Gen 2 Cobb ATR discussion

[xsilent13x]

I just recently went to a dyno and I was very disappointed on the outcome (223whp/259tq with all my mods). The tech said that it felt like the stock plugs were gone (prolly from running 50/50 for so long) and my dyno chart looked like it was bouncing (I'll post a pic of the dyno when I find it). I got the Denso ITV22 plugs installed and set my BOV to recirc and my logs look similar to the previous ones. After reading the timing thread by Dano and looking at my logs my timing looks way different. Now the only thing I changed on the Stage 2 OTS was the WGDC since I was under-boosting ~2psi so the timing on my logs is completely OTS. Should I follow suit and up my spark adv to ~9-16*?

Here are the logs before my new plugs: http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post798462

The most recent log after replacing plugs is attached to this post.

Thanks for the help.

[wolly6973]

You need moar boost!
Up the boost to 18 psi if you run 91, 19 psi if on 93.
You could also lean it out to around 11.8.

Are you sure you are running the stg2 map? It has higher boost targets than 16.5...

[xsilent13x]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 You need moar boost! Up the boost to 18 psi if you run 91, 19 psi if on 93. You could also lean it out to around 11.8. Are you sure you are running the stg2 map? It has higher boost targets than 16.5...

Yea it seems the Stage 2 OTS maps have very conservative WGDC so after I changed that I'm hitting good boost (i.e. the log attached to the post) and somewhat spiking at 20.8 psi but at high rpms. What worries me is the timing....why is it so low?

[wolly6973]

You shouldn't be adjusting your boost targets via the wgdc, you should be changing them with the boost targets table. Your wgdc table just helps you reach your target.
What are your boost targets?
Timing should be the last thing you worry about when tuning.
You need to first dial in your MAF, then fuel, then boost, THEN timing...

Timing is conservative on the OTS maps bc just like everything else, it is set at a safe level + some buffer to account for car to car variances.

[xsilent13x]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 You shouldn't be adjusting your boost targets via the wgdc, you should be changing them with the boost targets table. Your wgdc table just helps you reach your target. What are your boost targets? Timing should be the last thing you worry about when tuning. You need to first dial in your MAF, then fuel, then boost, THEN timing... Timing is conservative on the OTS maps bc just like everything else, it is set at a safe level + some buffer to account for car to car variances.

Yes I know I wasn't hitting my boost targets....soooooo......I chaged th WGDC......lol

[wolly6973]

So can you post a recent log then, showing your increased wgdc and boost?

[xsilent13x]

Omg....post #41 of this thread....like I said twice has the latest log attached....lol =P

[JS + MS3]

Originally Posted by Nataphen Start by leaning out your AFR targets to about 11.9 from 3k+, this will help with power and fuel pressure. It's the single most helpful thing that you can do to keep your stock pump in check.

So, in order to do this, I'm supposed to change the values in Fuel OL/WOT Commanded EQ (No Knock A&B), correct?

These are the current values in the cell
3k - 5k
11.066
5.5k
10.981
6k
10.896

I should put 11.900 in these cells right? :hide:

[wolly6973]

Yeah, but then you say you have upped the wgdc and are seeing 20.8 psi of boost.

Originally Posted by JS + MS3 So, in order to do this, I'm supposed to change the values in Fuel OL/WOT Commanded EQ (No Knock A&B), correct? These are the current values in the cell 3k - 5k 11.066 5.5k 10.981 6k 10.896 I should put 11.900 in these cells right? :hide:

yes, from 3k up

[JS + MS3]

when I put 11.9 in the cell, the font goes red. what did I do here

im assuming it's just saying i made a change in that cell

do i just leave the (knocking) part alone?

and last question.. after i make these changes, save the changes and load it onto my ap and flash it on the car right?

then do the 3rd gear data log to see if there's change in the actual numbers, correct?

sorry, it's my first time playing with ATR. won't ask the same questions again!

[xsilent13x]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 Yeah, but then you say you have upped the wgdc and are seeing 20.8 psi of boost. yes, from 3k up

Christian@Cobb said its normal to see +/-1.5psi from your targets. My problem isn't boost anymore it's my timing.


Edit* -Oh it was 20.1 not 20.8 my bad

[wolly6973]

Originally Posted by xsilent13x Christian@Cobb said its normal to see +/-1.5psi from your targets. My problem isn't boost anymore it's my timing. Edit* -Oh it was 20.1 not 20.8 my bad

Yes, I know what Christian has said. But, it would be helpful if you could show us the log with the higher boost on it...
That is what I am trying to say!!!

Originally Posted by JS + MS3 when I put 11.9 in the cell, the font goes red. what did I do here im assuming it's just saying i made a change in that cell do i just leave the (knocking) part alone? and last question.. after i make these changes, save the changes and load it onto my ap and flash it on the car right? then do the 3rd gear data log to see if there's change in the actual numbers, correct? sorry, it's my first time playing with ATR. won't ask the same questions again!

Red/yellow mean you changed the value.
Don't mess with the knock tables.

Make changes to map, save, flash to car, drive around a little, log.

[xsilent13x]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 Yes, I know what Christian has said. But, it would be helpful if you could show us the log with the higher boost on it... That is what I am trying to say!!! Red/yellow mean you changed the value. Don't mess with the knock tables. Make changes to map, save, flash to car, drive around a little, log.

Ok.....look at post #41 and see the attached file called "Stage2 (stg1 wgdc + plugs) 4th"? It's towards the bottom of the post...it says you've downloaded it before so idk lol. I think we just confused the hell out of eachother. =P

[JS + MS3]

Thank you very much. Will do!

[wolly6973]

Originally Posted by xsilent13x Ok.....look at post #41 and see the attached file called "Stage2 (stg1 wgdc + plugs) 4th"? It's towards the bottom of the post...it says you've downloaded it before so idk lol. I think we just confused the hell out of eachother. =P

lol
It was just fail on my part, did not scroll down enough.
I just assumed the first part was the only WOT part of the log and didn't look at the rest.
You are hitting 300 g/s, which is pretty amazing considering your mods.

That 20 psi spike is kinda nasty though, it is better to have boost ramp up gradually and then hit the target, rather than having it go crazy, back off, then have to build it again.
Try lowering the wgdc at 3500 & 4000 rpm.

After you get that spike tuned out, you should definitely work on timing!

[xsilent13x]

Thanks for the input wolly. I think the main reason for that spike is because some one cut me off in the middle of of the WOT thats why you see me back off. I'll try another one this morning since its really nice out.

[rfinkle2]

Just wanted to shoot this out there for guys still looking for internals.

Information provided by @bcmountainspeed to me in a pm:

"CTS turbo which is a company in Langley B.C. Canada. The phone number for them is a Washington St. # because most of their business is from the States"

He (bcmountain) told me when he bought his set a short while ago, the distributor had about 30 sets in stock.

[bcmountainspeed]

no man I think you misread what I said there. or I mistyped it what I meant to say was he is waiting on an order of 100 and he had 30 that were spoken for when they come in. Hope this clears it up.

The order should be in by the end of the month

[indianaryan]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 Yeah, but then you say you have upped the wgdc and are seeing 20.8 psi of boost. yes, from 3k up

Do you mean 2.5k up? Otherwise the value for 2.5k is going to be less than the values from 3k up.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by bcmountainspeed no man I think you misread what I said there. or I mistyped it what I meant to say was he is waiting on an order of 100 and he had 30 that were spoken for when they come in. Hope this clears it up. The order should be in by the end of the month

YES. I totally misunderstood. My apologies. Thanks for the info.

[Speed3eak]

Originally Posted by xsilent13x Thanks for the input wolly. I think the main reason for that spike is because some one cut me off in the middle of of the WOT thats why you see me back off. I'll try another one this morning since its really nice out.

You bastard

Your log looks incredible. Just a SRI, TIP, and TP and you're pulling 300 g/s.

Are you spraying meth? Is that what you meant by 50/50?

When I can get a new wga I should be able to hold boost (only seeing 15.5 psi at redline now, 100% wgdc), and then perhaps my g/s numbers will get better.

Probably gonna have to mess with my MAF cal to hit my OL/WOT targets though b/c I'll be spraying a d05 nozzle instead of a d03.

Anyway, this is good reading. Those of you who are seeing really rich fueling, what gear are you logging in? Right after I installed my fuel pump, I saw AFRs as low as the high 8's in 1st. Held pressure great though.

Unfortunately, my wga can't keep my IWG closed now for whatever reason, so I'll be getting an updated one here soon. Coupled with my EBCS I should finally be able to hit 19-20 psi at WOT now, maybe more once I get the Test Pipe in. Seeing your logs makes me optimistic about that lol.

I'm hoping for a solid 265 whp with SRI, TP/RP, TMIC, and Meth @ 19-20 psi and 15* spark advance at redline. We'll see though - if my wga has already taken a shit idk if I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed for the rest of the engine.

[Bucker]

50/50 VTA with his BOV.

[xsilent13x]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak You bastard Your log looks incredible. Just a SRI, TIP, and TP and you're pulling 300 g/s. Are you spraying meth? Is that what you meant by 50/50? When I can get a new wga I should be able to hold boost (only seeing 15.5 psi at redline now, 100% wgdc), and then perhaps my g/s numbers will get better. Probably gonna have to mess with my MAF cal to hit my OL/WOT targets though b/c I'll be spraying a d05 nozzle instead of a d03. Anyway, this is good reading. Those of you who are seeing really rich fueling, what gear are you logging in? Right after I installed my fuel pump, I saw AFRs as low as the high 8's in 1st. Held pressure great though. Unfortunately, my wga can't keep my IWG closed now for whatever reason, so I'll be getting an updated one here soon. Coupled with my EBCS I should finally be able to hit 19-20 psi at WOT now, maybe more once I get the Test Pipe in. Seeing your logs makes me optimistic about that lol. I'm hoping for a solid 265 whp with SRI, TP/RP, TMIC, and Meth @ 19-20 psi and 15* spark advance at redline. We'll see though - if my wga has already taken a shit idk if I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed for the rest of the engine.

Thanks! I calibrated my MAF and fuel and modified my boost and wgdc and thats what I got. I think I got a high of 312g/s once on a stage 2 log before. Now I'm looking into my timing which looks conservative maxing out at 7* @ 6k I've heard that ~9-16* is optimal on our platform. I'm going to be raising it 0.5-1* increments keeping an eye on knock this sunday to see what happens. Oh and just a random question....the idle speed tables on the ATR don't seem to work for me? I tried to put them lower since I've gotten complaints from neighbors to my landlord saying I rev the engine at 4am in the mornings (ECU idles at 1250rpms at cold starts).

[Speed3eak]

I dunno what to tell you about the idle tables - I raised my idle to 900 rpm when my coolant is up to temp and it still idles at 600-750.

And on my stage 1 map I see 11.5* timing max - and I'm not getting any KR I would call worrisome (<1* KR in my WOT logs).

idk if you've read dano's boost tuning thread (I think that's where it is), but keep in mind that calc load decreases as the RPMs climb - most people on the stage 1 map see loads of 1.6 or 1.7 @ redline, so keep that in mind when you're increasing timing.

I can't wait to re-install my TP, but I doubt I'll see an additional 40 g/s from it, so I suspect you have a "factory freak" - congrats/you suck.

As for getting complaints for starting your car in the morning, have you tried starting in gear/reverse with the clutch depressed? If you're quick with your clutch, I feel like you can keep the revs low enough that it won't bother anybody that much. I dunno for sure though, I still have my resonator so the noise my car makes isn't that bad even with the TP installed.

[xsilent13x]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak I dunno what to tell you about the idle tables - I raised my idle to 900 rpm when my coolant is up to temp and it still idles at 600-750. And on my stage 1 map I see 11.5* timing max - and I'm not getting any KR I would call worrisome (<1* KR in my WOT logs). idk if you've read dano's boost tuning thread (I think that's where it is), but keep in mind that calc load decreases as the RPMs climb - most people on the stage 1 map see loads of 1.6 or 1.7 @ redline, so keep that in mind when you're increasing timing. I can't wait to re-install my TP, but I doubt I'll see an additional 40 g/s from it, so I suspect you have a "factory freak" - congrats/you suck. As for getting complaints for starting your car in the morning, have you tried starting in gear/reverse with the clutch depressed? If you're quick with your clutch, I feel like you can keep the revs low enough that it won't bother anybody that much. I dunno for sure though, I still have my resonator so the noise my car makes isn't that bad even with the TP installed.

Yea because Stage 1 only reaches 1.6-1.7 load your advance will be higher since the ECU is trying to make more out of that load cap (1.63 load @ 6000 on Stage 1 is 11.5* adv as opposed to my 1.98 load @ 6000 on Stage 2 with 6* adv). Load gets as high as 2.39 on my log....looking at my stage 1 logs from 3 months ago I don't break 1.8.

[rfinkle2]

I think it is important to note that everyone might consider raising their knock limit tables
(i.e. knock retard active max - rpm max) to whatever rpm's they are taking their car to on their logs.

[xsilent13x]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I think it is important to note that everyone might consider raising their knock limit tables (i.e. knock retard active max - rpm max) to whatever rpm's they are taking their car to on their logs.

Yea I put mine at 7k just in case. Is it me or does Cobb take forever answering emails. I asked them about the Idle Speed tables.....they don't work.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by xsilent13x Yea I put mine at 7k just in case. Is it me or does Cobb take forever answering emails. I asked them about the Idle Speed tables.....they don't work.

No comment. LOL.

FWIW, I don't think that the guys you e-mailed work on the weekends.

You can PM Braden or Christian through here if you don't hear from them early this week.

FWIW, The LTFT breakpoints aren't correct in ATR either (I don't think it matters).

They are listed as 5.7, 18, 200, 200, 200.

[xsilent13x]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 No comment. LOL. FWIW, I don't think that the guys you e-mailed work on the weekends. You can PM Braden or Christian through here if you don't hear from them early this week. FWIW, The LTFT breakpoints aren't correct in ATR either (I don't think it matters). They are listed as 5.7, 18, 200, 200, 200.

Actually emailed them last thursday fyi....

[Nataphen]

-The idle controls and the ECT fan controls don't work
-ECT fan temps always show celcius, even when it's supposed to be farenheit
-4th gear in ATR is listed as 1.02 and Mazda lists it at 1.03

There may be a couple of other things too, but that's what I can remember off the top of my head. Cobb will get them all straight, I'm sure. They're hard at work on getting the AP for 2011 up and running.

Also, stage 2 will give you muuuch more power than stage 1. Look on Cobb's gen 1 AP section for the projected gains on s1 vs. s2.

[xsilent13x]

Originally Posted by Nataphen -The idle controls and the ECT fan controls don't work -ECT fan temps always show celcius, even when it's supposed to be farenheit -4th gear in ATR is listed as 1.02 and Mazda lists it at 1.03 There may be a couple of other things too, but that's what I can remember off the top of my head. Cobb will get them all straight, I'm sure. They're hard at work on getting the AP for 2011 up and running. Also, stage 2 will give you muuuch more power than stage 1. Look on Cobb's gen 1 AP section for the projected gains on s1 vs. s2.

When will this happen? lol

[Nataphen]

Elaborate, please, I don't really understand what you're asking there. Sometimes I'm a little slow, LOL.

I think that it's safe to say that gen 2s have a little better airflow than gen 1s for some reason. There have been quite a few gen 2s breaking 300 g/s by a fair amount. I'm starting to wonder if we have a better head, valvetrain, cams, IM, or something like that. Sooo, about that tearing the motors apart side by side thing...

[JS + MS3]

Did 3rd gear pull data logging last night. the only thing that i changed on ATR is AFR to 11.8 from 3k to 7k. That's it.

How does it look?

The car surely doesn't feeel as strong as the stage1+ map that I had on.. Well, I mean it's supposed to be like this to be "safe" right?

What should I change now!?

[Nataphen]

Try slowly raising boost in your 3-6k range. You will have to raise your WGDC to hold the new higher boost levels. You should be able to raise them quite a bit in 5k-6k without fuel pressure problems.

[JS + MS3]

Got it. Thank you very much.

I'll update once I get another log!

[rfinkle2]

I was experimenting with WGDC tables over the weekend, and found that what @wolly6973 and @Speed3eak say they've read about "anticipating" boost targets to be dead on.

See @Ziggo 's boost tuning thread (link in first post) to see the drastic difference in his WGDC vs. the OTS maps.

EDIT: a good deal of us including myself, are new to boost tuning etc., so an excellent thing to keep in mind is the difference in your setup vs. , say Dano.

Not that all of Dano's thread is not pretty much essential reading, but remember that he running a big turbo, a 3 port solenoid and a manual boost controller, all of which will make his tables much different than any stock bcs setup.

[rfinkle2]

---Sorry to double post, but has anyone entered the correct ltft breakpoints into atr?

i.e. they are currently 5.7 , 18 , 200 , 200 , 200..

vs. the 5 we've been relying on.

5.7, 18, 30 , 77 , full sensor range.

---In response to whether or not any of the load tables are still affecting boost tuning targets, @wolly6973 asked this question on the Cobbtuning.com forums...

italics below from Cobbtuning.com...

Christian.
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AccessECU Lead Tuner & Trainer Join Date Jun 2003
Posts 66,665
Originally Posted by wolly6973
So is the only way to limit power by gear via APP then?
Correct, the APP can be used to limit boost in various gears. When the pressure-based boost control option is chosen, the ECU simply uses the values in the Boost Targets table in conjunction with the WG Duty and Boost Dynamics table to operate the boost control system in a close-loop fashion. The Req. Load X Gear tables can also be used to refine the boost control characteristics.
Christian.

[indianaryan]

I'm starting to see knock consistently at WOT, and fairly often just with casual driving. Most of the time it's under 2, but a couple of times it has gone as high as 3.3, though that was just for a split second. It's been warmer here lately, so that might be contributing along with the fact that I've increased AFR to about 11.6. I guess I probably need to go a step colder on the spark plugs too? I'm still stock on those. I was going to wait on those until the Autotech internals came in so I could knock them both out at once. Could I decrease the timing in the meantime, or is it not a big deal since it's usually below 2?

@rfinkle2 you mentioned that your calculated load for 2nd gear was pretty far off. Mine is too. Did you figure out how to address that? I'm wondering if that's what is throwing my AFR way off in 2nd.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by indianaryan I'm starting to see knock consistently at WOT, and fairly often just with casual driving. Most of the time it's under 2, but a couple of times it has gone as high as 3.3, though that was just for a split second. It's been warmer here lately, so that might be contributing along with the fact that I've increased AFR to about 11.6. I guess I probably need to go a step colder on the spark plugs too? I'm still stock on those. I was going to wait on those until the Autotech internals came in so I could knock them both out at once. Could I decrease the timing in the meantime, or is it not a big deal since it's usually below 2? @rfinkle2 you mentioned that your calculated load for 2nd gear was pretty far off. Mine is too. Did you figure out how to address that? I'm wondering if that's what is throwing my AFR way off in 2nd.

It is my understanding when you are driving mildly (closed loop), you are going to get that kr. The ecu continously pushes the envelope (as I understand it) and retards timing when kr is present to get the best fuel economy. See this thread when you have the chance.
Part throttle knock question???

@ WOT, I would see what the Denso's do for you. They are an easy install, as long as you have a plug wrench.

I'm convinced that what @Nataphen said is true, that the ecu also uses some load tables in conjuction with the boost targets.

Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to do much adjusting of the tables... but found some info about it on the Cobbforums.
NOTE: SAMUELS's POSTS...here
WGDC (BCS) 100%...Q's on hardware longevity and tuning solutions

I'm @ the point now (adjusting wgdc values) where I'm within .5 lb of boost targets, and the calculated load is now above that in throttle - req. load x gear tables. It seems @ least to me, that the car is adding fuel and knocking small increments @ that point. (when my calc load is slightly above that in atr.)

In summary: lol
SOOO. I feel that the pump internals combined with the ITV's will likely solve your WOT knock problem and unfortunately haven't had enough time to experiment with the load tables to give you sound advice.

(Wolly has the within .05 of load question out there on the Cobbforums btw.)

[PapaSmurf]

Here is my latest log running Amazon's stage 2 map +fmic, with some extra timing.

Why am I getting Less MAF G's than before i had my FMIC?

And also my WGDC seems to be pegged at the end.