ATP 3071r swap how to , lenny gets BT fever too

[Lex]

You have to understand that all engines knock at some point even at mild power levels. It doesn't take much to get your motor there if you're running this much power and heat through a 4 banger. The level of knock you are seeing is not something to worry about. The ECU responded and pulled a bit of timing. In the old days since you like that - that level of knock would have NEVER been detected by reading plugs or even by a good tuner. Today, the ECU takes care of you so you don't have to worry.

[rodrigo]

its not a coincidence that last set of logs were clean.... and this one with the 1 degree of timing added already in 4th gear (more load) the threshold ok detonation is found.

like i said, my car doesnt like timing, it never has... i have had it for almost 4 years lol.... i know what it can and cannot do. this is even when all we had was stage 1 running 17-18psi without meth i already couldnt run unless I had meth.

at this point i am just waiting for the do7 nozzle to be able to spray the same amount of meth and add a hair of water 5/2 mix should basically flow 5gph of meth + 2gph of water letting me have the same amount of meth as I do now on do5 and the added water to help detonation. then ill see if that with new colder plugs allow timing..... thats option 1

option 2 is just say fuck this bullshit and run the fucker at 22.5psi and leave timing alone.... i believe less timing and more boost is safer anyways.

we ll see (i got a few goodies coming in today and tomorrow...the urathane to inject the tranny mount, itv24 and the do7) gonna be a busy night when i get home from work

[Dano]

someone else jump in here if I am wrong but at 22.5 PSI you will need to set your saftey limits in the map way above that and lose any saftey measure that might be in place.

The OEM MAP is only good to ~22 IIRC...I have heard both 22 & 24 so IDK which is correct and anywhere near those areas it isn't accurate.

it seems that Boost Limit - Fuel cut does indeed work but if you go to 22.5 it will likely not or cut early LOL

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 someone else jump in here if I am wrong but at 22.5 PSI you will need to set your saftey limits in the map way above that and lose any saftey measure that might be in place. The OEM MAP is only good to ~22 IIRC...I have heard both 22 & 24 so IDK which is correct and anywhere near those areas it isn't accurate. it seems that Boost Limit - Fuel cut does indeed work but if you go to 22.5 it will likely not or cut early LOL

hahahahahahha

niggah throttle doesnt close until 22.5psi and my fuel cut is set to 23.5 psi ...since like a week ago LOL

only think that can cut me now is MAF and vta block!!!

[Dano]

Yes but is the MAP sensor correct?

Does it stop at 22 or 24


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rodrigo]

idk....doesnt matter... the mbc s only 2 drawbacks are a) same boost or so in every gear (which for me is fine cuz i like to fuck around anyways) b) at night when its 50 it boost max .75psi more than daytime say 75 degrees .....

so a) fuck it i dont care b) i want to run 22.5 psi max at night when coldest and no less than 21.75psi during daytime....

with that boost and timing as is I will be content ...if that means 330whp ,340whp, 350whp 360whp so be it. in the end this is a fucken daily driver and not a race car so having zero KR always is more beneficial for the enjoyment of the car long term... if that means the 5.0 beats me by a car oh fucken well.

at this point ill still try the 24s and the do7 but thats it.... if they dont let me have the timing to make the power with 21psi ...then im just gonna do it my way and be done.

cant do shit else, so to go back to your ? dano..... i dont plan on going over 22.5psi max ever... the 23.5 psi fuel cut was because i spiked once to 22.3psi and i cut... but the mbc now is stable as shit and never spike ...not even .3 lbs

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by lenny127 its not a coincidence that last set of logs were clean.... and this one with the 1 degree of timing added already in 4th gear (more load) the threshold ok detonation is found.

The reason I suggested going another 1° is that the tiny amount of KR you measured after the first +1° is potentially not significant at all and won't be worse after another °.

When you push the timing to where you are repeatedly getting ~2° KR then you know you have found the edge, and then should back up some.

IMHO you simply do not have sufficient data to determine if you are at that point yet and risk leaving considerable power on the table by not determining this.

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go The reason I suggested going another 1° is that the tiny amount of KR you measured after the first +1° is potentially not significant at all and won't be worse after another °. When you push the timing to where you are repeatedly getting ~2° KR then you know you have found the edge, and then should back up some. IMHO you simply do not have sufficient data to determine if you are at that point yet and risk leaving considerable power on the table by not determining this.

and i hear u on this..... but we each know our own cars based on what the first signs of KR are.....

also, what u guys dont take into account...is that my logs are within 15 min of the car started dead cold and outside 50 degree temps..... so what u see as 1.0KR turns easily into 2.3KR at 80 degrees outside....

i do what I do to maximize potential at the track and NOT have to switch maps day to day. (i run dead cold at the track and shut it down 2-2.5 hrs between runs)
u are right that it isnt enough information.... but I also monitor the DH when im not logging and if the so called "random" KR that occurs around the same rpm everytime keeps popping up then i know im close to my own limits.

hopefully tomorrow night I will be able to increase the amount of timing i can run with meth and plugs...but if not, it's ok i have my back up plan and if that doesnt work....well then i reached my safe limit of what I feel is a comfortable level considering all i know about my ride.

[djuosnteisn]

Also check that your knock sensor is tight against the block. If it's rattling or loose, it could make it overly sensitive.

I've even seen bad sensors that were way overly sensitive in the past, and only solution was a new sensor.

[rodrigo]

hahahaha....u always give me hope dustin... this reminds me of when I was in school and the counselor tells me.... "it might be a metabolism problem".......

in my head..i was just thinking...."nah niggah, im fat cuz i eat like a pig"

i wish it was that simple, but the fact remains with the itv22s and the stock timing i had no KR ...soon as we add 1 degree across i get 1 degree of retardation.... pretty fucken simple it seems to me.

i really should just let it be...but i want to squeeze as much mph as i can out of track saturday .... and ill be crushed if i come back with 110mph slips lol

[djuosnteisn]

Well, if you wanna be retarded... more power to you

[rodrigo]

it's not MY fault my mami and papi were first cousins!!!

[djuosnteisn]

One other bit of hope.... if your up for it....


Hit up the dyno. Start from your no KR timing... minus a couple degrees. Up the timing 1 degree... see if the torque increases. Up it again... see if the torque increases again... and so on. If you start getting KR before you reached the point where torque no longer increased, then it means your not near MBT, and your sensor is too sensitive.

New ATR has knock sensor adjustments in it (wonder who's silly idea that was )... and you can essentially "calibrate" your knock sensor while on the rollers.



I mean of course... if your up for it... or just be lazy, fat and retarded lol.

[rodrigo]

i got a pair of dykes with my knock sensors' names allover them. lol


reality for me dustin is that my car has been excessively knocking from a year into it.... maybe from beating on it too much , maybe from factory defect...who the fuck knows. in the OTS map era i would only be able to run the maps others did normally...but ONLY with meth.... without it my car didnt just flash KR... it fucken detonated to the point i can hear it at WOT 9ask philly to tell u the tunnel story....he will remember what he saw) ....... the car hasnt ran without meth for years and i would not run more than 15psi on this turbo without it..... meth in my case is a band-aid and i use it to be able to do what u guys do without it.... but i have to also accept that there is a price for all the abuse.

anyways...i dont wanna go around in circles...u guys know your stuff and I would love to push my car like u guys push yours and squeeze that power.... but then again u guys dont put on 80k miles in 4 years of constant abuse, so u have to admit that there are circumstances in compromised motors that you havent encountered yet.

but dont worry, when i pull my motor apart ill show u guys why my shit always ticks..... same story as the cracked turbo, same story as the fried clutch....

abuse, abuse, abuse

[djuosnteisn]

^ no arguments with that.

Your no dummy, and i trust your judgment entirely man. Audible deto is deto. And i didn't know the whole history. I thought what you were calling deto was simply a flashing KR in your face.... but not proven.

[rodrigo]

just pray for me and some decent traps saturday.....

lets do a pool

a) 108-110
b) 109-111
c) 110-112
d) 111-113
e) 112-114


I wanna say c) ...but everytime i go to this track i get pwned and i go home depressed, so im gona say b) oh please...please god, i have been good this year (5 days so far hahaha)

p.s. quickest time for me has been 13.6 at 105.xx highest mph was 107.5mph

[djuosnteisn]

w/out traction..
w/ traction.......


I think you've got the right ingredients for great traps man.

/me getting carried away with smilelys.

[rodrigo]

uhmmm.... well first 2 runs im gonna do 22psi or so on slicks.....and do maybe a 3700 launch with moderate tirespin in frist and second should grab.

i am not ready for 11psi slick setting and 4k rpm launches...havent practiced and i am not gonna make a fool of myself out there trying to learn..i can learn launching on the street with slicvks just the same.

so traps spinning out of first gear and maybe some of second also.....(basically what i do for the 107.5mph trap on street tires b4)

[rigor]

104 lol lenny stalls it with uber traction!

and smnf!






how did i do?

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by lenny127 just pray for me and some decent traps saturday..... lets do a pool a) 108-110 b) 109-111 c) 110-112 d) 111-113 e) 112-114

I'll go with..........

f) All of the above.

[rodrigo]

im actually pretty consistent of a driver and trap speeds.

im just slow

[Lex]

So what happens when you reach your goal? I can't see you becoming a good citizen like Darky.

[Dano]

...waiting for the Sunday night posts....

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by Lex So what happens when you reach your goal? I can't see you becoming a good citizen like Darky.

the plan?

to chill and just drop any more modifications. things are gonna change for me financially in a few months so spending tons of cash will be no more. I would like to have a speed3 that can trap 114 (at least 112) and then just enjoy the car ..... i have 80k miles and i intedn to put another 50k b4 i rebuild.... will it eat oil sure...will i have to de tune in 30k miles ..maybe.


thats the plan. now the idiot side of me....who knows... but for my sake i hope I chill as soon as i can get those traps . (im not like most of the cats here chasing numbers, i do what i do to my car for the sole purpose of beating the shit out of it daily.....and that s what im trying to wrap up here)

Originally Posted by Dano2010 ...waiting for the Sunday night posts....

in all seriousness..... i dont expect to do great. if things go according to how they usually go for me at fontana ill come back with 13.4s at 110mph and ill just say fuck it.... not meant to be.


i am seriously not shooting for 12s at all this time..i just want to see trap cuz thats what lets me know what cars I can fuck with and what cars I cant...... the track is my homework for th street.....u have no idea how much I race anyone and anything.... i love street racing from stoplights.

worst case scenario I run 13.4 @110

best case scenario maybe a flat 13 @ 112

[rodrigo]

alright, i did some testing on a few things and some logging etc etc.

after a while i started getting annoyed so i decided to swap the light spring out and the stiffer spring in for the mbc. light spring allows me basically to max at 21.5-22psi when its 45 degrees or so.... gives me about 20.5 to 21 when its 55 and daytime normal 70 degrees it runs around 20ish

now with the stiff spring I set the fucker to give me 22psi +/- .5 at 55-60 degrees so ill drop to about 21ish during daytime.(on the rarity that it goes to 45 degrees or colder ill click 1/4 turn off and ill be golden to not go beyond 22.5psi...shit might need an in cabin extension)

here are two logs from tonight....they are pretty dirty because although the meth drops temps super low the motor was super heat soaked from all the fucking around i did for an hour at WOT before swapping springs. If i did my testing in the manner I do it always (1o min warm up and slam!!!!!!!) the logs would have probably only shown a .35 and a .7 here and there.... my car always reacts this way after beating on it.(which is the main reason i cool off 2hrs or so between passes at the track)

anyways, i am going to do one change at a time....tomorrow I am going to only put in the itv24s and then ill log.... i dont wanna swap meth nozzles until after i log so i can see and understand the KR changes and the power changes from 22s to 24s.... i think now that i turned the boost to 22 the 24s might come in handy. we will see.

disclaimer***** if any noob reads this understand that what I do as far as fuck around with boost i do it in a very controlled manner...i have gauges and monitoring systems as well as alarms and cuts set a certain boost levels to catch shit if i dont while i scan all the data available. i set the mbc 1/4 at a time and i did WOT pulls for a second to establish a consistent boost level b4 i go out and stay WOT for 10 seconds.

with that said here are the two logs I captured.... if these had been done car being just warmed to operating temp they would look cleaner and stronger. (btw I am at the threshold of spinning 3rd ....lol)

stiff spring.csv

stiff spring2.csv



tomorrow im gonna do the urethane injection on the tranny mount (i hope it doesnt get loud but i do hope i get better power transfer to the ground) and the itv 24s..... ill go logging some after and if aaron has time we might just tweak a lil timing or so just to make sure logs are clean. (next week we can worry about other shit or not cuz i am just about finished with what i want)

[superskaterxes]

lenny your fucking logs are making me nauseous. your timing curve is crap and looks like its killing your torque. you need to man up and drop some race gas in for just a normal tune where you can hit 14-15 deg at redline. timming was THEE single thing holding this car back in ATR for so long and now that its out you need to find a way to make use of it.

[aaronc7]

let me know early today lenny if you want shit done, i have to be at work super early tomorrow. today is blah/normal day. I replied to your PM but let's figure out what nozzle/plugs you wanna run before we start tuning too much, tuning and ch anging hardware stuff at the same time makes me dizzy lol

[rodrigo]

nothing changes until i get the plugs in tonight.

if u get a chance just do 2 variations of v.6 a) with .5 degrees from 3500 to 5500 and 1.5 degrees from 5500 to 7k. b) 1 degree 3500 to 5500 and 2 from 5500 to 7k


that will tell me immediately if timing will take (which i will once again assume wont!!)

that wil be enough for the week aaron, gt5 bout to take ovah..fuck tuning!!!

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes lenny your fucking logs are making me nauseous. your timing curve is crap and looks like its killing your torque. you need to man up and drop some race gas in for just a normal tune where you can hit 14-15 deg at redline. timming was THEE single thing holding this car back in ATR for so long and now that its out you need to find a way to make use of it.

anthony, i know what u are saying but the fucker doesnt do well with timing.... i have better results with boost and no timing.

also u guys forget my logs arent maf calibrated.... let me explain something and then u tell me if u now dont see a diff story.

u see that i hit 11.76 when kr doesnt cause it to go richer right? that 11.76 is with meth...always. without it it will be about .6 leaner.... now i showed u guys logging with the eq ratio and the eq ratio vs actual afr is almost identical across....this means that if the meth wasnt spraying my EQ would be 11.76 and AFR 12.36 (which is what it does land on without meth..i pulled the fuse to verify) so AFR divided by EQ and u get 1.05102 which is basically what i would need to multiply maf tables by to get an EQ that matches the AFR right? are my calculations correct?

so now since u guys tell me that maf flow and load is directly proportional to MAF scaling then multiply every value of load and gm/s by 1.05102 and it looks now quite different no?

let me get the 24s in the car and ill log and u will see timing is no good for my car...benn like it for 4 years..not gonna change cuz the turbo grew.

ill post logs tonight

[Dano]

OT but I would almost be scared to see how my car would pull with slicks...I mean I neuter 1-2nd gears almost completely and 3rd only has 1 nut this time of year. Its not the fastest MS3 by a long shot but it would be fun to do it a few times.

In the summer, 80*+ I can run full power from 3 up w a lil spin...

now 40-50* temps the Dizzeras turn to rock apparently and its all over.....

I have actually been on AutoTrader looking at MS6s LOL

Lenny I wan't to see vids of your launches on Sunday...is Roy going or someone who will shoot vids??

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 OT but I would almost be scared to see how my car would pull with slicks...I mean I neuter 1-2nd gears almost completely and 3rd only has 1 nut this time of year. Its not the fastest MS3 by a long shot but it would be fun to do it a few times. In the summer, 80*+ I can run full power from 3 up w a lil spin... now 40-50* temps the Dizzeras turn to rock apparently and its all over..... I have actually been on AutoTrader looking at MS6s LOL Lenny I wan't to see vids of your launches on Sunday...is Roy going or someone who will shoot vids??

I will haz vid cam... will also video haltech's 15 sec passes....

[Dano]

lulz

oh and don't let either of them sensor what you post..cool?

its for the good of the community after all

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by lenny127 anthony, i know what u are saying but the fucker doesnt do well with timing.... i have better results with boost and no timing. also u guys forget my logs arent maf calibrated.... let me explain something and then u tell me if u now dont see a diff story. u see that i hit 11.76 when kr doesnt cause it to go richer right? that 11.76 is with meth...always. without it it will be about .6 leaner.... now i showed u guys logging with the eq ratio and the eq ratio vs actual afr is almost identical across....this means that if the meth wasnt spraying my EQ would be 11.76 and AFR 12.36 (which is what it does land on without meth..i pulled the fuse to verify) so AFR divided by EQ and u get 1.05102 which is basically what i would need to multiply maf tables by to get an EQ that matches the AFR right? are my calculations correct? so now since u guys tell me that maf flow and load is directly proportional to MAF scaling then multiply every value of load and gm/s by 1.05102 and it looks now quite different no? let me get the 24s in the car and ill log and u will see timing is no good for my car...benn like it for 4 years..not gonna change cuz the turbo grew. ill post logs tonight

aaron and i did some discussion and i think we figured out the reason your values are so diff then mine is because of my big MAF. my MAF table is perfect but scaled alot higher then yours because of my bigger housing which will skew all the equations. a 5% difference in your g/s isent even close to enough to compare our logs so it has to be the MAF diamaters

[djuosnteisn]

^ i hope you posted this before we talked on gmail...

g/s will be apples to apples between any two intake as long as both are properly calibrated.

[rodrigo]

^^^ and thats the point im trying to make. my shit isnt calibrated ....its a decision aaron and i made,..... as long as my AFRs are what I want them to be with meth I dont care about how accurate they are vs commanded....

on some of my better logs where it was 45 degrees and i hit 4.76 V you see about 311gm/s max at one point and max load ever seen (i think yesterday) was 2.21 or some shit.... that would be a "corrected" 326 gm/s and 2.32 load.... is it impressive?? nah... but more than adequate based on my 21-22psi and 10-11 degrees of total timing.

last thing i will say is dont forget my ms3 was always a low output motor....maybe from factory or maybe from abuse.... at stage 2 fully bolted with ported ko4 at 22psi i did maybe between 290 to 300whp tops..... aaron did that with 19-20psi and put on another 20whp.... he says he did it with about 14 14.5 degrees ...i knocked at 14 degrees and do5 full meth..... so with this in mind... is it rreally that difficult to comprehend that a motor that isnt in optimal shape (rings, carbon buildup, sludge blocking ports etc etc) will NOT put out the same power as one that is driven 4 times a year????? this falls in line with how my car has performed for years..... nothing new and surprising to me here.

and as far as timing.... yes I do lose torque without it.... but if you have a chevy and u turn the distributor counterclockwise and the fucker starts pinging then u went too far and u gotta retard it some ...and it dont matter if your neighbor can advance his more.... u do what u can with YOUR car.... u cant tune according to what OTHERS can do. perfect example is dano... he says he needs to run meth at a certain point to not KR.... yet others can run same boost and timing with no meth.... all are different and generalities are for ballparks.

anyways...im not worried.... 22psi boost gets me that 350whp and lower timing lessens load and increases the longevity of my beat motor. all is well fellas.

and dano..... im not hard launching the ms3....im gonna first do a couple of moderate launches to induce some spin in first and slight in second to establish my trap speed.

and of course we will tape it and NO censorship!!!

[Dano]

hahah

I didn't think you were gonna do 4K clutch drops but on street rubber there's no such thing as "launch" right..its LC at 2.8K for me then weeeeeeeeeeee spin...short shift to 2nd weeeeeeeee spin, shift into third THEN you start to move LOL [pedding the throttle the whold time in 1-2nd mind you


I just think those slicks will rock.

[rodrigo]

i really have no practice because on the street its just fucken unbearable spin..... 1st is useless as always...half throttle at most... second same shit if i floor it it spins the whole rpm range and its so violent that its really hard grabbing third at the right rpm cuz the tach goes bonkers.... when i do a good shift into third with half throttle let off to stay in boost third spins halfway....

im hoping with slicks i will spin first....and barely spin second and we will see....remember i am not going for ET right now so psi on tires will be kept at 22-24

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by lenny127 ^^^ and thats the point im trying to make. my shit isnt calibrated ....its a decision aaron and i made,..... as long as my AFRs are what I want them to be with meth I dont care about how accurate they are vs commanded.... on some of my better logs where it was 45 degrees and i hit 4.76 V you see about 311gm/s max at one point and max load ever seen (i think yesterday) was 2.21 or some shit.... that would be a "corrected" 326 gm/s and 2.32 load.... is it impressive?? nah... but more than adequate based on my 21-22psi and 10-11 degrees of total timing. last thing i will say is dont forget my ms3 was always a low output motor....maybe from factory or maybe from abuse.... at stage 2 fully bolted with ported ko4 at 22psi i did maybe between 290 to 300whp tops..... aaron did that with 19-20psi and put on another 20whp.... he says he did it with about 14 14.5 degrees ...i knocked at 14 degrees and do5 full meth..... so with this in mind... is it rreally that difficult to comprehend that a motor that isnt in optimal shape (rings, carbon buildup, sludge blocking ports etc etc) will NOT put out the same power as one that is driven 4 times a year????? this falls in line with how my car has performed for years..... nothing new and surprising to me here. and as far as timing.... yes I do lose torque without it.... but if you have a chevy and u turn the distributor counterclockwise and the fucker starts pinging then u went too far and u gotta retard it some ...and it dont matter if your neighbor can advance his more.... u do what u can with YOUR car.... u cant tune according to what OTHERS can do. perfect example is dano... he says he needs to run meth at a certain point to not KR.... yet others can run same boost and timing with no meth.... all are different and generalities are for ballparks. anyways...im not worried.... 22psi boost gets me that 350whp and lower timing lessens load and increases the longevity of my beat motor. all is well fellas. and dano..... im not hard launching the ms3....im gonna first do a couple of moderate launches to induce some spin in first and slight in second to establish my trap speed. and of course we will tape it and NO censorship!!!

hmmmmm i realize your MAF curve isent "calibrated" but were talking about a 5% difference here between calibrated and uncalibrated which in reality we can almost consider negligible.

i just have a hard time understanding how both our cars at the same boost level and a difference in timing of about 3-4 degrees can have a g/s difference of like 75. thats roughly 75 BHP which cant be explained by a new vs old motor or any other wear and tear item.

dustin and i had a gchat convo a lil while ago and he told me that my CPE big maf is the sole reason we are seeing such different values. i find it hard to believe but he seemed to be pretty sure and i trust his judgement. dont take my argument against you as an attack, but i just want to make sure your car is doing what its supposed to and your not loosing power or knocking because of some dumb thing thats wrong with your tune.

this all just seems a little fishy to me and im trying my best to make sure your car reaches 112 on saturday.

also lenny i know you had a giant thread on this but heres 2 good reads on meth mixtures. im switching back to 50/50 after reading these but your a stubborn motherfucker so i prob just wasted the last 30 sec of my life typing the above words haha.

Water Injection, what mix/ratio of methanol should be used? - SRT Forums - SRT4, SRT6, SRT8, SRT10 & Dodge Forum

Injection Mixtures 101 - evolutionm.net

[rodrigo]

oh i dont take any of this as an attack...not at all, i taker all of you guys' comments and observations as help and i welcome it.

i am super stubborn and perhaps quite ignorant in tuning. but variances in horsepower between cars with similar mods are normal if the cars aren't in the same condition. u assume my car is in a condition to be pushed like this and it is and isnt. i burn 1qt of oil every 3k miles.... that my friend is a results of rings not sealing any longer.... I am not interested in confirming with a compression check because part of me enjoying this car is turning a blind eye to what i know is already wrong with my motor.

lower compression and oil in the chamber will cause detonation because a) the mixture of air and fuel is compromised and well....the shit dont burn at the same rate now and in the same controlled manner and b) lower compression from gas escaping through the rings means that 22psi for me could be 20psi out the exhaust valve and 2psi down the cylinder walls into the crankcase. (remember that as soon as I put a breather on my valve cover i developed a leak....that means i already have a decent amount of pressure no doubt caused by blow by.

now.... have u ever seen a 80k mile DI motor???? Anthony (driver311) says he saw almost 3/4 inch of sludge on his runners..... i didnt start spraying meth until about 40k ....anbd while meth slows down the process...it WILL NEVER TAKE OFF AN INCH OF SLUDGE IN A RUNNER....it might make it moist and sloppy but it wont get rid of it.

so.... lower compression, oil in the chamber, smaller cc volume of intake and head runners and who the fuck knows what else is living inside my motor..... this could very well account for Dano making 350whp with 20psi and decent timing and me making that or close to it with 22psi and lower timing........ it really to me makes total sense. i

i should one day do a log without meth at 16psi so u can see KR in every other timestamp.....my shit is a ticking time bomb.... i just wet my fingers and keep putting the fuse out hahahahahahhahah

now as far as meth...... this is what i have found out myself.

pure meth will make more power on the same tune thats pushed to the limit
pure meth will lower BAT beyond ambient
pure meth will raise octane and allow more timing

add water to the mix and ........

you will have less power for the same tune
your BAT wont be as low as with pure meth
your EGTs will drop more with water than with meth
water helps KR more when its a matter of combustion temps and hot spots rather than advanced timing wherte pure meth will allow more

for me I run better on do5 100% meth than do5 60/40 meth/water .... when i do try the do7 i will then do a 5/2 mix meth/water so i can have still the 5gph flow of meth and another 2gph of water... so basically i will have the same amount of meth but with the addition of water..... but i will also try pure meth on a do7 to see how then that compares.


all in all i seriously thank you for challenging ideas..i know u guys are trying to help and certainly know more about tuning than I.

now.... lets all take a moment of silence and pray to lord budha that lenny traps 112-114mph saturday !!!!!!!!!

[socks]

how about you take your intake manifold off and see if yours is bad and/or clean it up?