off? I wonder if the exhaust fumes from the DP/RP connection is heading up towards the engine?

[pidass]

Originally Posted by kgb Ya, I installed a CS DP....but you think that is oil or maybe the pblaster burning off? I wonder if the exhaust from the DP/RP connection is heading up towards the engine?

if you're still getting smoke in the engine bay after a few hundred miles then you probably have an exhaust leak, either where the dp connects to the turbo or the dp-tp connection. otherwise if it's doing it right after you put it on then it may be stuff just burning off so give it a little time.

[pidass]

This car needs a OCC anyways so really, if you're smoking or not, you should consider an OCC as a cheap supporting mod that may help with things.

Otherwise using 5w40 is another easy thing you can do if you're smoking.

After these two things it's really hard to say what's causing the smoking, the going census is bad turbo seals so the only way to fix it is get a rebuild kit, SST, or BT.

[mdogg]

Originally Posted by pidass After these two things it's really hard to say what's causing the smoking, the going census is bad turbo seals so the only way to fix it is get a rebuild kit, SST, or BT.

The only thing I've seen that has worked EVERY SINGLE TIME is a BT.
SSTs, new turbo from Mazda, heavier oil, CC, etc, have all had cases of smoking.

[kgb]

Originally Posted by mdogg The only thing I've seen that has worked EVERY SINGLE TIME is a BT. SSTs, new turbo from Mazda, heavier oil, CC, etc, have all had cases of smoking.

I'm sorry to ask but what exactly is BT and SST?

[mdogg]

Originally Posted by kgb I'm sorry to ask but what exactly is BT and SST?

BT = big turbo
SST = super stock turbo (PTP's name for their ported/big-wheel K04; PG has the same thing but just calls it a ported or reworked stock turbo)

[06Speed6]

I have a catless DP, 75k miles, original turbo, I run 5w30 mobil or 5w40 castrol euro, and no smoke. I drive the wheels off of my car and idle my car at the beach for hours with my stereo on and I have never once seen anything other than black smoke.

The catch is that I am running the stock boost control with my stock turbo and my car maxes out with 13psi in warm weather and sometimes less than 10psi in cold weather. I *really* think that most of the guys who are having turbo problems are the guys who are running some form of boost control and are simply over spinning the turbo and blowing the seals. Every engine mod I put on this car it boosts less and less and if you guys are still pushing it to 18psi there is no way that puny turbo is within spec anymore.

Basically, in 90%+ of the cases out there, when someone posts about a turbo smoking it is not going to be a turbo problem, it is going to be a user problem. This part is well known to be at its max reliable capability from the factory and if someone exceeds that and blows the seals and/or bearings it is their fault.

[kgb]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 I have a catless DP, 75k miles, original turbo, I run 5w30 mobil or 5w40 castrol euro, and no smoke. I drive the wheels off of my car and idle my car at the beach for hours with my stereo on and I have never once seen anything other than black smoke. The catch is that I am running the stock boost control with my stock turbo and my car maxes out with 13psi in warm weather and sometimes less than 10psi in cold weather. I *really* think that most of the guys who are having turbo problems are the guys who are running some form of boost control and are simply over spinning the turbo and blowing the seals. Every engine mod I put on this car it boosts less and less and if you guys are still pushing it to 18psi there is no way that puny turbo is within spec anymore. Basically, in 90%+ of the cases out there, when someone posts about a turbo smoking it is not going to be a turbo problem, it is going to be a user problem. This part is well known to be at its max reliable capability from the factory and if someone exceeds that and blows the seals and/or bearings it is their fault.

So what you're saying is the AP maps I am using is allowing the boost to remain high, causing wear and tear. So going back to stock maps would lower my boost and maybe help reduce/remove smoke assuming permanent damage hasn't been done?

I don't drive my car hard. No drags and only a couple street races in 9 months. I didn't get smoke until the DP ...but why would the smoke go away after 5 minutes?

[Eazy]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 I *really* think that most of the guys who are having turbo problems are the guys who are running some form of boost control and are simply over spinning the turbo and blowing the seals. Every engine mod I put on this car it boosts less and less and if you guys are still pushing it to 18psi there is no way that puny turbo is within spec anymore.

No boost control, and i smoke like a god damned chimney.... I know a couple others on stock boost that smoke too... I say that theory is wrong. How the hell are you boosting less? with my mods (see sig) I spike to ~20-21 and very slowly taper off to ~15

[kgb]

Originally Posted by Eazy No boost control, and i smoke like a god damned chimney.... I know a couple others on stock boost that smoke too... I say that theory is wrong. How the hell are you boosting less? with my mods (see sig) I spike to ~20-21 and very slowly taper off to ~15

Eazy...how long have you smoked and does it go away after 5 or 10 minutes? My main thing is getting my RP/DP connection sealed because I am getting serious smoke from my engine and venting system if I don't have it on recirc....carbon monoxide ftl

[TurboGhost]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 I have a catless DP, 75k miles, original turbo, I run 5w30 mobil or 5w40 castrol euro, and no smoke. I drive the wheels off of my car and idle my car at the beach for hours with my stereo on and I have never once seen anything other than black smoke. The catch is that I am running the stock boost control with my stock turbo and my car maxes out with 13psi in warm weather and sometimes less than 10psi in cold weather. I *really* think that most of the guys who are having turbo problems are the guys who are running some form of boost control and are simply over spinning the turbo and blowing the seals. Every engine mod I put on this car it boosts less and less and if you guys are still pushing it to 18psi there is no way that puny turbo is within spec anymore. Basically, in 90%+ of the cases out there, when someone posts about a turbo smoking it is not going to be a turbo problem, it is going to be a user problem. This part is well known to be at its max reliable capability from the factory and if someone exceeds that and blows the seals and/or bearings it is their fault.

I'll stir the pot a little ;-)
i) The rumor mill has it that the engine was originally developed for 330hp, then Madza decided to down-tune it to 270 (263 or 274 if u want to split hairs). It's well known that throttle never opens 100% and closes down at 5500. So there's probably <some> additional capacity in the turbo. Also keep in mind that most people with light mods are going to reach above the stock peak hp for maybe 30 seconds per day.

ii) Board chatter has it that stock cars with catback often smoke, some smoke with the factory exhaust. The smoke is temporarily cured by replacing the turbo, so it must have something to do with the turbo seal.

iii) It is said that the stock turbo has a type of seal that's suceptible to leakage when there's little back pressure, or tends to leak, period. Never taken one apart, I'm repeating what I've seen written elsewhere.

It wouldn't surprise me that there's an issue with the stock turbo if the exhaust is uncorked. Mazda doesn't seem to have built in any consideration for mods, unlike, say, a Mustang V8 where Ford developed a dealer installed supercharger kit.

[bnoon]

Originally Posted by TurboGhost I'll stir the pot a little ;-) i) The rumor mill has it that the engine was originally developed for 330hp, then Madza decided to down-tune it to 270 (263 or 274 if u want to split hairs). It's well known that throttle never opens 100% and closes down at 5500. So there's probably <some> additional capacity in the turbo. Also keep in mind that most people with light mods are going to reach above the stock peak hp for maybe 30 seconds per day. ii) Board chatter has it that stock cars with catback often smoke, some smoke with the factory exhaust. The smoke is temporarily cured by replacing the turbo, so it must have something to do with the turbo seal. iii) It is said that the stock turbo has a type of seal that's suceptible to leakage when there's little back pressure, or tends to leak, period. Never taken one apart, I'm repeating what I've seen written elsewhere. It wouldn't surprise me that there's an issue with the stock turbo if the exhaust is uncorked. Mazda doesn't seem to have built in any consideration for mods, unlike, say, a Mustang V8 where Ford developed a dealer installed supercharger kit.

Feedback on iii for you. I never smoked until I did the downpipe and racepipe install. I have Turbo XS catless DP/RP with stock cat-back. The smoking was immediate, on the first trip home from getting it installed. Swapped to 5w-40 and it lowered it some, installed an air/water intercooler and it lowered the amount of smoke even more. I still get the burning smell, but visible smoke is hardly detected any more.

This tells me there's a pressure difference problem with the seals. I never went over stock boost until a couple of months after the exhaust and intercooler install and the higher boost didn't change the oil burning problem one bit.

Prior to the exhaust install, there was no burning oil. The oil level remained full through each service at 3000 miles. With the oil burning now, I top off a couple of times and usually add about 1/2 qt between each change. Thinking 20W-50 or 15W-50 at next oil change for summer now...

[kgb]

Damn...I am dreading the first 5 minutes of my commute home today...I am going to get a Catch can first, then 5w - 40 oil. If all else fails, I may go back to stock...to early for me to really gage all this though...

[Eazy]

I got the CS DP used, installed 2 weeks ago. After the motor is warm and I've been driving, if I idle, it starts pouring thick blue/grey smoke (that doesn't smell like oil...wtf?) Or if I go WOT I usually leave a nice trail of smoke. I've never let it sit and idle while smoking for longer than a couple minutes (usually in a drivethrough)

[mazdaj]

i dont buy the overboost theory.....how does that explain all the stockers smoking and even all the cx-7's smoking??? our turbo is a junky borg warner and that is the only explanation that fits!

anyway, if you guys need a cool dealer and you are within warranty and in the northeast, pm me and i can refer you to an awesome dealer. no questions asked, turbos replaced, and doesnt matter if you have mods or not. the last person i sent there got a ne cp-e dp and he started smoking like hell and they patched him up with a new turbo......

[kgb]

Originally Posted by mazdaj i dont buy the overboost theory.....how does that explain all the stockers smoking and even all the cx-7's smoking??? our turbo is a junky borg warner and that is the only explanation that fits! anyway, if you guys need a cool dealer and you are within warranty and in the northeast, pm me and i can refer you to an awesome dealer. no questions asked, turbos replaced, and doesnt matter if you have mods or not. the last person i sent there got a ne cp-e dp and he started smoking like hell and they patched him up with a new turbo......

....man...I have read where dealers seem to know about the turbo smoking problem...about the dealer, I live in Tampa so it's no go for me but thanks for the offer

Well, like I said before, I'm getting a OCC then if need be 5w - 40, then replace the turbo seal/or gasket to DP...hope I can find a cool, or better yet, reasonable dealer.

[pidass]

Originally Posted by kgb ....man...I have read where dealers seem to know about the turbo smoking problem...about the dealer, I live in Tampa so it's no go for me but thanks for the offer Well, like I said before, I'm getting a OCC then if need be 5w - 40, then replace the turbo seal/or gasket to DP...hope I can find a cool, or better yet, reasonable dealer.

this is exactly the reason I've avoiding the dp like the plague.

[kgb]

I'm thinking about getting a JM FABRICATIONS DELUXE POLISHED OIL CATCHCAN (UNIVERSAL).

But it gives three options about the following: 8AN Fittings,10AN Fittings
12AN Fittings....is there a certain one I should use?...

[kgb]

I ordered a OCC...but I am thinking about going to the dealer about the smoke.....but I really haven't got a consensus about whether or not the dp causes the smoke or just reveals a problem with the turbo...

Geez I wish I knew more about this car and cars in general before I did the DP.

[pidass]

Originally Posted by kgb I ordered a OCC...but I am thinking about going to the dealer about the smoke.....but I really haven't got a consensus about whether or not the dp causes the smoke or just reveals a problem with the turbo... Geez I wish I knew more about this car and cars in general before I did the DP.

This is the great catch-22. You go to the dealer complaining about the smoke they're gonna tell you it's because of your dp. You put your stock dp back on and it hides the smoke so you no longer have a visible problem.

Wonderful isn't it?

[ATAZ]

fewwwf, I was just about to order a DP....

[kgb]

Originally Posted by ATAZ fewwwf, I was just about to order a DP....

...well...here's the thing; I'm not sure if the downpipe install causes the smoke or the reveals the problem coming from the turbo...others haven't had this problem...I have a racepipe but no aftermarket bpv...I am using 5w-30 amsoil synthetic that didn't smoke before the dp install...and like I mentioned before, I just ordered a OCC...I will eventually change to 5w-40 oil..hope all this helps!!!!!!!

I will let everyone know how the OCC works when I receive it later this week or next.

[bnoon]

Originally Posted by kgb ...well...here's the thing; I'm not sure if the downpipe install causes the smoke or the reveals the problem coming from the turbo...others haven't had this problem...I have a racepipe but no aftermarket bpv...I am using 5w-30 amsoil synthetic that didn't smoke before the dp install...and like I mentioned before, I just ordered a OCC...I will eventually change to 5w-40 oil..hope all this helps!!!!!!! I will let everyone know how the OCC works when I receive it later this week or next.

Please read my reply above. The DP's lower pressure causes it, at least it did on mine. I always monitor oil level, MPG, etc and I NEVER had any oil level issues until I did the DP/RP install. Now I add a few ounces every few weeks, which adds to about 1/2 a quart every 3000 mile oil change interval.

To get the best results with a DP, get a catted one. Also get some kind of aftermarket intercooler as my oil/smoking problem was much better after installing my air/water unit. Also, you can run up to 20w-50 in summer months and 10w-40 in winter. Catch cans can help too from what some people say, but I still don't have one yet to make my own opinion.

[kgb]

Originally Posted by bnoon Please read my reply above. The DP's lower pressure causes it, at least it did on mine. I always monitor oil level, MPG, etc and I NEVER had any oil level issues until I did the DP/RP install. Now I add a few ounces every few weeks, which adds to about 1/2 a quart every 3000 mile oil change interval. To get the best results with a DP, get a catted one. Also get some kind of aftermarket intercooler as my oil/smoking problem was much better after installing my air/water unit. Also, you can run up to 20w-50 in summer months and 10w-40 in winter. Catch cans can help too from what some people say, but I still don't have one yet to make my own opinion.

Thanks...if the OCC and 10w-50 oil doesn't help then a catted DP may be my next choice.

[pidass]

Another thing that may help if it is indeed a pressure difference for the seals is getting a turbo inlet as some people have said that has helped but I would definitely wait to see what happens after installing the occ and using 5w-40.