ATP 3071r swap how to , lenny gets BT fever too

[rigor]

here lenny i found a lil blurb of yours ha

cuz its a more complex boost control and slower to react than an mbc... and more time consuming i assume....

im fine with 18psi across all gears....like a man!

[rodrigo]

im totally fine with the mbc myself.... all im after is 350whp.... which from what the numbers relate to should be 300-310gm/s of maf flow .... at 19psi i reach 285 on ots map... so 21psi should yield the number I want and i can do that right now in 3 seconds..... but, i am trying to help the community out in what we all believe is the most likely way people with AP cars will tune their set ups.....

who said i wasnt a team player?

[rigor]

follower swayed by the wind lol....
i have to bust your chops!
it's my duty!

[rodrigo]

oh i know, i expect nothing less. im gonna do some testing tonight see what kinda spool up i get, i want to make sure the wga isn't set too soft

[Dano]

I would say go for 12-13PSI WG only , then it will creep up to 15 @ RL

When I cranked mine down to open at 14 it oscillated more.

[rodrigo]

im gonna basically set this as my standard to shoot for.... floor it at 3k and adjust wga for it to hit full boost by 3800.

anyways, my mbc fun is about to run out, i just received the grimmspeed ebc..so i sent xtian the news and asked him to send me something tame before I go hooking up the EBC to my 22psi ko4 maps lol

any suggestions on how to proceed? dont do ebc until i get something that wont overboost for sure right?

[Dano]

Originally Posted by rigor here lenny i found a lil blurb of yours ha cuz its a more complex boost control and slower to react than an mbc... and more time consuming i assume.... im fine with 18psi across all gears....like a man!

so lets see how much has changed from before BT install and after

The above comments from Lenny were pre BT install.....thanks rigor for looking those up

IIRC his HP target at that time was 320WHP

Now, not even a full week after we are at a 21PSI tune, 350WHP target, and will try to run an EBC.

I wanted to find the 3 or 4 quotes in my BT thread where Mr BTLenny chimed in and told me over and over again when I was working through my EBC tuning "MBC MBC MBC"...alas the site crash has erased those forever so I have no proof...hahahah

Its funny how our perspective can change so quickly and the interwebz is there to throw it in our face.

I am not saying I don't do the exact same thing but I am bored and thought I'd spice this thread up a bit...I am sure Lenny will craft a very interesting retort...and perhaps I will wish I had remained bored.....

stay up [team] playa

Originally Posted by lenny127 im gonna basically set this as my standard to shoot for.... floor it at 3k and adjust wga for it to hit full boost by 3800. anyways, my mbc fun is about to run out, i just received the grimmspeed ebc..so i sent xtian the news and asked him to send me something tame before I go hooking up the EBC to my 22psi ko4 maps lol any suggestions on how to proceed? dont do ebc until i get something that wont overboost for sure right?

do NOT run the EBC in 3 port mode on your current tune. WGDC values will need to be reduced to like 15-20 across the board then slowley increased back up. Since 3 port is inturrupting the boost signal to the WGA you would likely go boom in about 3 seconds.

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 so lets see how much has changed from before BT install and after The above comments from Lenny were pre BT install.....thanks rigor for looking those up IIRC his HP target at that time was 320WHP Now, not even a full week after we are at a 20PSI tune, 350WHP target, and will try to run an EBC. I wanted to find the 3 or 4 quotes in my BT thread where Mr BTLenny chimed in and told me over and over again when I was working through my EBC tuning "MBC MBC MBC"...alas the site crash has erased those forever so I have no proof...hahahah Its funny how our perspective can change so quickly and the interwebz is there to throw it in our face. I am not saying I don't do the exact same thing but I am bored and thought I'd spice this thread up a bit...I am sure Lenny will craft a very interesting retort...and perhaps I will wish I had remained bored..... stay up [team] playa do NOT run the EBC in 3 port mode on your current tune

sorry buddy but u are 100% mistaken.

I have always said I wanted to shoot for 340-350whp , I was hoping to achieve this with 18psi..... I am not sure if my engine has it in it to achieve this through afr + timing with 18psi alone.... so, if I need to crank the fucker to 20psi to achieve 350whp I am good to go.

as far as MBC.... I would be happy to fwd you my response to xtian when he originally approached me and haltech as well...... I am doing this for you guys, to me oscillations don't mean shit.....more boost in the cold vs warm from mbc...GREAT!!! just more power.....boost adjustability based on rpm or gear...dont care about that..thats why god gavce u a right foot.

so by all means find as many contradictory posts as u can.... im here all week sukka lol

Originally Posted by Dano2010 do NOT run the EBC in 3 port mode on your current tune. WGDC values will need to be reduced to like 15-20 across the board then slowley increased back up. Since 3 port is inturrupting the boost signal to the WGA you would likely go boom in about 3 seconds.

thank you!!!! that is what i was hinting at to xtian... i seriously dont want to understand why or wtf any of it means, im not a tuner nor do i want to be.... i just wanna go fast now! haha

yeah i wont hook it up until he sends me some safe shit, and ill be half throttling it as i see boost climb..... on that i am super slow to try more and more throttle input

[Dano]

hahaha

well I wouldn't call my post 100% mistaken and perhaps I honed in on your qualifying statements about your goals and not the overal goal...LOL

as far as the EBC is concerned, It will be much safer on your old worn out motor than the MBC.

interested to see how this all turns out.

[rodrigo]

ya me too...hopefully not in vta block haha

tell u what..that fucken mbc dial is pretty tempting, i already tuyrned the fucker up 3 full cranks since monday lol

[Dano]

YESSSS...Therein lies the problem...its way too easy to turn that dial on the fly vs. having to flash another map into the car....the map flash is a level of self control I for one NEED!

funny story....while I had my Hallman hooked up I turned that dial up and hit 23PSI one day...ok car was hauling ASS for sure but scared the chit out of me when I looked at the logs later hahahahah

[rodrigo]

thats what happened to me when i had the fucker cranked all the way up from not having preload on the wga.... when i touched 2nd gear it jumped to 22psi like at half throttle and i was like yaow...some powah up in here haha

dangerous shit, but common sense usually can help alot... when i try something new, map, mbc, turbo or just a mod I always do the same.... I try first boost in second that has low load and only like 1/3 input.... then we go for hal then 2/3 then if i see im still not anywhere near outrageous boost i go wot but keeping an eye on needle and kr

well, ill let u guys know how xtian proceeds with the ebc now

[Ziggo]

I still want to see someone purposefully tune in some boost "creep" or reverse taper. Thats the real advantage of going through the trouble to use the EBCS.

Say 18psi at 3500 climbing to 22-23psi at 5000 and up Keeps the rod liberating torque down on the low end, flattens the torque curve out and gets some power out.

I think you could be nipping at 400whp on the stock block with a nice, safe 350lb-ft of torque.

[SpeedSixxx]

sorry, this is off topic a bit but I think of all ppl lenny would know.

dustins 449 awhp dyno... where can I see the proof?

did he ever post any slip or video of that day?

[rodrigo]

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...sb-dyno-59440/

Originally Posted by Ziggo I still want to see someone purposefully tune in some boost "creep" or reverse taper. Thats the real advantage of going through the trouble to use the EBCS. Say 18psi at 3500 climbing to 22-23psi at 5000 and up Keeps the rod liberating torque down on the low end, flattens the torque curve out and gets some power out. I think you could be nipping at 400whp on the stock block with a nice, safe 350lb-ft of torque.

these turbos keep making more and more power even to redline.... u dont even need creep to accomplish what U stated.

if u look at anyones logs that boost isnt purposely reduced up top we all show the highest flow/hp at the end of the log

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by lenny127 http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...sb-dyno-59440/ these turbos keep making more and more power even to redline.... u dont even need creep to accomplish what U stated. if u look at anyones logs that boost isnt purposely reduced up top we all show the highest flow/hp at the end of the log

It's the increasing rpm that causes the flow to keep going up. The torque still falls off pretty abruptly. If you flatten off the torque more by increasing the boost you will see the power/flow go up very quickly.

The reason you don't just tune a flat boost curve is you can safely run alot more boost at 5k than you can at 3k.

[Lex]

Less talky, more loggy.

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by Lex Less talky, more wheelspin.

Fixed. It's going to start raining here tonight and not stop till at least next wendsday.

[turd burglar]

no will this ebc tuning help us ewg guys, or is it gonna run 3 port iwg only?

[rodrigo]

ok guys. i have important data. let me put my thoughts straight so you guys can follow properly.

1. ran the car, boost built super slow.
2. assumed it was the wga and in part it was, pre loading it helped build the boost.
3. i logged tonight and floored it at 3k and car felt like a dud.
4. called anthony (driver311) and got another schooling.... he said "yo i bet its creep"
5. did a test he recommended, dropm mbc to nothing so i run spring pressure.... stab the throttle at 3500 and monitor what the needle jumps to within a few hundred rpm.... it jumped to 14.... then it climbed to 18 by redline..... creep was confirmed
6. did a second test.... set the boost all the way up on mbc (light spring only allows about 5-6 psi above spring) stabbed the gas at 3k (after verifying it wasnt gonna go to 30psi lol) and within 500 rpm it was at 20 and went up no more than 1 psi by redline.... so.... creep was minimal.... this turbo as is likes to run 20psi to be consistent it seems.....fml !!!!
7. a new theory of mine arises...... i need to set the wga with some preload, but the least as possible to allow the flapper to open as much as possible when it needs to control boost as to minimize creep.

conclusion.... i misread everything and assumed a ton of shit out of ignorance. I have no point of reference of what is lag vs creep... so i assumed lag was what I was experiencing.

so here are my options

a) take turbo out and port it
b) add maybe another cat as to back up flow a bit
c) accept the fact that this turbo is gonna run 20-21 psi for it to be properly tuned

I am gonna go ahead and go with C !!!!!!!!

anyways, i believe that i preloaded the wga more than I needed to, if you look at the logs i will post boost comes in super fast... like I floor it at 2800 and by 3300 I have full boost, I am going to back up on the preload of the wga until I can get boost to hit 12-13psi off spring pressure, this will ensure that I have preload, and also as much travel as possible for the flapper to help control creep....beyond that I will just have to run 20 psi at least and that is fine by me... I dint buy this turbo to run economy maps.

here are some logs....

first 3 are from mbc set to zero.... u will see it jumps to about 14psi and then climbs steadily upwards of 18psi... that is creep (thanks anthony on skooling me)

last 3 are the mbc turned almost all the way up.... u will notice boost climbs super fast hits 20 and settles on 21 (which is why i believe i can perhaps back off the preload to slow that down and also help creep)

one log will show boost cut (i hit 22) when i did a 3rd gear + 4th gear pull .... the combo and added boost was too much. so thats another problem....... ( log 7)

and also , doesn it look like I hit load cap since load is around 2.0 for quite a while?? yet this map is set to 3.0 load cap....(log 9)

datalog1.csv

datalog2.csv

datalog3.csv

datalog7.csv

datalog8.csv

datalog9.csv

[cld12pk2go]

I looked at a logs 8 and 9, and they look pretty sweet.

You have zero KR, you can probably lean out ~ 0.5 AFR up top and add a few ° of timing (slowly over several maps of course).

Looks like your car is responding very well to the new setup.

[rigor]

ok lenny ive got it! you can tape a watch next to the tack, and take a series of picks on your 40-100 pull lol

it will work! haha!

dont feal bad i can't run any lower than 19!
but im ready to turn it up lol

so it probably is a non issue

it seemed to me, the longer i tried to keep boost down, the worse the creep got!

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 I would say go for 12-13PSI WG only , then it will creep up to 15 @ RL When I cranked mine down to open at 14 it oscillated more.

ah um!

~ 15 post ago yesterday morning yo....

[rodrigo]

dont get smart with me dano!! lol

[Dano]

dood!

1) I am known as a sarcastic smart ass so deal with it hahaha
2) I have setup my GT28 9 ways to Sunday so I do know just a lil about what it will and will not do. This is not because I am smarter than anyone else...just the opposite in fact, and I experimented with it more ways than guys that know better would have to and it is fresh in my mind. LOL

carry on!

[Lex]

Lenny you have to understand the forces involved with the wastegate and a little bit about flow.

To sum it up, you will see "creep" if you try to divert too much of the gas flow through the wastegate because the wastegate is not efficient enough for you to run 14psi through it. That is not necessarily a bad thing unless you want to run 14psi.

The wg is however efficient enough to allow you to run 20 psi because at that point the turbine and rest of your exhaust and motor overall provides enough flow resistance so that the turbo does not generate more boost.

The MBC simply controls 1 of the forces in the equation and that is one of the forces pushing the WG open.

MBCs are very simple to "tune" as you have seen. However they are dumb non feedback devices. In other words, if other forces that are part of the equation change your boost will fluctuate somewhat. This will be most apparent when outside temperature changes so keep an eye on that. This is where the electronic boost controller comes into play. It allows you to always recalibrate the force acting on the WG so that a desired boost is always achieved through feedback (it reads the actual boost and adjusts itself).

Torque tuning takes it one step further. People realized that in terms of engine load, boost pressure is one of the variables - air density being the other major one. So this is why Mazda tunes for load - because in the end the torque to the wheels is what you want to hold constant, not a boost pressure since torque is not JUST dependent on boost.

IMO, torque (load) based tuning is the most advanced but also the most complicated because it includes the most variables to be controlled.

[Dano]

there is a reason this dood ^^^^^ is orange....

[rodrigo]

also, christian sent me a 16psi zerod out wgdc to begin ebc tuning.... i told him of what i found and see what he says,.... first thing he pointed out b4 i even mentioned this is that he has had EVERY ATP turbo had boost issues that wasn't ported.

so not sure how we will be able to tune below 20psi for base map.....

in the end i am doing this for u guys, im way content running 19.5 psi with mbc and letting it creep to 21 by redline , lil timing 12-13, lil less fuel 11.6-11.8 AFR and im set....fancy shit for fancy people lol

ill keep u posted, hopefully lessening preload a hair helps

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by lenny127 also, christian sent me a 16psi zerod out wgdc to begin ebc tuning.... i told him of what i found and see what he says,.... first thing he pointed out b4 i even mentioned this is that he has had EVERY ATP turbo had boost issues that wasn't ported. so not sure how we will be able to tune below 20psi for base map..... in the end i am doing this for u guys, im way content running 19.5 psi with mbc and letting it creep to 21 by redline , lil timing 12-13, lil less fuel 11.6-11.8 AFR and im set....fancy shit for fancy people lol ill keep u posted, hopefully lessening preload a hair helps

port the hot side on the atp and you run the very big risk of cracking another housing.
buy t3 housing and get a bigger compressor housing then that pos .50

good luck

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by SpeedSixxx port the hot side on the atp and you run the very big risk of cracking another housing. buy t3 housing and get a bigger compressor housing then that pos .50 good luck

Or go external wastegate like real men do

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by SpeedSixxx port the hot side on the atp and you run the very big risk of cracking another housing. buy t3 housing and get a bigger compressor housing then that pos .50 good luck

not the housing jerky, just the transition from incoming gases to the wg hole.... basically what I described on the first page with pics of my finger inside the wg

and im not doing shit,

we are proceeding with ebc tuning.... although lower boost tuning might not be doable.... but i'll be nice and content with a 19-20 psi map that creeps to 21 by redline.

all is well , ill be swapping boost controllers tomorrow and logging initial map sent by christian

[SpeedSixxx]

oh, yeah, sorry...

port the iwg hole...

as Jwilks said.. be a man and weld that shit up and get a 38mm tial wg, then you gotta have it welded to your mani some how and blah blah.. too much work for you to do after all that has been done already..

have fun with what u got and port that tiny lil cunt hole of a wg....

[rodrigo]

u are not listening...that turbo is on the car..not coming off..ever....ever!!!

ill tune around it..... if the fucker creeps down low then we run the boost that turbo is meant to run anyways.... 20-22psi end of story.... look at the 20psi log.... we bring AFR to 11.6 and timing up to 12 and Ill have easy 350whp without thinking about it. I just want to see if this EBC gives me a lil more control of the boost ... either way im good to go

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by lenny127 u are not listening...that turbo is on the car..not coming off..ever....ever!!! ill tune around it..... if the fucker creeps down low then we run the boost that turbo is meant to run anyways.... 20-22psi end of story.... look at the 20psi log.... we bring AFR to 11.6 and timing up to 12 and Ill have easy 350whp without thinking about it. I just want to see if this EBC gives me a lil more control of the boost ... either way im good to go

Oh it'll come off.... once you VTA the block and need to rebuild... lol...


muahahahahahaha

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by hnda etr Oh it'll come off.... once you VTA the block and need to rebuild... lol... muahahahahahaha

i was willing to share some fail...but seems u got greedy and took it all in one WOT pull..... thanks niggah

[SpeedSixxx]

eww! 350 whp is all you're going for ...

you can hit that with a reworked k04..

400 whp at a min or you're a faggot.

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by SpeedSixxx eww! 350 whp is all you're going for ... you can hit that with a reworked k04.. 400 whp at a min or you're a faggot.

im sorry..aren u the guy with the 35r inside his closet and the ms6 that runs 15s? yeah thats u

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by lenny127 im sorry..aren u the guy with the 35r inside his closet and the ms6 that runs 15s? yeah thats u

nah , the 35r is next to my bed and tell u the truth I have no clue what I run in the 1/4 mile cause I never ran it at the track.

I have run cars in the low 13's and high 12's and been even..

stop being butt hurt cause you're going for faggot hp numbers on a turbo that can hit 449 whp on a ms6....

ur the guy going for homo #'s, yeah thats you!

=)

love ya!

[rodrigo]

hit me up when u get anything accomplished and i mean anything. turbo swap, run at the track, any worthwhile threads, anything dude.... I'll be here all week.

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by lenny127 hit me up when u get anything accomplished and i mean anything. turbo swap, run at the track, any worthwhile threads, anything dude.... I'll be here all week.

=), will do buddy.

is jerkin it with my left hand an accomplishment?