Injector seals

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Dr. FuelPump What idea did he steal? The seals? One could assume that this silver demon guy could have stolen the idea from PTP? I don't know all the details, but I recived my parts, they worked and worked well.

lol, you don't know all the details... except you know all the fucking details you idiot.



GET THE FUCK OFF OUR FORUM YOU TRASHY SLEAZEBALL VENDOR

[spnkr21]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon This is a pic of the injector for the powerstroke diesel. This is why you do not see failures in the diesel injector seals like we do....The injector is held captive by 2 different sets of o-rings and it looks to be bolted in place, not to mention the multiple shoulders on the nozzle. Meaning the injector has no chance of movement, which is where the problem originates from in the MZR's application. The ports on the MZR head simply does not allow the injector to held stable once the combustion pressure rises. There is about .017" of space around the base of the MZR injector.

Good find there Scott.

Yea, like Silverdemon didn't do all his homework first. Don't question msf gods.

Support our community not these other BS companies like ptp.

[Amazon]

GTFO JOHN FAGGOT

[kmac]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon This is a pic of the injector for the powerstroke diesel. This is why you do not see failures in the diesel injector seals like we do....The injector is held captive by 2 different sets of o-rings and it looks to be bolted in place, not to mention the multiple shoulders on the nozzle. Meaning the injector has no chance of movement, which is where the problem originates from in the MZR's application. The ports on the MZR head simply does not allow the injector to held stable once the combustion pressure rises. There is about .017" of space around the base of the MZR injector.

I don't know man,I don't think the inj seals are blowing from the .017 space and the allowance to move slightly. I personal think the factory seals suck anus and the main problem is the shit cast crows feet. I don't think It's movement,I think It's deflection due to the shit hold downs. The increased cyl pressure is causing the crows feet to flex , think with a set of billet this problem will no longer be a problem. I'm working on a set now with someone to make these and I'll see what happens. Also I do think you are an innovator and make some nice shit so keep up the good work. This platform needs people to push limits.

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by kmac I don't know man,I don't think the inj seals are blowing from the .017 space and the allowance to move slightly. I personal think the factory seals suck anus and the main problem is the shit cast crows feet. I don't think It's movement,I think It's deflection due to the shit hold downs. The increased cyl pressure is causing the crows feet to flex , think with a set of billet this problem will no longer be a problem. I'm working on a set now with someone to make these and I'll see what happens. Also I do think you are an innovator and make some nice shit so keep up the good work. This platform needs people to push limits.

I have explored the billet version of the crows feet.... I have found out that it does not matter what you make the crows feet out of. It all has to do with the fulcrum of the crows foot itself. The distance of the fulcrum from the torx bolt determines the pressure applied to the injector itself. Increase the fulcrum distance from the torx bolt, and the amount pressure applied is multiplied. Since increasing the distance of the fulcrum is not an option (unless a very complicated setup is done to mill a flat on the head) stabilizing the injector in the head with a cup design while incorporating a sealing surface will be the best path to take. Give me a minuet and I will post pictures that show the movement of the injectors that damage the bore.

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by kmac I don't know man,I don't think the inj seals are blowing from the .017 space and the allowance to move slightly. I personal think the factory seals suck anus and the main problem is the shit cast crows feet. I don't think It's movement,I think It's deflection due to the shit hold downs. The increased cyl pressure is causing the crows feet to flex , think with a set of billet this problem will no longer be a problem. I'm working on a set now with someone to make these and I'll see what happens. Also I do think you are an innovator and make some nice shit so keep up the good work. This platform needs people to push limits.

SD and kmac are two very knowledgeable dudes and I'm glad we are soon to over come this problem.

i'll be ordering a set of those ford seals and hopefully when kmac completes the billet crows feet i'll be smart enough to follow...

nice work guys... SD and kmac.

[SilverDemon]

.

[kmac]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon I have explored the billet version of the crows feet.... I have found out that it does not matter what you make the crows feet out of. It all has to do with the fulcrum of the crows foot itself. The distance of the fulcrum from the torx bolt determines the pressure applied to the injector itself. Increase the fulcrum distance from the torx bolt, and the amount pressure applied is multiplied. Since increasing the distance of the fulcrum is not an option (unless a very complicated setup is done to mill a flat on the head) stabilizing the injector in the head with a cup design while incorporating a sealing surface will be the best path to take. Give me a minuet and I will post pictures that show the movement of the injectors that damage the bore.

I do understand about the foot needing to be longer for added pressure ,but I don't think It's more torque needed to keep them from blowing. I believe that the foot is flexing so a different material would keep it from flexing. Which if t does flex it would cause the inj to walk. Now the pictures look like the seal was blown so long it disintegrated which would now leave plenty of room for the inj to walk around and beat the shit out of the inj hole. If the seal was absent the crows foot would now no longer have enough torque on it to keep it in place. Plus the inj is harder than the head so if it were to walk it would destroy the seat and hole. Nice pics though that shit is wrecked.

[SilverDemon]

Any evidence of the crows foot flexing?

[kmac]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon Any evidence of the crows foot flexing?

Yup,I took my hood off and put a dial indicator on the inj and watched it move. No I'm just kidding . I have no proof I'm just letting u know what I think. That picture to me also doesn't look like inj walk due to inj not being held steady,it looks like the seal blew out and now u had to little torque to hold it in place as well as excess Clarence inthe inj hole. Which wto me ould cause that out come. That picture doesn't prove the inj walking due to the seal design to me.

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by kmac Yup,I took my hood off and put a dial indicator on the inj and watched it move. No I'm just kidding . I have no proof I'm just letting u know what I think. That picture to me also doesn't look like inj walk due to inj not being held steady,it looks like the seal blew out and now u had to little torque to hold it in place as well as excess Clarence inthe inj hole. Which wto me ould cause that out come. That picture doesn't prove the inj walking due to the seal design to me.

Are you suggesting the seal is what holds the pressure against the crows foot? and without the seal the injector will now be loose in the bore?

[kmac]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon Are you suggesting the seal is what holds the pressure against the crows foot? and without the seal the injector will now be loose in the bore?

I am telling u not implying, if the seal blew out there would be more clearance in the bore and there would be less torque on the inj. It would not be loose to no torque where u could move it easily. with that much pressure on it its probably enough to walk it all over causing the damage u see in front of u.

[FORZDA 1]

Originally Posted by kmac I am telling u not implying, if the seal blew out there would be more clearance in the bore and there would be less torque on the inj. It would not be loose to no torque where u could move it easily. with that much pressure on it its probably enough to walk it all over causing the damage u see in front of u.

I think you're missing the point, at least the way I see it. The FACT is that the injector is not held firmly in ALL directions and that injector MOVEMENT/rocking leads to seal failure as cylinder pressure goes well beyond OEM values. The crows foot hold-down DESIGN is likely a contributor as it doesn't fix the injector well enough, REGARDLESS of the materials used.

IMO, the OEM seal design is just fine for much higher pressures IF the injector is fixed in place and not allowed to move in ANY direction. The SD design will act as both seal and stabilizing fixture that will allow the OEM crows foot to hold the injector well enough to prevent the seal-killing motion. Just my take on the issue....

I will soon have a set of the Ford seals, which appear to be incredibly similar to spark plug gaskets in the parts photos. That tells me they are expected to "crush" to conform very similar to the OEM design.

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by kmac I am telling u not implying, if the seal blew out there would be more clearance in the bore and there would be less torque on the inj. It would not be loose to no torque where u could move it easily. with that much pressure on it its probably enough to walk it all over causing the damage u see in front of u.

hahahahaha!! OK man

[kmac]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon hahahahaha!! OK man

Do tour self a favor torque something down onto a shim now pull that shim out se if it is still the same. I'll bet u its different and if u don't believe that than u are smoking some shit.

[kmac]

Originally Posted by FORZDA 1 I think you're missing the point, at least the way I see it. The FACT is that the injector is not held firmly in ALL directions and that injector MOVEMENT/rocking leads to seal failure as cylinder pressure goes well beyond OEM values. The crows foot hold-down DESIGN is likely a contributor as it doesn't fix the injector well enough, REGARDLESS of the materials used. IMO, the OEM seal design is just fine for much higher pressures IF the injector is fixed in place and not allowed to move in ANY direction. The SD design will act as both seal and stabilizing fixture that will allow the OEM crows foot to hold the injector well enough to prevent the seal-killing motion. Just my take on the issue.... I will soon have a set of the Ford seals, which appear to be incredibly similar to spark plug gaskets in the parts photos. That tells me they are expected to "crush" to conform very similar to the OEM design.

Ok,I got u there is no doubt in my mind he is very smart and very intuitive. I'm also sure his seals are great,but my personal opinion is the crows foot shit ass design is the main culprit and any seal that is quality made will not blow.

[djuosnteisn]

We explored the whole crow's foot avenue quite a while ago. IIRC, the thread ended with SD's new design for seals.

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn We explored the whole crow's foot avenue quite a while ago. IIRC, the thread ended with SD's new design for seals.

I think we ran into a pre-load on the bolt issue. IIRC increasing the pre-load as is risks stripping the head. Any improvement would require drilling the bolt hole and installing a large steel insert so we could increase the torque and thus the preload.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[11cruzito11]

I'm back to OEM injector seals, the prototype version2 seals from pt-p that I was running one of them started to leak.

Scott, put me on the list for a set of seals from you!

[SilverDemon]

Gotcha man!!!

[11cruzito11]

Look at the pics of my leaking seal.

[djuosnteisn]

cyl 3 eh? shit that bore looks pretty bad. Sorry bout the troubles man.

[11cruzito11]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn cyl 3 eh? shit that bore looks pretty bad. Sorry bout the troubles man.

Yeah #3 it is. What do you mean the bore looks bad?

[jracer]

Originally Posted by 11cruzito11 Look at the pics of my leaking seal.

what power you making ?? when seal blew ??

[NJSPEED3]

The bore is where the seal sits.

Since the material of the seal is much harder than the aluminum material of the head it grinds away at the bore. You may need a new head that does look pretty bad Carlos sorry man. I know Scott has been looking into using a product from loctite with his seals im not sure if that will help with your issue. I wouldnt be surprised if your stock seals on #3 will leak as well. Try to mellow out your tune until you have this figured out bud.

[11cruzito11]

Originally Posted by jracer what power you making ?? when seal blew ??

Last time i dyno'd i did 385 but the seal has been leaking for a while now, I might just be 1 bad seal from the set, the others are not leaking.

Originally Posted by NJSPEED3 The bore is where the seal sits. Since the material of the seal is much harder than the aluminum material of the head it grinds away at the bore. You may need a new head that does look pretty bad Carlos sorry man. I know Scott has been looking into using a product from loctite with his seals im not sure if that will help with your issue. I wouldnt be surprised if your stock seals on #3 will leak as well. Try to mellow out your tune until you have this figured out bud.

Yea, I'm going to take it easy from now on until I get a new set of seals.

[NJSPEED3]

Scott what's the loctite product that you suggested using with the seals bud?

[SilverDemon]

Loctite 518 was the first sealant I was looking at, but it seems that permatex #2 has a higher temperature range with the same flexible/removable properties as the 518 does, it's also easier to find the permetex at auto parts stores.

[Boosted Beluga]

Should we put the loctite on both the inside and outside of the seal?

[SilverDemon]

The loctite/permetex idea was for cruzito, he had problems with one of the seals leaking. Now, I do not know how the seals were made that cruzito had, but I had suggested to him to try one of those products, he had no success with stopping the injector from bypassing a bit of exhaust gas. So, was it defect in the seal, or was the port worn too much? I do not know.

[gerry@ardesign]

Love my gearheads!!

[tbot]

Originally Posted by gerry@ardesign Love my gearheads!!

Can I thank this...I'm not a gear head

[11cruzito11]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon The loctite/permetex idea was for cruzito, he had problems with one of the seals leaking. Now, I do not know how the seals were made that cruzito had, but I had suggested to him to try one of those products, he had no success with stopping the injector from bypassing a bit of exhaust gas. So, was it defect in the seal, or was the port worn too much? I do not know.

One thing I do remember about the seals I was running is that two of them (cylinder#3 was one) the seal fit into the injector was veryyy tight. I remember PTP telling both spnkr21 and I to heat the seals a bit to be able to insert the seal in the injector. When I took off injector #3 the seal was stuck in the injector, I had to use some plyers to remove it out. Maybe seal size too small/tight?

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by Ziggo I think we ran into a pre-load on the bolt issue. IIRC increasing the pre-load as is risks stripping the head. Any improvement would require drilling the bolt hole and installing a large steel insert so we could increase the torque and thus the preload.

No the bolt is stretch to yield and cannot be over torqued without failure. I also spent several weeks looking for a vendor for a stud but no one makes the diameter and length needed.

Originally Posted by 11cruzito11 One thing I do remember about the seals I was running is that two of them (cylinder#3 was one) the seal fit into the injector was veryyy tight. I remember PTP telling both spnkr21 and I to heat the seals a bit to be able to insert the seal in the injector. When I took off injector #3 the seal was stuck in the injector, I had to use some plyers to remove it out. Maybe seal size too small/tight?

The PTP seal is crap. Iirc it is flat out .002" too thin to even fill the gap between the inj and the bottom of the injector bore so its going to leak no matter what you do. Also the proper seal design is not to seal around the inj nozzle like PTP did, but to seal between the seat of the injector and the bottom of the inj bore in the head by using the clamping force of the crows feet.

[gerry@ardesign]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 No the bolt is stretch to yield and cannot be over torqued without failure. I also spent several weeks looking for a vendor for a stud but no one makes the diameter and length needed. The PTP seal is crap. Iirc it is flat out .002" too thin to even fill the gap between the inj and the bottom of the injector bore so its going to leak no matter what you do. Also the proper seal design is not to seal around the inj nozzle like PTP did, but to seal between the seat of the injector and the bottom of the inj bore in the head by using the clamping force of the crows feet.

I think your talking about the ptp v1's, Cruzito has the v2 which are the "cup style" seal like silverdemon's.

[madvillain]

Lmfao @ file-to-fit PTP V1 seals

[spnkr21]

^^^
haha. So true. He told me the reason they may not fit is because of the tumbling process. WTF? Then told us to double them up haha. Good times. Good times.

[rigor]

i found some nice brass washers, ohh i mean injector seals ill sell you! 50 dolera, life time warranty, i got a thousand in stock!

pm me, and ill slide you in the back door! lol

joke ! haha

[SilverDemon]

hahahaha...comedian in every bunch!!!

Thanks to everyone for being patient.....I was hoping to hear something this week on the paperwork. I have all the installation instructions typed up, prints have been submitted, so the ball is in the vendors court at this point.

[tbot]

Light a fire Scott!!!