Operation Relocated MAF: Underway

[ATE BALLER]

Well, I started with and ebay 3" pipe with a GReddy flange, a 3" pipe with an elbow that came with my turbo, a stock ms3 cold pipe, and the cheapest ebay cai kit for a wrx I could find, lol. Here's some picks of the progress...

I used the air straightener for the aem intake, and will be adding the GM screen I got from PTP when I actually install it.


Type-S mounted up.


MAF sensor is right by the throttle-body.


All pipes are cut to approximate length and shape. I know it doesn't look like they line up very good, but that's because they're just loosely sitting there. They actually line up preety good IMO






Just need a couple welds or a couple couplers and I'm good to go. I think I prefer the couplers at the moment just to be sure of fitment since this is really just an experiment.

That is all.

[subparpunk03]

Awesome man. Awesome. Let me know how this works out, I'm looking into doing the same thing.

How close are you putting the MAF to the BOV and the Throttle? I'd imagine you don't want it too close to either.

[gsrtype1]

sweet!

[ATE BALLER]

The l/a ic I have uses the stock endtanks, so I had to get an ms3 style coldpipe to bolt up to it w/o hitting the intake manifold. It's a tad larger diameter than the stock 06 ms6 one, and it comes straight out until the bov flange. I cut it right in front of the bov flange and coupled the new straight pipe I got off ebay w/ the GReddy flange on it.

Used one of the pipes in the wrx cai kit and another pipe I got from darksun to come out around the radiator hose. Just cut them so they'd fit. The other peice that came in the cai kit was the pipe with the maf housing, which was 2.75". I cut the turns off the ends, leaving ~3" on the front side. Slid the air straightener in and put the smaller end of the reducer from the kit on that. Put the maf in and jammed the short back side into the coupler on the TB.

So the air will come out the endank, over past the bov and around the radiator hose, then through the air straighteners and maf and into the TB.

[aaronc7]

cool let us know how it goes

[Crossbow]

FYI,

ECU pulls timing when IAT is past 88F. (IAT is part of the MAF sensor housing). Might have issues with the IAT seeing boost temperatures (in a post turbo config) because of that.

[I<3Groceries]

Originally Posted by Crossbow FYI, ECU pulls timing when IAT is past 88F. (IAT is part of the MAF sensor housing). Might have issues with the IAT seeing boost temperatures (in a post turbo config) because of that.

Wow, amazing point.
MAF is also responsible for AAT.

[aaronc7]

i dont think the ambient air sensor is in the MAF, thats the one down by the front grille. I relocated mine to near the wheel well area and it reads super high all the time... lol. I even get it to show --- sometimes when its off the charts (above 150 or so).

anyways still looking forward to seeing the results here, im sure ATE will figure something out.

[labikesrcool]

it's a pricey fix but could he find the signal wires responsible for aat/iat and put another maf in in the stock location for just the aat/iat numbers and use the relocated maf for air volume numbers. but i'm also thinking that maybe the ecu uses iat for calibration of the air flow sensor. i'm curious, if aat and iat are taken at the same location is aat a calculated value then? kinda like cat temp? why is aat on the dashawk never the same as my amb on my radio lcd? why not use that sensor.

[ATE BALLER]

Well, if it pulls timing above 88, I'm down. The only time my BATs are that high is at partial throttle/cruising on hot days (when I'd like timing pulled anyway). Even with the stock k04, my BATs end up way below the IATs at WOT. Just makes this sound that much better to me.

[bova]

can't pull timing that much because i've looked at my logs of iat's over 88 and under and they are the same at WOT.

[I<3Groceries]

There is an AAT sensor behind the front bumper. That's the one that is displayed on the dash. It is for HVAC, not used for calculations by the ECU. The ECU's AAT is taken at the MAF, and is indeed a calculated value (somehow).

[aaronc7]

^^ interesting. Yeah my HVAC freaks out when it goes to ---. lol

[Crossbow]

The 88F number is based off data from the Rx8, (racing beat, Jim Mederer) Mazda6 (forums), and Mazdaspeed6 (whoosh). The ECU definitely takes into account IAT when determining it's various settings. Racing beat actually had an ecu simulator setup, and you could actually watch the timing change as they adjusted each sensor...that's how they figured out the various points for retarding.

[buddhabum]

My HVAC (is that the temperature sensor which displays temp in the center console?) never worked... Where is that sensor's default location?

[I<3Groceries]

Originally Posted by buddhabum My HVAC (is that the temperature sensor which displays temp in the center console?) never worked... Where is that sensor's default location?

Note # 8 in this diagram.

[I<3Groceries]

Sooo...
With a post IC MAF, you'll be metering the same air as the MAP. Sooo...
Your IAT and BAT will likely match. Your AAT will be inaccurate. That's bound to skew ECU logic/calculations.

[bova]

ha on some hot days while sitting in traffic. after the road opens up i can make my boost air temps lower then intake air temps.

[labikesrcool]

Originally Posted by I<3Groceries Sooo... With a post IC MAF, you'll be metering the same air as the MAP. Sooo... Your IAT and BAT will likely match. Your AAT will be inaccurate. That's bound to skew ECU logic/calculations.

so from what i understand the map is there for maybe egr system checks and to be kind of a redundancy check for the maf sensor numbers. is it possible to tap into the map signal and use that in replacement of the maf signal, but then keep the maf in stock location for iat and aat measurements? I wonder if the temp calibration is done in the sensor or with the ecu. if it's in the ecu then this is probably not possible. you would be using iat as the temp calibration offset for the map.

ATE BALLER what are you looking for in doing the maf relocate? better metering or just be able to vent to atmosphere without issue or something else?

[bova]

if you research blow by systems in the subie world you will see that there is power to be gained just from doing this. cobb has made it so that they can run it that way using the AP and ATR. When discussing possibly making the mazdaspeed cars blow by they had said its a possiblity. and by blow by i mean that the maf stays in stock position and the the car uses the map sensor to base its air calculations off, so maf is just used for IAT.

[ATE BALLER]

I'm seeing what it does. I'll be able to vent the bov w/o losing metered air, infact, any boost leak from the filter to the TB would not be losing metered air, thus not going to fuck up any fuel trims if they should occur.

I can ditch the entire intake pre-turbo and replace it w/ a filter and a heat shield, and I'm using alot larger piping for the coldpipe than the stock ms6 one was. That will really let the system breathe faster and better.

And I'm hoping that the consistent BAT and IAT (and possibly calculated AAT) entice the ECU to pull some timing in closed loop. Kind of like, dumbing it down some. I'm doing the diode tric on the rear O2 sensor soon as well, so that my AFR will drop a smidge in closed loop as well.

I'm also hoping the crazy TB fluttering doesn't fuck with the map sensor either.

[ATE BALLER]

Originally Posted by bova80 if you research blow by systems in the subie world you will see that there is power to be gained just from doing this. cobb has made it so that they can run it that way using the AP and ATR. When discussing possibly making the mazdaspeed cars blow by they had said its a possiblity. and by blow by i mean that the maf stays in stock position and the the car uses the map sensor to base its air calculations off, so maf is just used for IAT.

This is Blow Thru, where everything works properly and is metered, just from a different position.

[phillyb]

interesting.

[KayWhy]

I made a post the other day about having a maf moved, its awesome someone else actually had the idea (and funds) to look further into it. I honestly wouldnt recommend moving the maf after everything but its all testing purposes right now right? As for people who stated above about the IAT taken at the maf. My pervious car had a seperate sensor for this. What we used was a resistor to false the reading of the IAT to increase timing which (depending on how severe you changed the reading) would net mass amounts of HP and knock - which also made us use higher octane or meth and made sure everyhting was free flow through the exhaust (leading cause of our knock)

Not sure if there is anything like this that you can false on the MS, still new to the vehicle and havnt started hacking away at things yet.

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER I'm seeing what it does. I'll be able to vent the bov w/o losing metered air, infact, any boost leak from the filter to the TB would not be losing metered air, thus not going to fuck up any fuel trims if they should occur. I can ditch the entire intake pre-turbo and replace it w/ a filter and a heat shield, and I'm using alot larger piping for the coldpipe than the stock ms6 one was. That will really let the system breathe faster and better. And I'm hoping that the consistent BAT and IAT (and possibly calculated AAT) entice the ECU to pull some timing in closed loop. Kind of like, dumbing it down some. I'm doing the diode tric on the rear O2 sensor soon as well, so that my AFR will drop a smidge in closed loop as well. I'm also hoping the crazy TB fluttering doesn't fuck with the map sensor either.

Anxiously awaiting your findings, i'd like to drive with NO filter on my turbo lol.

[I<3Groceries]

Well...
Whatever happens this is one of the more interesting threads going on right now.
Good luck, and props for ingenuity.

[ATE BALLER]

All in due time. Hopefully I'll be able to pull myself away from the buying a house situation I'm in sometime this weekend to run up to autozone to see if they have any couplers. That's all I need. Oh, and for whatever reason, Mazda used three short bolts and one long one to fasten the ms3 coldpipe to the endtank, whereas the 06 ms6 use four short, so I need to get my hands on a long bolt too. Anybody have one sitting around they want to donate?

[labikesrcool]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER All in due time. Hopefully I'll be able to pull myself away from the buying a house situation I'm in sometime this weekend to run up to autozone to see if they have any couplers. That's all I need. Oh, and for whatever reason, Mazda used three short bolts and one long one to fasten the ms3 coldpipe to the endtank, whereas the 06 ms6 use four short, so I need to get my hands on a long bolt too. Anybody have one sitting around they want to donate?

if you told me the dimensions you need we probably have one on the shelf at work. but for the cost of shipping....

[ATE BALLER]

I'm not sure of the bolt dimensions. The ms3 coldpipe I hacked in half has a collar cast into it running all the way to the bottom. Anybody sell their stocker and still have the bolt by chance?

[ispypsi]

looks good. i like that IC, did you keep the stock underhood ducting...that might help a tad with some surface temps lol.

do note, i'm know MAFs have been much improved in the last 10-12 years, but my nissan MAFs (hotwire style still) didn't like being too close to the throttle body in blow through mode, there seemed to be some turbulence making the MAFs freak out. seemed to really hate when letting off the throttle and partial throttle situations where air was going nuts hitting the TB and swirling around giving some odd MAFs readings. my voltages were sketchy as hell. it didn't mind blow through mode otherwise, minus the fact that shitty plastic MAFs with square ends that bolt to the airbox do not like 20 something psi :-P

the biggest thing with blow through is to keep the MAFs away from the TB and to not place it too close to any sharp bends so the 'column' of air moving through the piping is nice. Then again, you might be ok depending on how finicky our MAFs are, plus you have that straightener (and soon to be mesh) :thumbup:

i do know the hassles of BOV routing are gone though, and the piping config you have looks to be pretty good. should provide some pretty good response. i'd doubt you'll have any issues, but some tuning should be able to smooth some of that out.

[bova]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER All in due time. Hopefully I'll be able to pull myself away from the buying a house situation I'm in sometime this weekend to run up to autozone to see if they have any couplers. That's all I need. Oh, and for whatever reason, Mazda used three short bolts and one long one to fasten the ms3 coldpipe to the endtank, whereas the 06 ms6 use four short, so I need to get my hands on a long bolt too. Anybody have one sitting around they want to donate?

my speed6 had 3 and 1 long.

[ATE BALLER]

Originally Posted by ispypsi looks good. i like that IC, did you keep the stock underhood ducting...that might help a tad with some surface temps lol. do note, i'm know MAFs have been much improved in the last 10-12 years, but my nissan MAFs (hotwire style still) didn't like being too close to the throttle body in blow through mode, there seemed to be some turbulence making the MAFs freak out. seemed to really hate when letting off the throttle and partial throttle situations where air was going nuts hitting the TB and swirling around giving some odd MAFs readings. my voltages were sketchy as hell. it didn't mind blow through mode otherwise, minus the fact that shitty plastic MAFs with square ends that bolt to the airbox do not like 20 something psi :-P the biggest thing with blow through is to keep the MAFs away from the TB and to not place it too close to any sharp bends so the 'column' of air moving through the piping is nice. Then again, you might be ok depending on how finicky our MAFs are, plus you have that straightener (and soon to be mesh) :thumbup: i do know the hassles of BOV routing are gone though, and the piping config you have looks to be pretty good. should provide some pretty good response. i'd doubt you'll have any issues, but some tuning should be able to smooth some of that out.

Right now I'm looking at 5-6" before the throttle blade. I have another 6" of pipe I can play with as well , if things do seem a little unstable.

Originally Posted by bova80 my speed6 had 3 and 1 long.

I think only the 06 was this way. IN 06 they had a hard pipe all the way to the throttle body, then in 07 they went with the shorter hard pipe with the rubber elbow, which is also found in the ms3 and cx7. At least that's my understanding.

[ATE BALLER]

BAM!

Well, it's all on there and everything seemed fine on a trip around the block. Had to fab up a quick intake for the stock turbo since the filter I have is 3" and the stock turbo is way smaller. Throttle plate doesn't seem to be messing with it at all, and that's with the maf pipe coupled right to the tb. Heading to a buddies house, so I'll do some logs on the way back or in the morning. I reset the ecu, so nothing to report on the fuel trims right now.

Thug life, yo.

[blaggah]

Awesome! Can't wait to see the results.

[ATE BALLER]

Well, slight fail. Once I hit 10psi, a pipe blew right off and a clamp fell out onto the road somewhere, lol. Had I not relocated the maf, I might have needed a tow, but since the maf is right in front of the tb, I was still able to drive home essentially without my turbo hooked up. Drove fine until I'd give it too much gas. Then it only sputtered a little since the highest the pressure would get to was 0.0. So the stock pipe and intake are going back on until I can get this welded. At least that's the plan right now.

[blaggah]

Bummer. How did it feel before the misshap?

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by blaggah Bummer. How did it feel before the misshap?

bump

[Eazy]

Originally Posted by blaggah Bummer. How did it feel before the misshap?

it doesn't sound like he got to find out. "once I hit 10psi".... I'm assuming that was the 1st time he floored it.

[ATE BALLER]

Well, I changed my mind, but in a good way. clamped everything back up and strategically placed some safety chain to hold it together long enough to go to work on monday, and go to a shop for the welding right after. On a short drive I took it to 14psi without a problem. It sure is taking my tiny stock turbo a long time to fill up the 3" pipe though. I don't know if the volume is too high, or if I have a boost leak at one of the couplers. Probably both, lol. It actually pulls pretty damn hard though and the throttle response is way smoother and faster I did go to a funky sri I threw together though, so I'm sure that's effecting it to. I might take it for a longer spin tomorrow too, just to see how it fairs up to a longer distance.

I do need to beed-roll the maf pipe though. I don't want to weld tha until I get a 3" housing. Is there a hand tool that will beed-roll or does that take some kind of machine? Harbor freight maybe?

[labikesrcool]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER Well, I changed my mind, but in a good way. clamped everything back up and strategically placed some safety chain to hold it together long enough to go to work on monday, and go to a shop for the welding right after. On a short drive I took it to 14psi without a problem. It sure is taking my tiny stock turbo a long time to fill up the 3" pipe though. I don't know if the volume is too high, or if I have a boost leak at one of the couplers. Probably both, lol. It actually pulls pretty damn hard though and the throttle response is way smoother and faster I did go to a funky sri I threw together though, so I'm sure that's effecting it to. I might take it for a longer spin tomorrow too, just to see how it fairs up to a longer distance. I do need to beed-roll the maf pipe though. I don't want to weld tha until I get a 3" housing. Is there a hand tool that will beed-roll or does that take some kind of machine? Harbor freight maybe?

There are hand powered tools that do such things. most i know of are pricey. 400-1000 bills