ATR so far

[ztuner]

Hi,

As some of you know in prepration for ATR i had switched to as close to stock as possible. All i have now is a vibrant cat back. Here is a summary of my experience with it so far.

1. I have sucessfully eliminated knock from my tune. I started with the stock tune and adjusted A/F to a steady mid 11 an reduced part throttle timing to get rid of part throttle an cold start knock. To me this was the biggest benifit so far from the ATR so far and i am very happy with it as a result.

2. I have been able to increase boost to about 18 psi with minimal spike dropping down 16 psi by 6000 rpm. I have been only partially sucessful in eliminating boost spike and have not been able to get full 18 psi to 6000 rpm even though my duty cycle hits 100 % right around 5000 rpm. My best guess is that there is a physical limitation preventing me from maintaining boost over said rpm. I will first pop in a Forge BPV to see if i can hold more boost. If that does not work i will install my ETS TMIC to see if the issue is IC boost drop related. I would like to maintain a steady 18 psi to 6000 rpm if possible.
a. FYI Boost comp , boost targets do have an affect at WOT unlike what is stated by cobb. Load tables alone will not work.
b. I tried to achive boost targets thu load changes per gear but trimmed everything down with the boost comp table to prevent over boosting in higher gears. I can only guess but it seems this is what mazda was aiming for.
c. I have fuel cut and throttle taper set fairly low at 21 psi and 20.5 psi respectively to maintain some level of safety. I thnk this comes into play in 5th and 6th gear to prevent runaway boosting under high load.

3. Thanks to someones post here the OL to CL transition issue is fixed IMO with the exit delay times halfed. That setup worked very well for me.

4. I am also using Aarons plateau maps in the load tables thus forcing it to use only the gear based load maps. I have however reduced the absolute load values down from 2.5 to 2.0 to again maintain some level of safety. In all my logging i have not seen the abs load go over 1.88 so i figure 2.0 is a safe bet.

5. In my case the MAF tables were fairly consistent since i am on stock intake so my LTFT's fell in line quite easily with minimal adjustments to the maf table.

Hope this helps all you ATR users. Just wanted to note what i observed so far

Harry

[Haltech]

Good stuff Harry.. By chance, how much timing did you actually having to remove from the part throttle tables to tame the part throttle knock?

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Haltech Good stuff Harry.. By chance, how much timing did you actually having to remove from the part throttle tables to tame the part throttle knock?

this thread should be stickied imo. i think harry is on to something HUGE. we all drive around in our little 4cyl with open intakes and exhaust detonating like mother fuckers. wicked stock timing advance, hot, and lean as hell.... and then we wonder why all our cars blow the hell up pulling out of a stopsign.

[ztuner]

Untitled Document - Here you go Hal. I did the top 3 rows to all timing maps.

Harry

[timv]

Originally Posted by ztuner Untitled Document - Here you go Hal. I did the top 3 rows to all timing maps. Harry

What map did you start with for that timing map?

All the maps I looked at are much more aggressive....

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Originally Posted by timv What map did you start with for that timing map? All the maps I looked at are much more aggressive....

Thats the problem .. from stock even they're VERY aggressive and don't need to be at part throttle.

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by timv What map did you start with for that timing map? All the maps I looked at are much more aggressive....

stock

[timv]

Originally Posted by ztuner stock

That's odd because the installed stock mode with v103 maps looks like this.

[whoosh@Realtune]

excellent post man

[bova]

perhaps you can share some snippets of your other tables with us.

[superskaterxes]

nice work Z, things are really coming together for ATR at this point, so much for that 6 month wait for the pro tuners to use it lolol

[Fobio]

thanks harry. good shit as always!

[ztuner]

i started with the stock map programmed into the atr - the one you get when you select load stock map.

Harry

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Which as Cobb states is Stock LIKE

[timv]

nevermind

[timv]

Originally Posted by timv There must be something that is different between my ATR and yours because even if I load the stock map values into ATR it still shows me a more aggressive map, almost 2 higher in all positions, same numbers as I posted..... Very odd....

Nevermind, I was looking at the high throttle tables.......
So, did you make the changes just to the two low throttle maps?

Thanks for the good explanation of what you've discovered so far....

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by timv Nevermind, I was looking at the high throttle tables....... So, did you make the changes just to the two low throttle maps? Thanks for the good explanation of what you've discovered so far....

yes and i basically copied the low throttle 1st 3 rows into the high throttle timing maps for consistency even though logic dictates you cannot hit the first 3 rows if you are going wot.

Harry

[bova]

this was posted in the fix jerky throttle response table but i'm trying to understand why? going by the values in the table i dont understand some justification, like why only table d for max load? and some of the max throttle tables have values of like 110 in them but it starts at 2000rpm not 2500rpm.

Originally Posted by SLS MS3 A couple of months ago Christian had me experiment with some Closed Loop table changes to see how the car responds. After making the changes, it felt like my car became more eager to go fast. Here are the changes for anyone that wants to try them. Closed Loop - Exit Delay A 15 Closed Loop - Exit Delay B 40 Closed Loop - Exit Delay C 40 Closed Loop - Max Load D 2500 - 1.55 3000 - 1.57 3500 - 1.57 4000 - 1.40 4500 - 1.40 5000 - 0.40 5500 - 0.33 Closed Loop - Max Throttle B 2500 - 60.00 3000 - 60.00 3500 - 60.00 4000 - 60.00 4500 - 60.00 5000 - 60.00 5500 - 60.00 6000 - 60.00 6500 - 60.00 7000 - 60.00 Closed Loop - Max Throttle C 2500 - 60.00 3000 - 60.00 3500 - 60.00 4000 - 60.00 4500 - 60.00 5000 - 60.00 5500 - 60.00 6000 - 60.00 6500 - 60.00 7000 - 60.00 Closed Loop - Max Throttle D 2500 - 60.00 3000 - 60.00 3500 - 60.00 4000 - 60.00 4500 - 60.00 5000 - 60.00 5500 - 60.00 6000 - 60.00 6500 - 60.00 7000 - 60.00

[bova]

now did you copy the part throttle tables to be the same for both knock and no knock?

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by bova80 now did you copy the part throttle tables to be the same for both knock and no knock?

only the section in question

[SLS MS3]

Originally Posted by ztuner Hi, As some of you know in prepration for ATR i had switched to as close to stock as possible. All i have now is a vibrant cat back. Here is a summary of my experience with it so far. 1. I have sucessfully eliminated knock from my tune. I started with the stock tune and adjusted A/F to a steady mid 11 an reduced part throttle timing to get rid of part throttle an cold start knock. To me this was the biggest benifit so far from the ATR so far and i am very happy with it as a result. 2. I have been able to increase boost to about 18 psi with minimal spike dropping down 16 psi by 6000 rpm. I have been only partially sucessful in eliminating boost spike and have not been able to get full 18 psi to 6000 rpm even though my duty cycle hits 100 % right around 5000 rpm. My best guess is that there is a physical limitation preventing me from maintaining boost over said rpm. I will first pop in a Forge BPV to see if i can hold more boost. If that does not work i will install my ETS TMIC to see if the issue is IC boost drop related. I would like to maintain a steady 18 psi to 6000 rpm if possible. a. FYI Boost comp , boost targets do have an affect at WOT unlike what is stated by cobb. Load tables alone will not work. b. I tried to achive boost targets thu load changes per gear but trimmed everything down with the boost comp table to prevent over boosting in higher gears. I can only guess but it seems this is what mazda was aiming for. c. I have fuel cut and throttle taper set fairly low at 21 psi and 20.5 psi respectively to maintain some level of safety. I thnk this comes into play in 5th and 6th gear to prevent runaway boosting under high load. 3. Thanks to someones post here the OL to CL transition issue is fixed IMO with the exit delay times halfed. That setup worked very well for me. 4. I am also using Aarons plateau maps in the load tables thus forcing it to use only the gear based load maps. I have however reduced the absolute load values down from 2.5 to 2.0 to again maintain some level of safety. In all my logging i have not seen the abs load go over 1.88 so i figure 2.0 is a safe bet. 5. In my case the MAF tables were fairly consistent since i am on stock intake so my LTFT's fell in line quite easily with minimal adjustments to the maf table. Hope this helps all you ATR users. Just wanted to note what i observed so far Harry

1. It's nice to hear someone has been able to use ATR to their advantage. These "breakthroughs" sure seem few and far between right now, but at least the knowledge base within the community is slowly starting to build up.

2. Have you ever tested your stock BPV for leaks? I am curious to know if the stock turbo is capable of holding 18psi @ 6k on a nearly stock car. It probably is a physical limitation. I'm using the Bosst Comp tables in a similar way, mainly to try to prevent overboosting. In most of the testing I've done, the ECU seems to ignore these tables almost completely. Hopefully they will be able to get Live Tracing working like it should, that would be a big help. If Live Tracing could be integrated into Data Logging, that would be amazing. Being able to go back and see what value in which table is used when would get things moving a lot faster.

3. Agreed

4. That's a pretty safe move. On my fully-bolted car, I don't get much over 2.00 myself. I do wish there was a way to see both Calculated Load and Absolute Load.

5. How long do you plan to keep the stock intake?

Originally Posted by bova80 going by the values in the table i dont understand some justification, like why only table d for max load? and some of the max throttle tables have values of like 110 in them but it starts at 2000rpm not 2500rpm.

Because under "normal" driving conditions, those are the tables used. Max Load Tables A, B, C, and E also already have much lower values than D. This is MS3 specific as well, for MS6's you'd be changing Max Load Table C.

[bova]

any reasoning to leaving closed loop - max throttle A table values up in the 100's rather than down in the 60s as the rest of the tables?

[SLS MS3]

Actually 2 of the 5 tables are left with values the 110's. On MS3's tables A and E, on MS6's tables A and D. I didn't change them because I don't know when they get used. The stock values seem to make them never apply. It's possible they only get used when certain CELs are displayed, or when the car is in limp mode, or some other unusual circumstance like that.

[bova]

so i made the changes ztuner did to the partial throttle timing table and i think we might have to go further than the top 3 rows. at absolute values from around .6-.8 i still saw some knock retard of .3-1.06 at times but not very often. the 1.06 was a 1 time occurence. i did a datalog over 8miles and there wasn't much knock at all unlike the past few days where i pretty much could get it to happen on the spot. now granted you might say the map needs time to learn, true, but last time i flashed a map it didn't take long for KR to pop up.

the 1.06 degrees of KR happen at 2327rpm, spark advance was 20.50 and calculated load was .72. afr was 14.81, relative pressure -2.03psi.

side note, does anyone know how to save ATR logs?

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by bova80 so i made the changes ztuner did to the partial throttle timing table and i think we might have to go further than the top 3 rows. at absolute values from around .6-.8 i still saw some knock retard of .3-1.06 at times but not very often. the 1.06 was a 1 time occurence. i did a datalog over 8miles and there wasn't much knock at all unlike the past few days where i pretty much could get it to happen on the spot. now granted you might say the map needs time to learn, true, but last time i flashed a map it didn't take long for KR to pop up. the 1.06 degrees of KR happen at 2327rpm, spark advance was 20.50 and calculated load was .72. afr was 14.81, relative pressure -2.03psi. side note, does anyone know how to save ATR logs?

excellent - watch the load column and adjust the entire row down 2 degree at a time to see if it solves your knocking issue.

Harry

[bova]

i was thinking load will probably be different between speed3 and speed6 since speed6 is heavier and awd.

[Scatt Nasty]

I did this adjustment as well. You can tell the car feels kind of sluggish in the lower rpm's, which I dont mind if it will cure my knock. I drove about 10 miles, letting my car sit for 2 hours in between. I only saw .3 knock the entire time. It was part throttle shifting from 2nd to 3rd, maybe at 3 psi of boost

[superskaterxes]

so what if i rarely have PT knock? do i still retard timing for the longevity of my motor? i thought PT knock diddent matter because of low cyl pressures?

[fjames]

I did this a week ago or so and took it down to the 1.0 load level thereabouts, depends what map you're starting with I guess - I had taken the ignition tables from the most conservative ots map I could find, then knocked it down from there.

[SLS MS3]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes so what if i rarely have PT knock? do i still retard timing for the longevity of my motor? i thought PT knock diddent matter because of low cyl pressures?

If you aren't knocking, keep timing where it is. Reducing timing will make the car sluggish and negatively affect your gas mileage. And it's not that PT knock doesn't matter, it's just not as potentially harmful as WOT knock for the reason you said.

[dread]

I don't think it is even knock. The ecu is reacting before the knock occurs

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by dread I don't think it is even knock. The ecu is reacting before the knock occurs

if it isn't knock then why woul reucing timing take away the KR ?

Harry

[Fobio]

I've applied ztuner's table to my map.

I don't get any idle KR, PT knock as high as 5.9cts around 3000rpm cruising, WOT might hit .7cts and usually shows when I pop off the throttle from WOT.

the car doesn't pick up as quick, so I MAY play around with it, but once you stay on the throttle for another moment, it goes.

[bova]

Originally Posted by Fobio I've applied ztuner's table to my map. I don't get any idle KR, PT knock as high as 5.9cts around 3000rpm cruising, WOT might hit .7cts and usually shows when I pop off the throttle from WOT. the car doesn't pick up as quick, so I MAY play around with it, but once you stay on the throttle for another moment, it goes.

just so you know knock isn't measured in counts, its measured in degrees. so when you see 5.9, thats how many degrees the ecu just pulled to stave off knock.

[itzl0l]

great thread....i would LOVE to know what sort of changes you have made to the boost comp tables, I kept thinking to myself that they HAVE to be used to something other than part throttle.....

[bast525]

One reason that I agree with Dread in that I am not so sure that it is actually knocking...

At WOT, there have been a few times where I have seen KR in the 4.x to 6.x range. When this has happened, I have HEARD the pinging. Very clearly, very f'ing scary.

Yet, at part throttle, there are days when I routinely see KR go over 4.x (not since using the S2++ throttle mapping fix posted by Aaronc7 and did some MAF tweaking though). But never once can I say I've heard ping at part throttle even when the KR reading was all over the place. By the same token, when I've seen/heard 4.x and above, I felt a dramatic loss in power, the car just choked. At part throttle, I've never felt any loss in power or hesitation when I see the KR.

considering the very light amount of load and all the things that Cobb has said and documented about this, I am inclined not to worry about the part throttle KR right now. I do however want to do whatever I can do to get rid of KR at WOT with minimal loss in power. Air/fuel ratios are in the mid 11's at WOT, so I think I'm ok there... so should I turn my attention to the High Throttle/OL (No Knock) tables? Where should I pull timing and how much should I pull? I do see up to 1.0 fairly regularly at WOT, and once ina blue moon for no apparent reason I will get crazy 5.x KR and audible ping, very unpredictable and unrepeatable....

[dread]

from the tuning guide:
"Generally speaking, the ECU will try to run as much ignition advance as possible during part-throttle conditions in order to determine MBT. This is done through advanced detonation detection measures using the knock sensor. When the ECU calculates reports of KR while at WOT, the ECU will remove ignition advance and add fuel to help protect the engine. If the ECU does not run excessive ignition advance, then it cannot determine the detonation threshold of the engine for the given conditions. If you are to run less ignition advance, then the engine will be less efficient, generating greater emissions, achieving lesser fuel economy...and the engine will still detonate (and the ECU will report KR)under some conditions."

I am sticking with my knock and assuming Christian knows what he is talking about.

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by dread from the tuning guide: "Generally speaking, the ECU will try to run as much ignition advance as possible during part-throttle conditions in order to determine MBT. This is done through advanced detonation detection measures using the knock sensor. When the ECU calculates reports of KR while at WOT, the ECU will remove ignition advance and add fuel to help protect the engine. If the ECU does not run excessive ignition advance, then it cannot determine the detonation threshold of the engine for the given conditions. If you are to run less ignition advance, then the engine will be less efficient, generating greater emissions, achieving lesser fuel economy...and the engine will still detonate (and the ECU will report KR)under some conditions." I am sticking with my knock and assuming Christian knows what he is talking about.

Fair enough but it has to use some reference table to do that. Thats what these timing maps are. Most systems o not allow infinate adjustment.- if you lower the reference table it can only advance timing so far.

[Fobio]

after testing some more, I may advance the timing back up some. I also think the PT knock isn't as bad as WOT knock, so this is still proof that the phantom knock can be tuned out, but whether you think it's necessary or not is dependent on your specific application.

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by Fobio after testing some more, I may advance the timing back up some. I also think the PT knock isn't as bad as WOT knock, so this is still proof that the phantom knock can be tuned out, but whether you think it's necessary or not is dependent on your specific application.

Thats the point - if its phantom knock it cannot be tuned tuned out with timing. The car infact IS knocking. Knock intensity varies an so does the sound associated with it. The sensor can pick up knock that is inistinguishisable to the human ear without aditional equipment like a scope or microphone. I have seen "silent knock" for the lack of a better word while tuning other cars . it is apparent in the dyno chart an if you use a aftermarket knock monotoring system you can actually hear it using headphones. Take it for whats its worth.

Harry