The CX7 really enjoyed our FullControl™ flash

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar It's not an argument btw the SB and the AE. The issue is that cp-e doesn't have an AE. As for the holding boost, you're right about the ultimate power number but the gains realized from the flash will be translatable w/ or w/o the SB present because the hardware (DP, exhaust, IC, intake) is the same and all stock.

Im just trying to fend off an argument thats going to trash this thread with a cock fight because of the "hole" in the "control".

[NYpest]

If the CPE "FCflash" makes a great difference in power(im not saying it doesent) why not run it alone ? Just being practical here

[gsrtype1]

They said they just used it for data logging..

[NYpest]

Originally Posted by gsrtype1 They said they just used it for data logging..

but they didnt ! they used it as boost control as well

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by NYpest but they didnt ! they used it as boost control as well

Yes they did. Jordan has all of the logs. If there is interesting data there (TPSv, MAFv differences, boost, fuel system issues, etc), it will be shared. They did the dyno yesterday evening. I'm not sure they've had time to examine everything yet.

[superskaterxes]

as much as i love CPE im going to have to say it DOES effect the OVERALL numbers here when your holding 15PSI. BUT!!!! because the car was dynoed w/the standback both before and after the flash, the results of the flash are valid. lets say it gained 30WHP from 2k to 5K. w/o the SB its gona still gain the same amount but peak numbers will just be lower. the point of the flash is to GAIN power everywhere and not just peak. i guess CPE diddent have a choice when it comes to having to datalog the run but to use the SB. they dont have another scan tool and its unreasonable for them to have to go out and buy one. if you dont like the results cause they "cheated" go home, no ones putting a gun to your head to buy this. not to mention that NO ONE here owns a CX-7 as a DD and the only people who can actually relate to this are the ones who have spouses ect with the car. so wtf do you care if it wont even affect you?

[NYpest]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar Yes they did. Jordan has all of the logs. If there is interesting data there (TPSv, MAFv differences, boost, fuel system issues, etc), it will be shared. They did the dyno yesterday evening. I'm not sure they've had time to examine everything yet.

i ment they didnt just ONLY data log

[NYpest]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes as much as i love CPE im going to have to say it DOES effect the OVERALL numbers here when your holding 15PSI. BUT!!!! because the car was dynoed w/the standback both before and after the flash, the results of the flash are valid. lets say it gained 30WHP from 2k to 5K. w/o the SB its gona still gain the same amount but peak numbers will just be lower. the point of the flash is to GAIN power everywhere and not just peak. i guess CPE diddent have a choice when it comes to having to datalog the run but to use the SB. they dont have another scan tool and its unreasonable for them to have to go out and buy one. if you dont like the results cause they "cheated" go home, no ones putting a gun to your head to buy this. not to mention that NO ONE here owns a CX-7 as a DD and the only people who can actually relate to this are the ones who have spouses ect with the car. so wtf do you care if it wont even affect you?

But they do have a choice to run the SB with the boost or without !

let me simplify my point.... How much poewr is GAINED by FCthrottle flash ONLY ??? is it worth it to me if i dont want to buy a standback!!!

[dadasracecar]

The GAINS are the same. Peak numbers will be different but GAINS should be the same.

[NYpest]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar The GAINS are the same. Peak numbers will be different but GAINS should be the same.

I dont think they are the same (i see your point....... i do) ****just my opinion

[Grim]

why do people keep arguing over the flash? If you dont like it then quit bitching about it and leave.we have herd it all before. Its not like CP-e is making you buy this.

[dread]

I agree with nypest here. There is no way you can make the assumption that the gains would be the same without the boost raised. Although I think this entire argument is a waste of time, until cpe flashes a completely stock car and gets a dyno or decides to only sell the flash with the standback as a package. In reality most people who are going to flash their ecu will have mods anyway. Its still pretty cool that power is being made by the flash even if it does require a stand back.

[NYpest]

YES YES!!!


And i agree its great to see the 2 work so good together as well

[superskaterxes]

ok i agree there is a viable point that w/o proof you cant claim the gains will be the same. but i cant see them being far enough off that it would discourage people from buying the flash.

and as far as arguing over this, we would still be like 4 posts into page 1 if we had never started an argument. its kind of what a forum is all about. as long as your not personally bashing people and the arguments are valid with the subject matter and dont go off topic i think its ok to argue.

[gsrtype1]

I would say clearly Cp-e has done great with the flash there is know question it picks power and torque increrases the efficiancy of our motor for $400 that is not a bad deal.. why is everyone always trying to pick at they progress theyve made, cut them some slack..

[NYpest]

Originally Posted by gsrtype1 I would say clearly Cp-e has done great with the flash there is know question it picks power and torque increrases the efficiancy of our motor for $400 that is not a bad deal.. why is everyone always trying to pick at they progress theyve made, cut them some slack..

If you have a standback

Look i get it i do .....but i drove a car with just throttle and its not a huge increase

[phailerider]

I think its ridiculous whats going on here. Weve got guys deligimizing cpes gains because they used a zeroed out standback.

These are the same guys who are proponents of "other tuning solutions" that in same cases havent been able to even see a gain yet!!!! And then cpe gets a knock your socks off gain, like we expected and the standback becomes the point of the discussion.

just unbelievable....

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider I think its ridiculous whats going on here. Weve got guys deligimizing cpes gains because they used a zeroed out standback. These are the same guys who are proponents of "other tuning solutions" that in same cases havent been able to even see a gain yet!!!! And then cpe gets a knock your socks off gain, like we expected and the standback becomes the point of the discussion. just unbelievable....

Look, if you want to show gains, the "control" has to be just that, "control". Not the SB is wired in solely for using in datalogging when infact the boost is clamped on to 15 psi.

Its funny when people want to trash Cobb, its open season with you guys... but when anyone questions anything CPe related, everyone gets butt hurt about it.

If you are going to toss in artificialities, you are going to be questioned about it. That is what is happening here. Next thing you know, converter lockup/non lockup will be the next topic in this thread.

[www.cp-e.com]

So now the gains can ONLY be had if you pair the flash with a Standback?! You guys are amazing

Let's back up in history for a brief moment:

→ First it was said that keeping the throttle open was said to make zero power. We proved that to be untrue.

→ Then it was going to overspin the turbo, and burn something.

Originally Posted by NYpest Also your boost! with the throttle open and the ristriction removed you will not see as much boost as you did b4 just as cobb has said

Of course that isn't true at all.

→ Now folks can't realize the power gains unless you're running a Standback??? The way you guys jump to conclusions is just extraordinary really, and it's really bad science.

If we had performed the dyno runs without any datalogging equipment, then we lose because we can't examine the data afterwards, which was important to us. I just can't believe that people here think 1psi over stock (15psi is simply the default value in the primary map) is going to make any appreciable difference in power, especially considering boost was the same before and after, and the CX7 was otherwise bone stock. Again, what ever happened to the argument that the open throttle doesn't make ANY horsepower? Has that argument vaporized finally, and now we're moving onto the next argument? Someone please explain this to me because I think I missed a memo somewhere.

Despite what the overnight engineers may say, the flash makes great power with OR without the Standback. You don't need one in order to enjoy the other.

[smakdown61]

There are other solutions to datalogging besides the standback....the point is, there are alot of scientific people here and claiming the standback as "stock" wouldn't fly in a scientific journal setting. Now if you first had done comparison's between stock and just standback to prove there were no differences then the claims would be valid. Good work on the gains though.

[gsrtype1]

The runs where done before and after with the same boost,...With the standback zero out.. Those gains where clearly a result of the flash.

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by smakdown61 There are other solutions to datalogging besides the standback....the point is, there are alot of scientific people here and claiming the standback as "stock" wouldn't fly in a scientific journal setting. Now if you first had done comparison's between stock and just standback to prove there were no differences then the claims would be valid. Good work on the gains though.

I have no problem with that statement, and I'd agree with you. That's why we were very clear that the Standback was on the vehicle, and the CX7 was otherwise stock. We're not trying to use smoke and mirrors here.

What I do have a problem with is people immediately jumping to the conclusion that the flash doesn't make any power without the Standback. That's just not fair.

Thanks for the kudos though smakdown, we all appreciate it here.

[dadasracecar]

cp-e never claimed the SB was stock. They showed the GAINS of the throttle plate flash on a fully bolted car - Pan's and got shit for the car being modded with breathing mods - eliminated all the restrictions will make the TP flash look that much better, etc. They went and found a stock cx-7 and dynoed/flashed/dynoed it and are getting shit b/c of a boost controller.

Who gives a shit about the boost controller and whether the car was fully stock or not. In this case all of the hardware was stock and even with all of the restrictions and small turbo, the flash made great gains.

The boost control, of course, made the peak numbers higher, but the gains would be the same or extremely close w/ or w/o the SB.

Why I get bent out shape on threads like this is the cp-e goes out of it's way to demonstrate a product. It works and they get good results and get nitpicked over bullshit. COBB damn near blows a guys car up with 23+ psi boost spikes and the world comes to defend their excellent customer service if anyone says anything negative about them.

[Laloosh]

i seriously dont see the big deal here, like i said if boost was equal on both runs, then the gains are valid. But i guess if it isnt a shit peak number thats covered by the 'its a broad powerband' BULLSHIT then its not good

[phailerider]

I think all the guys knocking the gains on this car, cause it had a boost controller on it need to shut the fuck up and look at what we are comparing it to.....

tunes that dont make any power...period.

They made a dyno, they stated the circumstances on an otherwise stock car, they posted the results. What am I missing?

Only a hater fool would cast stones at the gains and how they were achieved. Bottom line is if you own a cx7... id say a throttle flash with an untuned, zeroed out standback, hitting 15psi... just became a pretty goddam big option to consider. Slap an intake on that thing and you got a fast suv.

The gains might be valid, but on stock boost they might be smaller, and the throttle control, since the CX7 is FWD, is there more torque steer? Mcx7.com claims to rarely hit 14.9.. always in the 12-13psi range, and 8psi in first, 12psi in second.

[Betelgeuse]

Originally Posted by www.cp-e.com I have no problem with that statement, and I'd agree with you. That's why we were very clear that the Standback was on the vehicle, and the CX7 was otherwise stock. We're not trying to use smoke and mirrors here. What I do have a problem with is people immediately jumping to the conclusion that the flash doesn't make any power without the Standback. That's just not fair. Thanks for the kudos though smakdown, we all appreciate it here.

You're acting like it's a huge deal to just dyno the flash. Maybe I'm missing something? Is there some technical hurdle that makes that impossible? Or are you afraid the gains may not be as much as you claim? Just honest questions.

The impression you gave in the first post is the stanback makes no difference at all even at 15psi and we should all just accept that it's stock and treat it as such. I think that claim is what most have a beef with.

Also, I don't think anyone at this time believes the flash makes no power at all or needs the stanback to make power. I think you've proven that there is some gain. The question is how much? Numbers ranging from 5hp to 30hp is being thrown around and a bone stock flash would be a good starting point to get some concrete numbers.

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by Grim why do people keep arguing over the flash? If you dont like it then quit bitching about it and leave.we have herd it all before. Its not like CP-e is making you buy this.

Maybe the same reason certain people claim the AP is too expensive and does not provide a good bang for the buck. Flash or no flash - if you hold 15 psi you will see gains . Point is, by running additional boost you are negating the results. The question should be the following

Does the flash increase power only by setting TPS at 100 % ?

With the test conducted you cannot conclude that . An accurate test would be to flash and use a dash hawk for datalogging or the AE tool if you want to be thorough. No boost increase , no hard mods just flash.

Harry

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by ztuner Maybe the same reason certain people claim the AP is too expensive and does not provide a good bang for the buck. Flash or no flash - if you hold 15 psi you will see gains . Point is, by running additional boost you are negating the results. The question should be the following Does the flash increase power only by setting TPS at 100 % ? With the test conducted you cannot conclude that . An accurate test would be to flash and use a dash hawk for datalogging or the AE tool if you want to be thorough. No boost increase , no hard mods just flash. Harry

You're wrong about this assertion because the standback was connected for both runs. The only difference was the throttle plate opening.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse You're acting like it's a huge deal to just dyno the flash. Maybe I'm missing something? Is there some technical hurdle that makes that impossible? Or are you afraid the gains may not be as much as you claim? Just honest questions. The impression you gave in the first post is the stanback makes no difference at all even at 15psi and we should all just accept that it's stock and treat it as such. I think that claim is what most have a beef with. Also, I don't think anyone at this time believes the flash makes no power at all or needs the stanback to make power. I think you've proven that there is some gain. The question is how much? Numbers ranging from 5hp to 30hp is being thrown around and a bone stock flash would be a good starting point to get some concrete numbers.

Which is EXACTLY the fuckin point im trying to PROVE.

Jordan, if you are going to toss out numbers, than expect to be questioned. Why is it, we cant get a stock dyno and the same stock vehicle, re-dyno'd with this flash, same day? Try a different marketing angle because people are seeing this for exactly what it is, marketing.

Who cares if the damn car makes say only 5hp stock over stock vs flashed... That is CREDIBLE data... its when the OTHER items that you try to count for, throw these out the window. You can zero out the standback, i bet the numbers didn't change whether they were at 3/4/2/1 values anyhow.. What does change is the fact you are using it as an electronic boost additive. Thats when the credibility, goes bye bye.

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by Haltech Which is EXACTLY the fuckin point im trying to PROVE. Jordan, if you are going to toss out numbers, than expect to be questioned. Why is it, we cant get a stock dyno and the same stock vehicle, re-dyno'd with this flash, same day? Try a different marketing angle because people are seeing this for exactly what it is, marketing. Who cares if the damn car makes say only 5hp stock over stock vs flashed... That is CREDIBLE data... its when the OTHER items that you try to count for, throw these out the window. You can zero out the standback, i bet the numbers didn't change whether they were at 3/4/2/1 values anyhow.. What does change is the fact you are using it as an electronic boost additive. Thats when the credibility, goes bye bye.

except that the "electronic boost additive" was used on both runs and the only difference was the flash.

[Betelgeuse]

We'd like it without the 'electronic boost additive'.

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar You're wrong about this assertion because the standback was connected for both runs. The only difference was the throttle plate opening.

So the boost was 15 psi on both runs ?

Harry

[superskaterxes]

CPE should find a stock vehicle and flash it w/o anything else just to get people to STFU.

heres an idea, tell the local mazda dealer you want to test drive a CX-7 or MS3 and you want to keep it for an over night. flash it the same day and dyno it and BAM theres your problem solved. easier said then done but its a possible solution.


P.S. what do you think mazda would say if you gave them the car back but diddent tell them you left the flash on? haha

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by ztuner So the boost was 15 psi on both runs ? Harry

Yes it was. The SB default is 15 psi. If Jordan had been more careful he would have dialed the factory boost which, I believe, is somewhat lower. He plugged it in with the PnP so that they could log with it when they were developing the flash. cp-e didn't have an AE or dashhawk. They drove the SB equipped flashed car to the dyno, did the runs, pulled the ecu, brought it back to Lou, flashed it back to stock and put it back in the car for the stock flash runs.

[lidokrantz]

holy smokes!! almost spilled my beer twice reading this tonight. First off i believe we ALL agree the TP Flash works, on fully bolted cars as well as stock..you" standardized" your dyno runs which proves good gains. I am a believer...but there are some folks who do not want the Standback used and feel you standardizing your tests thru this tool may change some of the results. It is no longer questioned, wether the opening of the TP showed gains, it does, and we can move to phase2
the problem is with folks that want the tests run with a stock car and stock ECU without the SB, before and after....indeed, you can do this in the future to put an end to this crazy debate, because both sides arguments are CORRECT!!!!!!!! it's just a matter as how you show the gains.(I) YOU should be proud to show the gains in any standardized dyno test/run.......There are many more folks out there with stock ECU's at the moment than us guy's that want to tune so for a big share of the market i would think once dyno time is more accessable than this may be a good time to do these type of runs,,,,If i did not say it yet..Congrat's CP-E for bringing so much to the table(cars) for our community!!Besides being brilliant engineers, i hear you guy's have the common sense mind to back it up.
Everyone is a winner here with this flash!!! I personally am not worried it was not done on a stock car, i can see past that a bit, but i do understand and respect what these guy's want.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes CPE should find a stock vehicle and flash it w/o anything else just to get people to STFU. heres an idea, tell the local mazda dealer you want to test drive a CX-7 or MS3 and you want to keep it for an over night. flash it the same day and dyno it and BAM theres your problem solved. easier said then done but its a possible solution. P.S. what do you think mazda would say if you gave them the car back but diddent tell them you left the flash on? haha

Probably sell a shitload? CX-7 GT-r

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse We'd like it without the 'electronic boost additive'.

no you wouldnt... it'd still be the wrong brand.

Whats funny is that this kind of gain would be awesome if they had claimed they tuned the whole motherfucker using the standback and flash.

Lets see.

Lets pretend instead of what they really did... they actually had....

used the standback to adjust boost
change timing
pull fuel
etc

then the gains would have still been devastating to the competition. but alas, they didnt. they used it to datalog with boost locked in for both runs. thats even better. now we know what it will do with the 90% of guys who would actually buy it.

you dont think guys would actually buy the throttle flash without first owning the standback do you? starnge if you considered it.

anyway.... the whole thread is a joke. if you own a cx7.... im sure your excited despite the fact that there are some scorned cobb fanatics bitching about the " unfair" addition of that goddam "poweradding" standback....lol

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar Yes it was. The SB default is 15 psi. If Jordan had been more careful he would have dialed the factory boost which, I believe, is somewhat lower. He plugged it in with the PnP so that they could log with it when they were developing the flash. cp-e didn't have an AE or dashhawk. They drove the SB equipped flashed car to the dyno, did the runs, pulled the ecu, brought it back to Lou, flashed it back to stock and put it back in the car for the stock flash runs.

Ok fair enough. That makes it reasonable. Its just the way the main post was worded that me confused. I have a question a possible explanation. Why was the dyno curve so jagged ? Explanation - the torque converter might be going in and out of lockup. The dyno would be more valuable if you grounded the lockup solonoid when you were in the appropriate gear - just a suggestion.

Harry

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by palerider no you wouldnt... it'd still be the wrong brand. Whats funny is that this kind of gain would be awesome if they had claimed they tuned the whole motherfucker using the standback and flash. Lets see. Lets pretend instead of what they really did... they actually had.... used the standback to adjust boost change timing pull fuel etc then the gains would have still been devastating to the competition. but alas, they didnt. they used it to datalog with boost locked in for both runs. thats even better. now we know what it will do with the 90% of guys who would actually buy it. you dont think guys would actually buy the throttle flash without first owning the standback do you? starnge if you considered it. anyway.... the whole thread is a joke. if you own a cx7.... im sure your excited despite the fact that there are some scorned cobb fanatics bitching about the " unfair" addition of that goddam "poweradding" standback....lol

All right i'll bite. I will switch back my ecu and mods to stock. Dyno my car, log all relevent PID's. Easy to do because i have a race pipe and SRi only. Send Cp-e my ecu. Get the flash, dyno it and log all PID's. Heck if the tune is good i will even pay. Sound fair ? Contact me offline if this is of interest.

thanks

Harry