Gen 2 Cobb ATR discussion

[indianaryan]

Warmer ambient air temps will make it harder to reach the same g/s as you can when it's colder. Although the FMIC should help that a lot. Do you have a log from before the FMIC that we can look at? I'm wondering what the BAT's were compared to when this log was taken.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by indianaryan Warmer ambient air temps will make it harder to reach the same g/s as you can when it's colder. Although the FMIC should help that a lot. Do you have a log from before the FMIC that we can look at? I'm wondering what the BAT's were compared to when this log was taken.

All of the above being 100% true, you will get some pressure drop from adding the front mount.

I think we are all going to have to look into what @Speed3eak has mentioned, upgrading our wastegate actuators, or if adjustable, making changes to the pretension.

italics fancy colors from the atr helpfile:

From what we have seen, the factory MS3 wastegate actuator is pretensioned to 7-9psi. When we
have run the vehicle on 0% WGDC the turbo produces around 7-10psiG




Option 2 = Wastegate Actuator Pre-Tensioning

, you can change the amount of pre-tension on your WG actuator.

- Creating greater pre-tension will allow the system to generate greater boost pressures with the same or less WGDC, the trade-off is that the greater pretension

can potentially create a phenomenon known as &#8220boost creep&#8221 by not allowing enough exhaust gas energy to by-pass the turbine housing. On rare

occasions, this boost creep condition may be tuned out by greatly lowering WGDC or setting the WGDC to zero at higher RPM.

- A larger restrictor pill will allow the system to use more WGDC to achieve boost, which makes the conditions safer when you lose a vacuum line and the

turbo goes into an overrun condition

[PapaSmurf]

ambient temp on the one with my fmic was 80 degrees

im pretty sure the ambient temp was around 55-60 degrees, cause i remember it being pretty chilly before i left to go to mississippi for a week.

[Nataphen]

Well, trusting Amazon with your tune was your first mistake. Not so much that he doesn't know what he's doing, he just has spite and cynicism flowing through his veins instead of blood.

I'm on tapacrap, so I can't view the logs right now.

[atvfreek]

Both maf calibrations may be slightly different in higher RPMS. Open your maf scale and check around 4.5v. Below the voltage scale is the g/s scale and see if they are the same. You may be reading the same maf voltage yet it indicates a different g/s.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Nataphen I'm on tapacrap, so I can't view the logs right now.

Overall, things look fine. He is likely targeting 11.8 @ wot with 19.5 psi targets.

Originally Posted by MicaBlueMS3 Here is my latest log running Amazon's stage 2 map +fmic, with some extra timing. Why am I getting Less MAF G's than before i had my FMIC? And also my WGDC seems to be pegged at the end.

You may see that pegged wgdc occasionally if you want to maintain high boost levels higher in the rev band. You are fighting the exhaust gas backpressure high in the rpm band.

That can be tuned down a bit if you don't like the 100% wgdc.

It is up to you and Amazon, but you may ask him if he thinks it is safe to run in excess of 12.0 afr @ 18 psi @ around 3,200 rpms. That is really a matter of opinion, and I've seen guys run 12.0 afr's on this motor w/out issue.

[rfinkle2]

May I please add a good ATR link to the thread?

Thanks to @Fobio :

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...rt-logs-53156/

Also: interesting notes on wastegate actuator spring pressure from Christian in the helpfile:

NOTE: As a rule of thumb, you can generally only create turbo boost pressure which is twice your mechanical wastegate spring pressure through electronic
wastegate manipulation. In other words, if you have a 7psi wastegate spring (in your external wastegate) or you have internal wastegate that is pre-tensioned to
7psi then you should only be able to create around ~14psi of peak boost pressure by locking down your EBCS @ 100% WGDC. Of course, your actual results
may vary based on how well you have located your external wastegate, or how well the internal wastegate is ported, what size of restrictor pill you are using,
what your turbine A/R is, etc.

NOTE: Cobb has been measuring Mazdaspeed factory spring pressure anywhere from 7-9 psi.

[Speed3eak]

Alright, so as long as you guys are talking about wastegate actuators, I'd thought I'd chime in real quick.

My wastegate actuator seems to either have really low spring pressure or not enough pre-load right now (thanks finkle for that link) - My wgdc is maxed for the later part of my logs and I'm only hitting 15.5 psi at redline (latest log showed that, I'll load it up later today when I can get to my personal computer). This is with 100+ IATs and BATs though, so hopefully when I get my CS TMIC later this month those will come down some.

I'm considering getting a forge WGA from street unit, but I'll have to look at the stocker and see if it's adjustable first. If I'm not mistaken, the PTP WGA is a re-worked stock unit and it doesn't appear to be adjustable, so I'm not going to keep my fingers crossed. I also thought about getting a PTP unit, but the spring pressure is too high for what I'm planning.

About spring pressure - I want low spring pressure because the failsafe I'm putting in my meth system is going to cut my BCS out and force the car to run straight spring pressure. I'll go into more detail once I get everything set up (waiting on the CS TMIC before everything goes on), but the way I'm planning everything, low spring pressure is key to making sure the failsafes work and I have enough RPMs to use the benefits of meth effectively for powah.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak Alright, so as long as you guys are talking about wastegate actuators, I'd thought I'd chime in real quick. My wastegate actuator seems to either have really low spring pressure or not enough pre-load right now (thanks finkle for that link) - My wgdc is maxed for the later part of my logs and I'm only hitting 15.5 psi at redline (latest log showed that, I'll load it up later today when I can get to my personal computer). This is with 100+ IATs and BATs though, so hopefully when I get my CS TMIC later this month those will come down some. I'm considering getting a forge WGA from street unit, but I'll have to look at the stocker and see if it's adjustable first. If I'm not mistaken, the PTP WGA is a re-worked stock unit and it doesn't appear to be adjustable, so I'm not going to keep my fingers crossed. I also thought about getting a PTP unit, but the spring pressure is too high for what I'm planning. About spring pressure - I want low spring pressure because the failsafe I'm putting in my meth system is going to cut my BCS out and force the car to run straight spring pressure. I'll go into more detail once I get everything set up (waiting on the CS TMIC before everything goes on), but the way I'm planning everything, low spring pressure is key to making sure the failsafes work and I have enough RPMs to use the benefits of meth effectively for powah.

You are welcome sir.

I just verified that the stocker is definitely not adjustable.

IIRC, most adjustables can run around 14psi spring pressure.

related thread here:

WGDC pegged at 99% past 5k.

[Ziggo]

That rule of thumb is kinda awkward. It really comes down to the turbo and how it backs up the exhaust manifold.

Imagine the WG plate as a tug of war except the rope is the actuator rod. On one side you have the exhaust manifold pressure and the boost signal pulling on the rod trying to open the WG. On the other side you have the WG spring trying to hold it closed. The EBCS allows the boost signal to be adjusted, but because it's a bleed type system it's never truly zero. Even if it is zero like an interrupt EBCS, the exhaust manifold pressure can get high enough to overpower the WG spring and pull open the WG. So a small turbine/housing will tend to build up high exhaust pressure and need a stronger spring to stay closed while a larger turbo/housing will operate at lower exhaust manifold pressures and not require as stiff of a spring. One option is to upgrade to an interrupt style EBCS that can truly zero out the boost signal. Another fancy option is a dual port WG that allows you to apply the "interrupted" boost signal to the other side, helping the spring keep the WG closed instead of just helping it open.

[PapaSmurf]

Can anyone enlighten me on how to change my wgdc if I'm not hitting boost targets in upper rpms?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by MicaBlueMS3 Can anyone enlighten me on how to change my wgdc if I'm not hitting boost targets in upper rpms?

I've asked @Fobio to come over to the thread and post his wastegate duty cycle map using the Grimmspeed 3 port bcs and a ptp wastegate actuator.

[Fobio]

This is my last post in the my WGA/EBCS thread from Feb...as weather continues to warm, I continue to make minor changes to my WGDC...so the WGDC table is slightly different from my current:

Originally Posted by Fobio It has been too cold to log for awhile, so eventho it was -8*C tonight, I had to go get some... The last table from the post above gave my a bit of spikes into the 21.x @ 4000rpm...so I played with it a bit...and here's the table: and here are the results...as close to what I'd like on the street as possible...there's still room for more tweaks...but I'm happy for now. the is all under boost based tuning with 1.08. EDIT. I swear I must've forgotten what this thread is all about...lol...

[rfinkle2]

Thanks @Fobio. It seems that gen2 ots tunes have been plagued with wgdc's pegged @ 100%, and from your chart, @ least we can be comforted that there exists a solution.

Extrapolating from @Dano2010 ' s 2x+10 theory on wgdc values vs logged wgdc, I'd say that 26.5(2)+10= 63 is a huge improvement. lol

[PapaSmurf]

im confused... lol

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by MicaBlueMS3 im confused... lol

@MicaBlueMS3...

You could do one of two things.

1) Tell @Amazon that you are worried about a pegged WGDC, and ask him to help you with your WGDC tables.

2) You could lower your wastegate duty cycles in small increments in the portion of the rev band you are uncomfortable with (at the expense of losing some psi) in ATR.
----you may also want to lower the boost target table in that same rpm range that corresponds with the pegged wgdc table by .5 pound while decreasing the above WGDC by small incerements.




FWIW, it seems that people are comfortable with 90-95% wastegate duty cycle for solenoid longevity sake.

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 @MicaBlueMS3... You could do one of two things. 1) Tell Amazon that you are worried about a pegged WGDC, and ask him to help you with your WGDC tables. 2) You could lower your wastegate duty cycles in small increments in the portion of the rev band you are uncomfortable with (at the expense of losing some psi) in ATR. ----you may also want to lower the boost target table in that same rpm range that corresponds with the pegged wgdc table by .5 pound while decreasing the above WGDC by small incerements. FWIW, it seems that people are comfortable with 90-95% wastegate duty cycle for solenoid longevity sake.

Ill try this tomorrow and see what i can work with.

[Nataphen]

The solenoid is the least of my worries. I don't care what is said or done on OTS maps, you won't convince me that 95-100% WGDC is safe for your turbo when you hit it and sustain it constantly at WOT. Whether our stock BCS is at fault or not, it doesn't change the fact that your turbo has 100% of the hot exhaust blowing through it.

If I constantly see over 90% sustained, I back off. You guys have to remember, this little turbo will only do so much. It is not efficient even at stock boost in high RPMs. After about 5k-5500RPM, unless you want to risk blowing the k04, you may as well be ready to back the boost off to 15-16.5psi. I'm going to switch to the Grimmspeed EBCS and see if that helps, but at 6k+ RPM, I seriously doubt it.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Nataphen The solenoid is the least of my worries. I don't care what is said or done on OTS maps, you won't convince me that 95-100% WGDC is safe for your turbo when you hit it and sustain it constantly at WOT. Whether our stock BCS is at fault or not, it doesn't change the fact that your turbo has 100% of the hot exhaust blowing through it. If I constantly see over 90% sustained, I back off. You guys have to remember, this little turbo will only do so much. It is not efficient even at stock boost in high RPMs. After about 5k-5500RPM, unless you want to risk blowing the k04, you may as well be ready to back the boost off to 15-16psi.

Without a doubt, there is an efficiency range for the K04. I hope you don't see my above post as a challenge to your bcs precautions.

If we were to follow some of the strictest recommendations, we would never be in boost, either because the rods would bend under low rpm situations, or because the K04 is no good high in the rev band.

I do think that the K04 is being restricted by some of the other hardware on the car.

I see a good many people making great power with high mileage ms3's and ms6's on the stock turbo if the tune is sound.

[Nataphen]

Not at all, man. I'm just saying that, even fully bolted, people have trouble holding boost above 16psi to redline, even at 100% WGDC. If you run your car hard on the street or track in that way, you have to be willing to accept the risks that those things present. When you blow a turbo, I will tell you, "that sucks, but I told you so."

"You" being generalized, not you, finkle. I agree that you have to enjoy your car, but I say do it intelligently. Dropping that 1psi from 6k+ to keep my turbo happy isn't going to make me think the car sucks. Power falls off past 6k anyway, so running it up in 4th through the 1/4 or doing a log is really the only time you shouldn't shift at about 5700.

[Ziggo]

I hate my K04 and am looking for an excuse to upgrade. 16psi to redline FTW!

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Ziggo I hate my K04 and am looking for an excuse to upgrade. 16psi to redline FTW!

LOL. The K04 is hated. I'm surprised @ the # of complete kits for the MS3. e.g. BNR etc.

[Fobio]

I guess to a certain extent, the weaksauce of the OEM WGA in holding boost may be a form of fail-safe, along with the stock EBCS. Also, my boost based 20psi map doesn't yield 10% more power than my 18psi...which speaks to the efficiency limit of the stock K04.

[rfinkle2]

Total direction change, sorry... Has anyone actually entered the correct 5 maf breakpoints into atr?

[wolly6973]

So I was doing a 3rd gear pull on my normal merge to highway spot on the way to work today and I got KR up over 4. I let off after it didn't go away for 1 sec. Kinda freaked me out.
I did another log while merging onto another highway later, and everything looked normal.

Anyone care to take a stab at why I all of a sudden had this KR incident?

I haven't done any map revs for a while. I did have the air filter off and did a boost leak test today, and tightened a few of my hose clamps on the intake side. AFRs are not off, so I think the MAF cal is still good. Otherwise nothing has changed on the car.

Oh, I also have 2.5 gal of E85 in with this tank. I was trying to see if the small (<1) counts of KR I get consistently starting around 3200 rpm would go away.

[rfinkle2]

@wolly6973 , just observations that you've probably already made.

Your car is already pulling timing, without any reports of knock in the "KR" logs vs. the non KR logs, and your throttle position values are considerably different.

[wolly6973]

I noticed the timing, but I don't think you are looking at things right with the TPS values.
Here is the difference between the two...
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
-0.39
0
0
0
-0.39
-0.39
0
0
-0.39
-0.39
-0.39
-0.39
0
0

[rfinkle2]

I was looking @ the beginning of the entire knock event, and the steady stream of 76#'s in the no knock vs knock logs.

[wolly6973]

I don't see any 76's in either log...

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 I don't see any 76's in either log...

Corresponding with spool up in the no KR log? (around 2500 rpms and spool) It is where you begin to pull timing in the KR log.

[wolly6973]

See it now... Good eyes you have
I think that is just due to the different point of going WOT. 300 rpm earlier in the no KR log.
You see in both it goes to 76, backs down to 69, then gradually ramps up to 74-75.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 See it now... Good eyes you have I think that is just due to the different point of going WOT. 300 rpm earlier in the no KR log. You see in both it goes to 76, backs down to 69, then gradually ramps up to 74-75.

Look @ around the same point in the KR log... right after spool, your car pulls some timing (with no reports of KR), and then whole kr event begins.

I can't explain why, but just noticed some marked differences.

[wolly6973]

It also looks like it takes longer for the AFRs to drop initially, that is probably why the initial 1+ KR is there, but still don't see much different around that 4 KR event...
Initial AFR drop below...
No Knock - 14.26 15.88 12.94 10.73 11.02 11.32 11.61 11.76
Knock - 14.26 14.11 13.08 13.08 12.49 12.49 12.49 12.05 11.61

[wolly6973]

The only other significant difference between the two is the BAT, but the log with no KR has higher BATs, just doesn't make sense to me...

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Originally Posted by Nataphen The solenoid is the least of my worries. I don't care what is said or done on OTS maps, you won't convince me that 95-100% WGDC is safe for your turbo when you hit it and sustain it constantly at WOT. Whether our stock BCS is at fault or not, it doesn't change the fact that your turbo has 100% of the hot exhaust blowing through it. If I constantly see over 90% sustained, I back off. You guys have to remember, this little turbo will only do so much. It is not efficient even at stock boost in high RPMs. After about 5k-5500RPM, unless you want to risk blowing the k04, you may as well be ready to back the boost off to 15-16.5psi. I'm going to switch to the Grimmspeed EBCS and see if that helps, but at 6k+ RPM, I seriously doubt it.

Here are the results of a semi-tuned grimmspeed ebcs. This fucker is a bitch to tune! I have tried Christian's suggestion of very small BD parameters, but I can not hit target boost with them. This is the only way I can hit target boost (see BD). Also, either way, I have some pretty noticeable boost oscillation... to the point where I am convinced I am getting mad KR (which is pulling timing and adding fuel), but it turns out KR is at 0, but boost is vacillating. I need help! Once I get this tune dialed in, I can dyno and be done with this fucking ko4!

The only other problem that I am having is that I am getting some boost spikes up to 22psi! They are very quick, and disappear within 1 to 2 cells of data (and they never produce any KR).

Anyway, on the plus side, I can hit higher psi with less WGDC throughout the power band, and over 19psi past 6k without 100%!

My mods (that matter) are fmic/ram air, pump, catted dp, ap (with ots tune that has only had fuel, boost, wgdc and bd adjusted) and of course, the ebcs.

Oh, and FOBIO, think you could post up a couple logs and maps of your wgdc, bd and boost targets? It would REALLY help me.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 The only other significant difference between the two is the BAT, but the log with no KR has higher BATs, just doesn't make sense to me...

If you never get that shit, maybe it is just false KR, or the AP being stupid... Seriously. I was plagued by false KR forever!... Jwilkins88 got false kr of like 7 I think from his dip stick. so maybe (especially if that was the first WOT after your boost leak test) something was just rattling around in there.

[rfinkle2]

@Ckmazdaspeed3 , you might try posting your situation in this thread...

The grimmspeed is too fast to let the BD table have a great deal of authority, and their a few guys in the thread with lots of 3 port experience.

Also, Fobio has a ptp wastegate actuator with a different spring pressure, so just keep his mods in mind when looking @ his tables.



http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post804590

[wolly6973]

Ck, you should pm Dano, and look through his boost tuning thread, as I believe he has the 3 port also. He has his maps/logs posted throughout that thread.
http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...-thread-75524/

[Nataphen]

Great news about the grimmspeed, ck. I was hoping that it would help, but I just wasn't expecting it to, LOL. I'm all over 19psi to redline at less than 90% WGDC!

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Originally Posted by Nataphen Great news about the grimmspeed, ck. I was hoping that it would help, but I just wasn't expecting it to, LOL. I'm all over 19psi to redline at less than 90% WGDC!

Fucking awesome, right!

Could you post your wgdc and bd table? I want to see how your getting there. I'm guessing your boost is more steady than mine?