Rear strut bar musings

[the_red_baron]

Warning: lots of rambling ahead.

So the autox season starts in September in Florida and I plan on doing at least 8 autox, and hopefully as many Track Night in America, events around the state. Finally went and got separate wheels and tires (my only mod if you want to look at it that way) so the next sensible suspension change I can make and stay in street class is the RSB.

I visited Apex Alignment down in Miami as many people I talked to at events all said Albert was the guy to go to. He has extensive experience racing Mazdas, mainly Miatas from what I can tell, but also has experience with many other platforms both front and rear wheel drive. Now his advice was to put the fattest rear bar I could get my hands on if I was serious about spending a lot of time racing to really help bring the back of the car around. That led me to researching the rear bars and their different stiffnesses.

I find it interesting how each vendor decides how to advertise their bars. Some rate them as a percent stiffer than stock, some give lbs/in number, some just say the width of the bar. Based on all my research so far, JBR is the only vendor that publishes both the bars lb/in numbers alongside the stock numbers so one could compare easily. Of course it's not the only place I could find the stock numbers but it still helps. Using these numbers and extrapolating the lbs/in of other bars based on vendors' published ratings, if I'm correct, the JBR .250 competition bar has the stiffest settings over any of the other bars which makes it the most attractive if I follow the advice I was given. Of course it is also the most expensive as it's the bar they use on the All Out Motorsports Mazdaspeed 3 so it's designed to be robust (also marketing).

I know that there are only so many absolutes and each car and driver are different. It's easy to go STIFFEN ALL THE THINGS and then wind up with a car that either drives like garbage or is more car than a driver can handle (ask me about my WRX wagon) but the idiot tuner part of my brain goes "the most means the best!". That being said, @phate;, one of our well regarded suspension gurus, has stated in a thread about replacing both front and rear bars:

Originally Posted by phate Just remember that response and grip are significantly different beasts. Just because something responds faster doesn't mean you've improved the overall grip. The MS3 doesn't need more front bar, and not a lot more rear bar, to improve grip.

This is the opposite of the previously mentioned advice I was given but I would be foolish to not take his insight into account when thinking about the bar.

So I'm feeling torn on the subject. Spending more money just to spend more money is stupid as hell. I just wonder if it's more worth going for the stiffer and more expensive ($315) and selling if it's overkill or going softer and cheaper ($195) and selling if it's not enough. I know I could donate and buy used but I haven't yet so I don't know the current market for these things used so I'm going purely on new prices right now.

I've probably put way too much time into thinking about this and everything I posted above probably boils down to not much at all but I process my thoughts better when I put them outside of my own head. If anyone has any input I'd appreciate the conversation and input. Thanks guys.

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[phate]

Honestly, a rear bar for a street class MS3 will be more about getting enough rotation so you can drive the car narrower without making it impossibly oversteery. I'd probably start with an adjustable bar to get it close, then trim the behavior with bushings. You guys have tons of options with the MS3 and they're relatively inexpensive and they're super easy to change out. This is a case where I would probably throw something at the car initially and just do some iterative testing rather than modeling.

[shamie]

My thought is if you're lifting the inside rear tire at all you don't need any more bar.

I slightly lift with the small JBR in the middle setting. I'm road racing and not autox though. I'm not looking for any snap oversteer just some rotating help.

[the_red_baron]

Thanks guys. Yeah see that's why I wasn't sure if going crazy stiff was worth the money. I was also thinking JBR since he's the only one I found that has 3 different settings. I figured more choice is better since I'm going to be doing both road course and autox.

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[Sierra248]

Yeah I have the smaller JBR bar on my 07 and it will lift a wheel on tight slower turns also. I have mine in the middle position. I’ve often thought of putting it on the stiffest setting(for like the past 3 years. Lol) the only reason I don’t is when I’m off throttle the car handles great, it’s only when I’m trying to put more power down then my star specs can handle that it understears or when it’s wet. I think for the street the JBR in the middle is perfect and keep u safe on the road. I can go around an on ramp and hold the wheel in the exact same space and keep it in the lane just by throttleing up to push it to outside and lifting to pull it in. I’ve been doing that in FWD cars for a long time on the way to Tampa on the right hand 275 on ramp. Was allot safer in my 94 Sentra SE-R(i miss that car so much, my first new car ever, I’m old) that had believe it or not 185/60/14 stock rims. Still one of the best cars I’ve ever been in and definetly the best car I’ve ever owned. 2300lbs and 140hp doesn’t sound like much these days but I surprised many a 90’s mustangs back in the day.

[the_red_baron]

Oh man B13 SE-R represent. I had a 98 SE Limited which was the SE-R for that year. It must have been underwater before I bought it though, it turned into a heap. Bought for 5k sold for 500. I do miss it, though it became my beater once I bought an 05 ACR SRT-4. I figure I'll go regular JBR later on in the season or maybe at the end. Got the first kid on the way so while I don't plan on not indulging in my unnecessarily expensive hobby, the parts train will just have to go that much slower.

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[mgeoffriau]

SR20DE crew checking in! Have owned:

1992 SE-R (ragged out, modified by PO)
1994 SE-R (absolutely cherry condition, stupidly totaled it when I attempted to drive from Mississippi to Vermont solo with no overnight stops)
1995 G20 (not as peppy, but superior suspension design)
2001 Sentra SE 2.0 PP (still own, previous daily driver before my recent 2009 MS3 purchase)

[Sierra248]

We’ve got similar taste. I had a 94, bought with 7 miles on it just out of high school for 13,800( Those were the days). I left mine completely stock except for an intake and short throw. I went to Gainesville for college and stayed there a few years extra. I had 143,000 miles on it when I sold it in summer of 2000. Thing had been everywhere from skiing in Northern Maine to NYC, multiple times, Atlanta, Savanna, Phoenix. I loved that damn car and even though it was small, we’d cram 4 people(big guys too) in it and just head out somewhere. Because the tires were so narrow and the suspension so soft, it was really a great car on the highway. Much better then my speed3. I was in a bad mood in Gainesville one day and the battery died. Been looking at the 2000 Sentra Se for awhile as had same motor and 5 more HP. They gave me 1200bucks for my 94(I’m sure time after time people say this about cars, but was so stupid of me to sell) it was still in great shape. I’d never changed 1 thing other then oil and tranny fluid in it. It had zero problems. Back then those days the cars were slow and the internet slower so I didn’t know about timing chains or what ever. I did plugs I think. No clutch, I drove the piss out of that car as it wasn’t fast, you could hit 7500 Redline all day every day. The day I bought the 2000 Sentra SE was such a huge mistake and when driving home to show my friends in Clearwater I knew it. It had this weird floaty feel to the suspension and I remember weaving back and forth on the way home thinking that the tires were low or high psi or something was wrong, nope suspnsion just sucked. The engine felt like it lost 40hp from the added weight of being newer and having 4 doors and they lowered the Redline to 6600. It was a dog of a car. I drove the hell out of that and when I traded it for my 07 speed 3. They gave me like 2200 or something and it had 100k on it or more and had seen better days. In 2000right next door was a Honda dealership I had planned to go to after Nissan and test drive a 2000 civic Si which had no torque but would have been a way better option and an 8k Redline. Now a days everyone thinks 3,000 lbs is a light car but that 94 was around 2350 and it really pulled. I just looked and it was a 7 second 0-60 car which wasn’t bad and it would pull 100 in 3rd.

I still say it all the time, if I could have a brand new 9x-94 Sentra SE-R, I’d give up my speed 3 for sure. No power windows, I can’t remember if it had power doors, no alarm. Just a straight up well made machine that you young guys will not understand or ever see again. If some car company would mak something like that again, in today’s day, I really think it would sell. I guess the FRS is closest thing I can think of but that’s more like 2850lbs. Nissan hasn’t made a car that good since. I’m sure allot is just sentimental thinking as I was in my 20’s, barely worked and partied all the time but every friend that I still have that knew and drove that car, knows what I’m talking about. We had some great fucking times in that car in the 90’s. I feel like I’m telling the last lines to stand by me. Lol

Originally Posted by mgeoffriau SR20DE crew checking in! Have owned: 1992 SE-R (ragged out, modified by PO) 1994 SE-R (absolutely cherry condition, stupidly totaled it when I attempted to drive from Mississippi to Vermont solo with no overnight stops) 1995 G20 (not as peppy, but superior suspension design) 2001 Sentra SE 2.0 PP (still own, previous daily driver before my recent 2009 MS3 purchase)

[the_red_baron]

No one will ever make cars like that again. Silvias (240SX), Integras, Civic hatchbacks, RX-7s, air cooled Porsches, simple (by modern standards) cars with big engine bays and big green houses and anything else you can think of from the 80s and 90s, all those great light import cars will never be a thing again because of safety standards. People used to bash the SRT-4 because it had "huge" A pillars. I've been in cars and SUVs nowadays that make those pillars look absolutely anorexic. I was just discussing with my father how now all the people buying "classic" cars are now driving the prices of the cars we either grew up with or grew up wanting up. I honestly think no matter how well I wind up financially as time goes on, I'll never get a chance to get my hands on an FC3S RX-7. Everytime I turn around they're more and more expensive. And then I realize how old we're all getting. It's fun growing up guys! T_T

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