ATP 3071r swap how to , lenny gets BT fever too

[aaronc7]

ebc of course you use compressor outlet, fastest response.

but ebc is a closed loop system vs mbc which is not. ebc what really matters is what the MAP sensor in the IM sees and compares it to ECU boost table values. if its below target..it will increase WGDC, vise versa etc etc.

I'm mainly talking about mbc and boost source placement in previous posts, since i assumed it was obvious for ebc setup

[rodrigo]

ok.... well lets think then about mbc. i put the boost source at the compressor so i can get a quick signal and maintain w/e boost i set the dial to......

now i put the boost source at the IM... and i get a not as quick signal to maintain w/e boost is set the dial to..... only differences I see are

a) compressor boost source will react quicker
b) the dial on the mbc will have to be set lower in comparison when used in line with the IM boost source to reach the same boost levels (at the cylinders) than the compressor boost source set up
c) at higher rpm if the piping and FMIC restrictions progressively cause more psi to be lost then boost at the cylinders wouldnt be able to be a constant from full spool to redline.

thats how I see it..... and that to me means there is no advantage of running IM boost source on an EBC set up (since I assume the ECU calculates this pressure differential between the boost source and the map sensor)

Now on the MBC u have to compromise between quicker reaction to boost and tapered off boost ...if used with compressor bost source....or slower reaction of boost and a more constant psi curve to redline if used in conjunction to IM boost source....


about the sum of it all?



furthermore I am going to go on a limb and add this.....

if I were to run the MBC off the IM boost source I would see less creep....because as the RPM climbs towards redline the piping and fmic restrictions will lower the boost signal to which then the turbo will react by spinning faster and getting closer and closer to the "no creep" threshold (if boost where then measured at the compressor it would be a few psi higher) and this perhaps also explains why anthony doesnt have creep compared to me....since he doesnt run compressor signal and I do.

[bmylez]

The thing is, just because Mazda sources the compressor doesn't necessarily mean it's the best when you start doing aftermarket tuning.

All car manufacturers also use suck-through MAF as well. There are many many people who say blow-through MAF is better...and yet Mazda doesn't use it. Same thing goes with boost source. I've seen a lot of turbo builds where the IM is used as the boost source for every single device that needs it. These are cars that are running substantial power.

That's why I said "Both ways work" because neither method has shown to blow someone's motor or give a shitty power curve or anything. There are pros and cons to both, and tons of people have made both setups work.

[cpolly69]

Am I missing something here?
Factory setup reads boost from the map (inside the im) not the top of the compressor, right? I can only guess the ecu reads boost there and makes decisions about wgdc. So if the grimspeed is just a different vac control for the factory setup to work in conjunction with why not keep the place where it gets it signal the same?
I don't know enough about all the science going on here to make the best judgment, I just posed the question because I know many aftermarkets use im or just pre tb (close to the im).

[rodrigo]

^^^ maybe u should pull the turbo off the car so u understand what we are ACTUALLY discussing here....
like i said before, repeating shit we read from other members just for the sake of sounding smart is just idiotic..... not gripping at you or anyone in particular here.I am just after facts based on EXPERIENCE not on shit others post, or youtube links etc etc.....

and for clarification map sensor is inside the intake manifold and it is an electronic device....

boost source is the line that comes from the ko4 compressor that has a pill in it......


I believe I got my answer basically.

with EBC boost source from compressor is good for quicker response and the map working with the ebc can manipulate the boost curve.

with MBC you can either have quicker response and boost taper with compressor boost source... or slower response and flat boost curve all the way through.


thats it. thanks.

[Dano]

I agree and would think getting the boost signal from as close to the compressor as possible reduces any delay/pressure drop/ect you would get between it and the IM. it doesn't matter that the MAP is in the IM.

The EBC needs pure boost pressure generated by the turbo to adjust WGDC.

is there an "orangey" out there that can put this debate to bed with hard evidence not speculation?

[rodrigo]

i doubt anyone here has actual data to show this vs that..... and there is no shame in ALL of us learning this together.....all I was after is to have an understanding before accepting something that maybe it's important or maybe it isnt so important.

either way I asked an actual professional and I should have an answer soon

[cpolly69]

1. I've had the turbo off, and installed other turbos and manifolds on other cars, so I'm fully aware of the vacuum line routing from compressor housing to the solenoid and back out of the solenoid to the inlet pipe. Maybe you should stop basing people's knowledge off of sigs. You don't know shit about what I know because you don't talk to me.
I also said that in my EXPERIENCE I got better signal for control off of a cold pipe closer to the IM for a mbc then at the compressor housing. Driver311 said he agreed with this as well.
2. Yes the pressure comes from the compressor housing that is used to actuate the spring, but if you would actually read what I was saying you would see that the boost the ecu sees to make it's decision on the voltage going to the actuator comes from the intake manifold. The computer controls all. It's not a simple mechanical setup.
3. I posed the question in the first place and didn't copy someone Else's posts because I had installed aftermarket boost controllers of different brands on other turbo setups that looked for a boost source at the im.
4. Do not fear though, I will not attempt to contribute any information to any thread of yours ever again.

[rodrigo]

sniff sniff chris.

i am after facts not opinions, if that offends u ....too bad ese. you really arent in a position to tell me that the ECU solely bases its boost calculations off the map (unless all of a sudden you became a connoisseur in Mazda ecus) .... is it really that far fetched that the oem bc solenoid can perhaps send a signal/pulse (since its an actual electromagnetic device) to signal the ECU what the TURBO'S boost pressure is in relation to them map pressure and when seeing this differential and ONLY when seeing this differential the ECU decides what to make the wgdc be?

u dont know the answer to this, and neither do i..... but only ONE of us comes in here acting like they know for a fact....and if u do know for a fact wtf u doing trolling a forum?? go get an engineering job at honda .

u guys need to check your bullshit at the door when speaking to me, im not a 20 year old that is impressed with bench racing stories and popular mechanics quotes....... I value certain members opinions here (example sean) not because of sigs , but because of how accurate their advice turns out to be.

that however doesnt mean I am not going to argue with sean about this because until it makes sense to me I would be stupid to accept it blindly....and that is sadly something that the majority of car forum members do.... repeat shit like fucken parrots not because it makes sense but because someone else said it.

but whatever ,... since this is my thread i can be an asshole... I post on this thread so the next guy that does this set up not only has info available on how to successfully make it all work but has an actual explanation of why we went a certain route...and in the end that is what is most important.....to teach the next guy

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by cpolly69 Am I missing something here? Factory setup reads boost from the map (inside the im) not the top of the compressor, right? I can only guess the ecu reads boost there and makes decisions about wgdc. .

this is why I am dismissing what u are saying.... you are guessing first (which is fine dude....guess away, but I am not after guesses)

Originally Posted by cpolly69 . So if the grimspeed is just a different vac control for the factory setup to work in conjunction with why not keep the place where it gets it signal the same? .

and on this one u are telling me that i should leave the boost source in the stock location.....

[Dano]

I don’t think the EBC can sense boost and report back to the ECU but that isn’t necessary. You ask the ECU to hit XX.XX boost and it does that at the IM. The boost could actually be, and most certainly is, higher at the compressor outlet. The delta doesn’t matter to the ECU nor do we care.

We want XX.XX PSI in the IM and we get it.

We want the fastest readings we can get for the ECU to make its caculations. This is at the compressor outlet or very near.

this is my opinion with no hard facts....just makes common sense in my mind anyway.

[cpolly69]

if it worked in the manner you described the cpe standback wouldn't work by simply scaling the voltage going to it (solenoid)

i stand by the way i'm saying it works - and with that in mind i'm referring to the intake manifold (map sensor) as the boost source - not the compressor housing
i know it works this way because again - my experience with other aftermarket boost controllers tell me it works this way - i don't have to be a mazda engineer to know this...

[aaronc7]

solenoid just does what the ecu tells it do, based on what it is seeing from the MAP sensor and target boost tables configured by you or as defined by you. EBC can be tuned in open loop...such that you just have a table with rpm vs tps where you can set WGDC (solenoid duty cycle)..but that's pretty pointless and won't be consistent of course. In the normal closed loop scenario, MAP values in the IM are compared to the table values for a given rpm and TPS (or whatever), and sends a voltage to the solenoid in an effort to increase or decrease its duty cycle, for an end goal of reaching the target boost set by you in the tables.

edit: how quickly it reaches said target is affected by the mechanical system... IE having less vac lines it should be able to reach it's target quicker etc (and obvious stuff such as turbo size, etc), as well as how well the electronic side of the control system is set up as well.. PID tuning being a pretty common one used (megasquirt, SB)

[Dano]

the SB works by scaling the signal but that doesn't matter...don't the physics still apply?

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by cpolly69 if it worked in the manner you described the cpe standback wouldn't work by simply scaling the voltage going to it (solenoid) i stand by the way i'm saying it works - and with that in mind i'm referring to the intake manifold (map sensor) as the boost source - not the compressor housing i know it works this way because again - my experience with other aftermarket boost controllers tell me it works this way - i don't have to be a mazda engineer to know this...

but a post before u are telling me to leave the boost source at the compressor ...and now u say it works better at the map sensor.....

this is why when i speak I am specific about discussing mbc or ebc..... but you posts seem to go from one thing to the opposite every other post.

[aaronc7]

i think we just getting various terms mixed up and not being entirely clear and concise here as to what we talking about.... i think we're pretty much all on the same page.

mbc- see that thread from miata turbo i posted for pros/cons of all
ebc- keep it like oem/stock, that's fine/ideal.

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by aaronc7 solenoid just does what the ecu tells it do, based on what it is seeing from the MAP sensor and target boost tables configured by you or as defined by you. EBC can be tuned in open loop...such that you just have a table with rpm vs tps where you can set WGDC (solenoid duty cycle)..but that's pretty pointless and won't be consistent of course. In the normal closed loop scenario, MAP values in the IM are compared to the table values for a given rpm and TPS (or whatever), and sends a voltage to the solenoid in an effort to increase or decrease its duty cycle, for an end goal of reaching the target boost set by you in the tables. edit: how quickly it reaches said target is affected by the mechanical system... IE having less vac lines it should be able to reach it's target quicker etc (and obvious stuff such as turbo size, etc), as well as how well the electronic side of the control system is set up as well.. PID tuning being a pretty common one used (megasquirt, SB)

so if the ecu tells the solenoid what to do..... what is the boost source from compressor for on oem set up then?

[aaronc7]

what is the boost source from the compressor? what do you mean... what is the function of the vacuum line coming off the turbo that connects to the solenoid?

[rodrigo]

no..i mean if u tell me that the ecu controls the solenoid for the wg...."solenoid just does what the ecu tells it to do".... then what is the boost source line from compressor to it for?

it cant just get its commands from the ecu based on map and other shit only.... that pressure in that boost source line has to have relevance to the wgdc.... so therefore changing its location would change how the ecu interprets shit no?

careful cuz u are close to the point where i lose track and just go hit my head against the wall

[aaronc7]

the line coming off the turbo compressor is what actuates the wastegate. in a 0 WGDC scenario, the solenoid doesnt do shit, and the system is basically running WG spring pressure. throw the solenoid into the mix....it will vent pressure as needed that reaches the WGA, in order to reach boost goals...which are set in tables, which is all controlled by ecu of course. also you have a benefit of being able to reach boost target faster, as you're able to close the WG as much as possible until it reaches target etc etc.

If you change the source for this... IE from compressor outlet to right before the TB or something..yes it will change the dynamics of it some, but same idea still applies. If this was a particular ECU or setup where PID tuning was used...that would need to be retuned to account for the different dynamics of this new hardware setup.

i will agree that the solenoid is not the only factor that affects wastegate position, but WGDC is the solenoid's duty cycle which is purely a voltage that the ecu sends to it....I think sometimes on here we sometimes (I do it) think of WGDC has WG flapper position, when we are all using the same turbo, same wga, oem bc, it's all a fair comparison of course. 50 WGDC with a 5 psi boost signal coming from compressor outlet would be different than 50 WGDC with 20psi boost signal yes definitely in terms of wastegate position, how much it is bleeding off etc.

i dont even know why we are discussing this anymore lol

edit: as far as changing boost source and all this applies to ms3...from what i understand for the new ATR and boost control logic, the WGDC table is the initial WGDC value used before the closed loop control system kicks in, you would just need to test and check and edit those WGDC values as needed to get no overboost or sluggish response, etc I would imagine.. no major retune needed. but I dont see any reason to move the source, just going to add extra vacuum line

[rodrigo]

man i tried reading....i tried... but i threw up on my laptop and now i want to part out. hahahahahha

oh i have no idea why we are discussing this. the thing u guys have to remember is that I was content in running mbc and tuning afr and timing and fuck it...run it like a fucken musclecar...runs inconsistent but hauls ass.....

it was brought up to my attention that the community might be better served going the most likely way they would tune this set up which is through EBC using ATR to boost tune..... so I said fuck it...ill eat another 100 bucks and get the EBC. that doesnt mean sometime in the near future someone will want to run MBC and not ebc.... so why not show the different options this person has available if he does choose one over the other....

i aint no tuner and wont pretend to be....i am just in it to have a fucken fast car thats it. and im not sure if u guys are getting confused, I am running EBC to get a proper tune set by christian..... but in the meantime of me waiting for the revisions that still have 0 wgdc and super low boost i just switch to mbc (keep same map) just to have my fun while i wait for an email....

which one will i keep? most likely EBC since he is confident he can tune me successfully with the new ATR revisions.

[aaronc7]

EBC would be sweet. I'm sure I will give it a try on my miata at some point... problem is I will have to datalog and tune the PID parameters a lot...and there's no good testing grounds close to where I live, and that aspect of it makes it a pain.... in my mind right now, it seems easier to just adjust as needed with incabin mbc.

[rodrigo]

ha...rain started again so I had to sneak in 2 more logs b4 it got wet.

3rd gear from 3800 and 4th from 3500..... mbc on both

wot 3rd from 3800 (mbc).csv

wot 4th from 3500 (mbc).csv

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by lenny127 ha...rain started again so I had to sneak in 2 more logs b4 it got wet. 3rd gear from 3800 and 4th from 3500..... mbc on both Attachment 20705 Attachment 20706

Presuming your MAF is calibrated......
That MAF puts you right in the ballpark of 324-7hp according to the calculator here: Turbo and Supercharger Maps

[bmylez]

Oh, that's a cool little airflow/hp calculator. Thanks!

Lenny, needs m0ar power!

[rodrigo]

well if thats all i got looks like 25psi is my next move

boost curve seems pretty fucken flat.... nice. but its odd that i have 1 more psi in 3rd than 4th..... maybe cuz i gunned it higher in the rpm band? doubt it.... im just bored so fucking around with the car .....well not anymore, raining like a mofo now

this and rain is epic spin in 4 gears


edit**** looking at the logs again... 4th is pretty close to 21psi... ut flooring it at 3500 let it build slower i guess...

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by lenny127 well if thats all i got looks like 25psi is my next move

.
.

Originally Posted by lenny127 18psi and thats it.

Or words to that effect.......

[driver311]

I see alot of blah blah blah here guys. Heres is the simple facts. Seal you car up as tight as possible. Boost leak it to over 30psi. ONce you know your car is boost approved then you want to set your boost off of what boost goes into your motor. The intake manifold is the closest you can get to that. So tune your mbc or ebc off of the boost going into your motor not out of your compressor housing. Simple as that! Whats the fucking problem. YOu dont believe me try it for yourself and see. Its the best most accurate place.

[rodrigo]

well i assumed i could reach certain goals with 18psi... but if i cant...wtf do i care if i run 21psi or 18...long as i make the power i want its all gravy.

if u look at the logs my load is hovering around 2.00 from like 3800 to 6k rpm.... that is not only nice and flat but not very threatening to my rods no?

so once we get rolling with a lil leaner and a lil more timing i should land nicely right on top of that 350whp mark

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by lenny127 well i assumed i could reach certain goals with 18psi... but if i cant...wtf do i care if i run 21psi or 18...long as i make the power i want its all gravy.

True.

if u look at the logs my load is hovering around 2.00 from like 3800 to 6k rpm.... that is not only nice and flat but not very threatening to my rods no?

That is the only thing that is a little worrying, has your load cap been lifted?
The AFR's dont seem to show leaning, but the meth could be covering it up I suppose.....
What map are you running?
Is it posted somewhere?
Was it opened and resaved in the new ATR?
I'd like to see Throttle plate position instead of the Accel Pedal Position.
It just seems odd, it shouldnt be flat like that, so maybe there is something in the map that is limiting the load.........
not a bad thing really, being as you are not tuned yet.

so once we get rolling with a lil leaner and a lil more timing i should land nicely right on top of that 350whp mark

True again.


Big Turbo and Meth is definitely the way to go with this car.

[rodrigo]

this is actually a hybrid of

1) stage 2 fmic sri 93oct v105 map

2) load targets where originally upped to run 21-22psi on the ko4.. load cap was also upped to 3.0 back when....

3) chrsistian asked me to send him whatever map I was running on the BT to start zeroing shit out (wgdc)

4) he sent it back with 0 wgdc and load cap up to 5.0 or w/e and fuel pressure upped to 1800-1900 idk if anything else was done yet (doubt it)... this was just to start logging with ebc.. and i did , and i sent him the logs..... while i wait for the 2nd revision i switched back to mbc for weekend fun.


Now as far as leaning, nothing has been done so the taper u see of it getting richer is just how OTS calibration are... so nothing has changed there....and timing seems to chill at 11-12 max ..... i mean not like i really know shit, im just trying to learn this turbocharged business. I did ask dustin if that looked like load cap hitting cuz it sort of does..... he said it didnt look like it ( i mean the cap is removed so...) he had stated on previous logs that while my volumetric efficiency dropped due to rpms and my boost increased the 2 balanced the load out.... except now my boost seems pretty steady.. so no fucken clue man

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by lenny127 2) load targets where originally upped to run 21-22psi on the ko4.. load cap was also upped to 3.0 back when....

I'll bet the ECU is using the throttle plate or something to limit the load, it tries the WGDC first, but that doesnt help cos it doesnt have control of it, because of the MBC.
So then it resorts to using its next tool, the Throttle plate, to limit the load to requested load in the tables.....

Just my guess anyway.
Log Throttle plate and you will see...... could be I turn out to be proven wrong, I would be interested to know for sure what is going on.

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by FreeFlyFreak I'll bet the ECU is using the throttle plate or something to limit the load, it tries the WGDC first, but that doesnt help cos it doesnt have control of it, so then it resorts to using its next tool, the Throttle plate, to limit the load to requested load in the tables..... Just my guess anyway. Log Throttle plate and you will see...... could be I turn out to be proven wrong, I would be interested to know.

shit man...thats some tricky shit by the computer then... i will start logging throttle position then from now on rather than pedal position.... thanks , thats actually great advice.

fucken hey man, ill never get used to all the different shit that the ecu can fuck with my powah!!!!!!!!!! god damnit

so are these just redundancies for safety? shit it seems they really go out of their way these days too keep the shit tamed

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by lenny127 so are these just redundancies for safety? shit it seems they really go out of their way these days too keep the shit tamed

Exactly.
Throttle by wire.
Manufacturers dont want you blowing shit up under warranty, so they make it so the comp can intervene in multiple ways to limit your fun.
WGDC doesnt work....... OK lets use plan B or C or D (throttle close, fuel cut etc) to limit power instead.

It is definitely wise to leave that limit in there with the MBC until Xtian can get you a EBC tune sorted out.
For now best of both worlds, maxed K04 torque down low, but BT pull up top.

[rodrigo]

wow u gave me hope.... i was starting to think that my shit gonna get stuck on 330whp no matter how many times i turn that fucken mbc knob hahahahah

hopefully ill get a revision soon and he gives me some boost instead of 0 wgdc so i can go back to ebc....

interesting shit nonetheless, learn something new everyday.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by lenny127 wow u gave me hope.... i was starting to think that my shit gonna get stuck on 330whp no matter how many times i turn that fucken mbc knob hahahahah

What I would do for now, IF it stops raining is:
a) log with Throttle plate in there
b) Experiment and find the minimum boost you can run with that map and the MBC and still hit 200 load up top. There is no point running more boost than that, if the map/ecu is restricting load another way..........

[rodrigo]

roger that, but til tuesday looks like im swimmin' with the fishes (wow it actually itsnt correcting the spelling of fishes???? oh oh the verb haha)

will do that

[FreeFlyFreak]

EDIT:

Of course your creep may prevent that experiment from working exactly as I described it....... so let me rephrase......

Find the Minimum boost you can run before you see a drop below 200 load anywhere in the normal power band, it may show up lower than max rpm because of the creep you displayed earlier in low psi logs.

[rodrigo]

yeah ill log throttle position, .....but i very well might have one of those curves u know....flat tq and not very high hp.... i mean thats the story of my car lol

if the throttle stays at that 77% or w/e the max is I guess i got my answer lol

[FreeFlyFreak]

Actually looking at this log: http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...t-pull-4th.csv

That boost value I am talking about maybe not much lower, somewhere between 18.5psi and where you are now, so it might not be worth the hassle, of its not gonna reduce boost much.........

In that log above in 4th, 18.5 psi at 6500ish rpm was 163 load........ vs, 21ish psi at 6500 at 200 load in todays log

Anyway Im out... 10pm and I have to be up at 4.30am again FML.