MS6 Suspension Data & DIY Bilstein Coilovers

[ibcrusn]

Gotcha, so you have finished spending $$ yet.

[phate]

Originally Posted by ibcrusn Gotcha, so you have finished spending $$ yet.

Plenty more to spend money on, haha. I pretty much decided after test driving a bunch of new cars that the 6 was the way to go. So I have a few big projects this winter and a couple in mind for next winter, already.

[zenit]

Originally Posted by phate Diff is out for investigation

and?

[KevinK2]

Originally Posted by phate ..... I did an autocross up here about a month ago and wasn't real happy with the course flow, how the car was running, and my driving ...... Got back out yesterday after minor maintenance and the car felt great. Good course design that had good flow and a couple high risk/high reward sections. Took the class, ended up 4th overall on raw, and 6th overall on pax out of 132 drivers. Found out after the event that I corded a right rear tire during a spin on my first run, so not too shabby. That's the first Hoosier I've worn out.

That's amazing! And by the video, it appears you used a transaxle saving, slow soft start. Did anyone in your class appear to question if you were "legal". That happened to me when I ran one time at a track in the next state, and beat all in my class.


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[phate]

Originally Posted by KevinK2 That's amazing! And by the video, it appears you used a transaxle saving, slow soft start. Did anyone in your class appear to question if you were "legal". That happened to me when I ran one time at a track in the next state, and beat all in my class.

No one questioned me, directly. Definitely a lot of surprised people, haha. I did have one guy in total disbelief that the car only made ~250hp. Muttered something about 500hp as he walked away.

[ryguy 3]

Originally Posted by phate Little wider 18x10.5 +30. Could probably go with a +35 and still clear the spindle. Rears might be an issue, but I didn't test fit them before I pulled the knuckles. Front seats are out. Johanna just finished extending the Kirkey seat cover to be compliant with the rules, so it'll go in soon. Need to order passenger side hardware, still. Extended studs in new hubs with new bearings. Transmission tear down, abbreviated version. 2nd gear pads are done for, no wonder it was hard to shift: 2nd gear dogs aren't in too great of shape, explains why it was popping out of 2nd: All of the dog gears show some wear, but not as severe as second. That's no wonder since autocross is mostly 2nd gear. If I can get a very low mile used trans, I'll probably go that route. Rebuilding this trans is approaching a cost point that doesn't make it worthwhile, and I haven't finished tallying everything. Diff is out for investigation

I love the spoke design of the enkei nt05, one day imma bite the bullet and buy a set.

Did you go with 18's just for looks? Id imagine sticky rubber would be cheaper for 17's.

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[phate]

Originally Posted by ryguy 3 I love the spoke design of the enkei nt05, one day imma bite the bullet and buy a set. Did you go with 18's just for looks? Id imagine sticky rubber would be cheaper for 17's. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Figured I'd get extra points at Hot Import Nights with the 18's.

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[KevinK2]

Originally Posted by phate 2nd gear dogs aren't in too great of shape, explains why it was popping out of 2nd: All of the dog gears show some wear, but not as severe as second. That's no wonder since autocross is mostly 2nd gear. If I can get a very low mile used trans, I'll probably go that route. Rebuilding this trans is approaching a cost point that doesn't make it worthwhile, and I haven't finished tallying everything.

I think 2nd gear's dog gear teeth show high wear at the tooth end, due to race starts and occasional shifts in and out of 1st at tight corners, vs just running in 2nd. With that hard shift into 2nd at each start, with the highest rpm change shifting being between 1st and 2nd,
it's likely the root cause.

In a different load case, I saw the same edge wear on a non-syncro reverse gear, on a dd.


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[phate]

Light brakes project is underway. Should be 13-14 lb savings per front corner between the rotors and calipers. @Code Monkey;, they increased the rotor thickness by 1mm on these, hopefully that helps lol.









Seat:



It feel super rigid without the belts. Should be a great improvement over the stocker.

Still need to order hardware for the passenger side, but this was a good start.



Also for weight reduction:







Engine is at the machine shop. Maybe later this month it will be finished.

New transmission is on a boat coming over from Japan. Might have that in a few weeks. It was 1 of 3 new units left anywhere.

[TiGraySpeed6]

what's up with the PTO these days?

[Code Monkey]

"They" is RacingBrake? Fuck those guys but I hope the redesigned rotor works for you. I do hope you are running some sort of cage and back braces for the seats.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Code Monkey "They" is RacingBrake? Fuck those guys but I hope the redesigned rotor works for you. I do hope you are running some sort of cage and back braces for the seats.

For Autocross, no. I decided against it after seeing several cars at spring Nats that had aluminum seats without back braces. If the car sees street or big track miles, I'll put the stocker back in.

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 what's up with the PTO these days?

Whimpering in the corner, awaiting its final days.



On a very close topic, SCCA Street Prepared rules made a HUGE change for 2017 with allowances to strengthen parts. Engine parts are ruled out specifically but most everything else is free game...

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[Mazdazilla6]

@phate; is that a Wedge seat bracket? How's fitment? Asking because mine fit like complete shit.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 @phate; is that a Wedge seat bracket? How's fitment? Asking because mine fit like complete shit.

The bracket that Mounts to the floor with a flat square frame and sliders fit great.

The aluminum plate you see in the pic is what I had to make to mount the seat to it. It started out life as an 18x18" sheet. I added risers for height, and a link at the front of the seat straight down to help rigidity.

The typical side mount brackets don't work because the seat has a contoured bucket, not a vertical edge bucket.

Which part are you referring to?

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[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by phate The bracket that Mounts to the floor with a flat square frame and sliders fit great. The aluminum plate you see in the pic is what I had to make to mount the seat to it. It started out life as an 18x18" sheet. I added risers for height, and a link at the front of the seat straight down to help rigidity. The typical side mount brackets don't work because the seat has a contoured bucket, not a vertical edge bucket. Which part are you referring to? Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

The bracket that mounts to the floor. Only two of the four holes on mine lined up properly. I was not thrilled having to modify it to fit.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 The bracket that mounts to the floor. Only two of the four holes on mine lined up properly. I was not thrilled having to modify it to fit.

E22064T from Corbeau is what I have.

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[TiGraySpeed6]

looking at the space between the door frame and seat...

thinking you could've got a fancy Recaro baby seat and been just fine you tiny little bastid

[phate]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 looking at the space between the door frame and seat... thinking you could've got a fancy Recaro baby seat and been just fine you tiny little bastid

I'm always at race weight.

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[MS3johanna]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 looking at the space between the door frame and seat... thinking you could've got a fancy Recaro baby seat and been just fine you tiny little bastid

We actually browsed larger children's sized race seats...

[phate]

Engine is together.

Transmission is getting delivered Monday.

Flywheel, water injection kit, and a few more miscellaneous parts are on their way. Car should be running Easter weekend.

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[KevinK2]

With improved engine, braking, tire/wheels, should be quicker!


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[phate]

Also picked up a truck last weekend. Now I'm looking for a deal on an enclosed trailer and I'll be ready to go racing



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[KevinK2]

Originally Posted by phate 2nd gear pads are done for, no wonder it was hard to shift: 2nd gear dogs aren't in too great of shape, explains why it was popping out of 2nd: All of the dog gears show some wear, but not as severe as second. That's no wonder since autocross is mostly 2nd gear. If I can get a very low mile used trans, I'll probably go that route. Rebuilding this trans is approaching a cost point that doesn't make it worthwhile, and ...

New transmission is on a boat coming over from Japan. Might have that in a few weeks. It was 1 of 3 new units left anywhere.

It sounds like you have committed to competing in your amazing MS6, but the limited used transmissions available is not comforting. Wear at the 1-2 syncro assembly is critical:

Syncro Parts

I think the high wear on the 2nd gear syncro teeth is from the shift from 1st to 2nd, and has little to do with being in 2nd gear. As you are about to shift, 1st gear is engaged by the syncro, and 2nd is spun by way of the output shaft at a much lower rpm ( the % change in engine rpm is the highest between 1st & 2nd, vs other shifts). Assuming the clutch opens and fully frees the disc, the sycro-sleeves must slow down the disc rpm to allow those side gears to engage. The syncros just care about getting in gear, nothing about the rest of the shift process.

But the shift is always a rubbing process, wearing the syncro ring and the sycro gears ... on the side of the main gear, and inside the sleeve.

Bottom line, to reduce wear:
> be sure the clutch fully releases the disc during the shift
> minimize the inertia of the disc (dual disc's for small dia ?)
> use a proven trans oil
> short shift if competition allows (may already do this to spare the trans-axle)
> consider seasonal rebuilds just in this area of the trans. Ideally just replacing the single syncro (baulk) ring. "Preventative Maintenance"

Just a few things that you likely have already considered


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[phate]

Car runs. Took it out for ~20 miles and all is well. Need a few more miles and I'll retune it. Aquamist kit scheduled for delivery today.

Passenger seat is in, also. Going to keep the stock 3 point belt over there, I think.

[zenit]

@phate; How many horsepowers didja get from that mani, bruh?

[KevinK2]

Is boost pressure increases allowed in SP classes? Reads like it is ok.
From '17 Solo rule book:

"15. Street Prepared
15.10 ENGINE AND DRIVE TRAIN
C. Induction allowances are as follows:
4. Turbochargers and/or superchargers (forced induction) may not be
added, changed, or modified (this does not allow ceramic coating of
turbochargers). On vehicles originally equipped with forced induction:

f. Boost regulation systems, either electronic or mechanical, and elec- tronic fuel cuts referencing boost pressure may be altered or modi- fied except as prohibited herein. Boost pressure changes resulting from authorized changes are permitted."



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[phate]

Yep, boost changes are permitted, and so is water injection. I thought this might be a fun project.



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[nignogswog]

Originally Posted by phate Little wider 18x10.5 +30. Could probably go with a +35 and still clear the spindle. Rears might be an issue, but I didn't test fit them before I pulled the knuckles. Front seats are out. Johanna just finished extending the Kirkey seat cover to be compliant with the rules, so it'll go in soon. Need to order passenger side hardware, still. Extended studs in new hubs with new bearings. Transmission tear down, abbreviated version. 2nd gear pads are done for, no wonder it was hard to shift: 2nd gear dogs aren't in too great of shape, explains why it was popping out of 2nd: All of the dog gears show some wear, but not as severe as second. That's no wonder since autocross is mostly 2nd gear. If I can get a very low mile used trans, I'll probably go that route. Rebuilding this trans is approaching a cost point that doesn't make it worthwhile, and I haven't finished tallying everything. Diff is out for investigation

do you think 17x10 +52 with a 10mm spacer would clear spindle? aggressive pull on stock fenders, of course.

[phate]

www.willtheyfit.com

Compare to mine.

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[nignogswog]

Did you end up with +30 or +35? How far was it from the spindle/whatever in the rear???

[phate]

+30. Nearly the same clearance front and rear.

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[nignogswog]

Awesome. How much clearance would you say you have??
17x10 +42 (effective offset w/ 10mm spacer) and I'd still be poking inwards 5.7mm more than your setup.....I know that one black speed6 with purple rpf1 runs something like 17x10 +38 without issues.

[KevinK2]

Originally Posted by phate Yep, boost changes are permitted, and so is water injection. I thought this might be a fun project.....

I'm sure you will get the max reliable boost/power from the water inj'n. This is a very impressive system. Can you count on a phase change ?

It seems there is a real advantage for boosted cars, with no boost restriction in Solo competition.



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[nindoja]

@phate; looks like you went hot side to the driver's side and cold side on the passenger side to the TB?

[phate]

Originally Posted by nindoja @phate; looks like you went hot side to the driver's side and cold side on the passenger side to the TB?

No cold, all hot.

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[phate]

Originally Posted by KevinK2 I'm sure you will get the max reliable boost/power from the water inj'n. This is a very impressive system. Can you count on a phase change ? It seems there is a real advantage for boosted cars, with no boost restriction in Solo competition.

I'm counting on the phase change more than anything. Cruising around, temps are about 120°F, and as soon as I get into boost of 5-10psi, I'm around 160-170°. I expect at least 230° out of the compressor at full boost, and I'm thinking I'll position the injector at the inner radius of the first 90° bend pointing to the outside of the bend for maximum turbulence and temperature change. Since I'm using small nozzles, I can always put a second or even third nozzle in the system if the system can handle the injection amount.

I'm doing it more for consistency of power than I am for increasing power. And it shifts weight from above the engine to lower, in the rear of the car.

[KevinK2]

Originally Posted by phate ... And it shifts weight from above the engine to lower, in the rear of the car.

No IC, water in trunk. I'm sure you'll have protection if there is a fault.


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[phate]

Did a preliminary weighing before deciding on water pump and reservoir location. Should be right at 3200lb all said and done. Cross weights are way off right now, will corner balance and align this weekend.

Aquamist system is in and functioning with small jets. Only had time to validate the system worked as it should and take a couple back to backs to look at temp change. Will finish all tuning this weekend and have before/after results with the water injection.

Car is running good with the new engine and trans. I have ~75 miles on it and probably 50 full throttle pulls. Extremely responsive without the intercooler, should pick up a little more response as tune gets dialed in. Saw BAT's upwards of 240° without water injection, and 200° with. No knock with E40 and low-ish timing.

Picking up tires from TireRack Friday. First event Monday if all goes well.

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[KevinK2]

Originally Posted by phate Did a preliminary weighing before deciding on water pump and reservoir location. Should be right at 3200lb all said and done. Cross weights are way off right now, will corner balance and align this weekend.

I know what you do works, but I'd guess:
- disconnect bars, seat equivalent Phate body
- set ride height
- corner balance
- connect bars with no preload
- remove equivalent Phate [/QUOTE]

Aquamist system is in and functioning with small jets. Extremely responsive without the intercooler .... Saw BAT's upwards of 240° without water injection, and 200° with. No knock with E40 and low-ish timing.

My old 924Turbo had no IC, and no lag.

Sounds like injection is before the compressor, How does 200F compare with prior AIT's ? I guess the warmer but more humid intake air is less likely to cause knock? [/QUOTE]


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[phate]

Originally Posted by KevinK2 I know what you do works, but I'd guess: - disconnect bars, seat equivalent Phate body - set ride height - corner balance - connect bars with no preload - remove equivalent Phate

[/QUOTE]

Just add in an alignment before connecting bars and removing weight.

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