Bullseye Billet S259 build (soon to be double Batmowheel S366)

[jhershorin]

Originally Posted by Erich If I wasn't able to view the post you deleted, I may actually have thought this was constructive criticism. You can pat yourself on the back now, another job well done.

I deleted the post because there was no value aside from voicing that I think it looks amateur. Since it had no value I deleted it immediately.

Originally Posted by kmac I see what u r saying about the fuel , but I don't see any shade tree parts . I think it looks good and if u don't like it It's one thing , but don't give back handed compliments .

Shade tree parts -> that intake manifold looks like shit. It may flow - and def a fan of function over form - but a company making parts for a consumer should not leave it looking amateur. I won't go into depth more because back handed or not I truely do think what Erich has decided to do here is great. Breaking the mold. Trying something new. I am all for that. I deleted the post saying how the fit and finish was sub par (to my standards i guess) since it added no value. But what needs to be said here is that meth is not additional fueling and should not be considered such. That was the point of my post.

With a larger turbo the car could very well make HUGEEEEEEEEEE power. Hopefully they rethink the additional fueling concept as meth just wont help much.

[Erich]

Originally Posted by jhershorin Shade tree parts -> that intake manifold looks like shit. It may flow - and def a fan of function over form - but a company making parts for a consumer should not leave it looking amateur. I won't go into depth more because back handed or not I truely do think what Erich has decided to do here is great. Breaking the mold. Trying something new. I am all for that. I deleted the post saying how the fit and finish was sub par (to my standards i guess) since it added no value. But what needs to be said here is that meth is not additional fueling and should not be considered such. That was the point of my post. With a larger turbo the car could very well make HUGEEEEEEEEEE power. Hopefully they rethink the additional fueling concept as meth just wont help much.

Finish on the parts is not done. I decided to put them on the car and run them through the paces before paying to have them polished up and made to look nice. The parts will come off the car in a couple months for finishing work when we are fairly certain they need no revision. From the first paragraph of my first post:

Originally Posted by Erich Once we know everything works well and nothing else needs to be tweaked, we pull everything off for cleanup and powder coating.

None of these parts had been tested before, which is one of the reasons I didn't pay the prices he listed on the other forum. Those prices would apply to finished parts that have been well tested on my car.

Huge power isn't really my goal, though I would like to see that in dyno numbers and drag numbers (will probably require somebody else to drive as my drag experience is very limitted.) I wanted useable power, which is why I went with the S259. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I am extremely surprised at how early the S259 is spooling and may sell it sooner rather than later in favor of an S362.

[kmac]

Originally Posted by jhershorin I deleted the post because there was no value aside from voicing that I think it looks amateur. Since it had no value I deleted it immediately. Shade tree parts -> that intake manifold looks like shit. It may flow - and def a fan of function over form - but a company making parts for a consumer should not leave it looking amateur. I won't go into depth more because back handed or not I truely do think what Erich has decided to do here is great. Breaking the mold. Trying something new. I am all for that. I deleted the post saying how the fit and finish was sub par (to my standards i guess) since it added no value. But what needs to be said here is that meth is not additional fueling and should not be considered such. That was the point of my post. With a larger turbo the car could very well make HUGEEEEEEEEEE power. Hopefully they rethink the additional fueling concept as meth just wont help much.

Like I said I agree with the fuel to add port inj to compensate for the inj not being able to keep up . Me I'm waiting for upgraded inj to be released which should be soon. As far as shade tree I still don't see it he already said It's not complete and it will be painted , right now It's in its test stage, there is no need to paint it if it doesn't work as planned and u have to change stuff, that's what I did and I got all the bugs worked out now its painted and a finished product and looks great. I just had to deal with same stuff u just were saying even though I said it wasn't done . As far as huge turbo , It's not that big and he already said he's not looking to go huge power he just wanted something different with option of making big power if he wants. Listen if u think It's ok to come in someone's tread and talk like that about there stuff then u need to go to a class on manners. If u don't like it just say cool , but not for me g/l with the build.

[jhershorin]

Originally Posted by kmac As far as huge turbo , It's not that big and he already said he's not looking to go huge power he just wanted something different with option of making big power if he wants.

LOL...You guys don't quit. I said that the build has huge potential if they go a route with a bigger turbo. This means that it looks like that aspect of things was planned out well - and IF he ever wanted to go bigger with the turbo his setup could sustain it. Just because I have my opinions about John@PTP doesn't mean all of the cars that come out of his shop will follow that opinion. I would never buy anything from him but backhanded or not - Erich's build has potential if he ever wants to go BIGGGGGGGGgg. If he doesn't and wants to stay within the limits of a S259 (which will make very impressive and efficient numbers) then he is set. If you don't like my comments - delete them. Erich has that ability and is more than welcome to. Nothing I have said is untrue or misleading. I came in to comment on meth being a poor substitute for additional fueling. To compliment him on breaking the mold and going a different route. I even originally left out the appearance comments until Erich brought them up. You guys look for things to hate on. This is MSF. Embrace the love. Its a cool build because its different and has the potential to make good power. Anything else?

[Mizzle]

Go S362 with an E50 mix. The increase in exhaust volume should help to negate added lag, non?

[kmac]

Whatever , u apparently think your right and there's no changing that, but u should still keep it to your self.
U always have something to say to everybody that's not swinging from your nuts, when I see u fab something then I'll take your opinion with some validity to it. I don't see ethanol being good on his car unless he adds port inj or until bigger ones come out. If he turns up the boost he will run out of inj real fast , due to the fact the amount of fuel needed to run ethanol and he's prob real close to running out of inj already.

[Mizzle]

My dick's bigger than both of yours.

[kmac]

Originally Posted by Mizzle My dick's bigger than both of yours.

Haha, I love it.

[Erich]

Originally Posted by kmac If he turns up the boost he will run out of inj real fast , due to the fact the amount of fuel needed to run ethanol and he's prob real close to running out of inj already.

He is talking to cobb about this because we have seen some oddities in the inj. duty cycle. Spiking to 100+ on a couple of occasions but the AFR's don't go lean. And that is just on 16 PSI boost but over 7000 RPM.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Mizzle My dick's bigger than both of yours.

Mine probably isn't.

[Jrmoon]

I love to hang sprinkler pipe allday

[Erich]

Originally Posted by Mizzle My dick's bigger than both of yours.

Damn it, there is a thread in City of God for that.

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by Erich He is talking to cobb about this because we have seen some oddities in the inj. duty cycle. Spiking to 100+ on a couple of occasions but the AFR's don't go lean. And that is just on 16 PSI boost but over 7000 RPM.

I'm pretty sure it's the pulse width that becomes the issue with the higher rpm.

At lower rpm the PW can be made longer to get more fuel in, but at higher rpm there isn't enough time for the longer PW so you end up hitting your mech fueling limit (100% IDC)

I think a true secondary fuel source is needed with real builds like this until we get some injectors.

The BEST option right now imo is to run wmi as it was intended... do3-do7 nozzle or equivalent, tapped in the cold pipe and used for COOLING as well as a slight octane boost.

THEN run a second tank,pump, and controller for direct port FUEL injection to combat the DI related issues we're running into.

If you just run the wmi and port fuel injection off two separate 5V controllers, it should be really easy to tune.

[Erich]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 I'm pretty sure it's the pulse width that becomes the issue with the higher rpm. At lower rpm the PW can be made longer to get more fuel in, but at higher rpm there isn't enough time for the longer PW so you end up hitting your mech fueling limit (100% IDC) I think a true secondary fuel source is needed with real builds like this until we get some injectors. The BEST option right now imo is to run wmi as it was intended... do3-do7 nozzle or equivalent, tapped in the cold pipe and used for COOLING as well as a slight octane boost. THEN run a second tank,pump, and controller for direct port FUEL injection to combat the DI related issues we're running into. If you just run the wmi and port fuel injection off two separate 5V controllers, it should be really easy to tune.

I don't know where people are getting that our intention was to use the meth for extra fueling. I wanted port to make sure I was getting even distribution to the cylinders. I knew I lost the sensor seeing the cooling benefits by doing this. John mentioned extra fueling in a thread on another forum, but it was more in the context of if we need to use it to squeeze a few extra HP out to get to a number we would then we were counting on it to make big numbers.

With the input I have received here I am reconsidering moving the meth to the cold pipe though. As close as the runner flow distribution is on this IM I shouldn't have anything at all to worry about as far as meth distribution goes.

[Mizzle]

Erich - Since you're open to considering other options, how about:

Take out the WMI altogether, but keep the intake manifold. Replace WMI's with injectors off a Flex-fuel vehicle, install secondary fueling system (& tank,) and then fill it up with E85.

Drawbacks:

You'd be the first and you'd have all the responsibilities associated with that.
Two fuel tanks vs. one & all the subsequent equip.


Benefits:

Extra fuel so you won't worry about maxing out the stock system.
Cooling.
Nothing to do with your stock fueling system so no ethanol-related deterioration.
MO POWAH IN TEH ZOOM-ZOOM

Thoughts/opinions?

[jracer]

huh ^^^^^

[bmylez]

Originally Posted by Erich With the input I have received here I am reconsidering moving the meth to the cold pipe though. As close as the runner flow distribution is on this IM I shouldn't have anything at all to worry about as far as meth distribution goes.

This is a halfway serious suggestion: run a 5th, smaller nozzle in the cold pipe so that the BAT sensor sees the cooling but you also get near perfect distribution since the 5th nozzle wouldn't be contributing as much.

[jhershorin]

In all honesty the best plan would be to do a m4 in the cold pipe and m1's in each runner. Too much meth is a bad thing (50/50 too). You want to find the right amount. Testing shows that on a dyno you can continue to gain timing with a certain ml/min and then when you reach optimum conditions and continue to increase meth flow (ml/min) you will actually lose power from too much fluid. Running 4 m4's is about 1200ml/min which is more geared towards the 450whp area (I don't remember specifically how much power). For 400whp Matt Snow has me running about 700ml-800ml/min if I remember right but I may not.

My biggest suggestion would be to run dual nozzles equivelant to the ml / min you want to run for good atomization and put them in the charge pipe far enough from the throttle body to promote max cooling (running 50/50 for the benefits of lower cylinder temps).

[kmac]

Agreed, that's why I'm running 4 m2 nozzles direct inj and one m4 pre throttle body for the iat to see the drop in temp all on a progressive controller from cooling mist.

[Erich]

Originally Posted by bmylez This is a halfway serious suggestion: run a 5th, smaller nozzle in the cold pipe so that the BAT sensor sees the cooling but you also get near perfect distribution since the 5th nozzle wouldn't be contributing as much.

This is one of the options I discussed with John today.

[bmylez]

Ok, then it was a fully serious suggestion

[Erich]

Saw an oddity yesterday. Flashed a tune and started getting P0335 (crank position circuit failure.) Clearing the code and cycling the key would instantly bring it back (no need to start the car). Checked the sensor and all wires from sensor to ECU with out finding a problem. Tried reflashing the same tune same problem. Flashing to the previous tune made the problem go away. New tune had some timing and fueling changes but nothing major. Have since flashed a tune with the same changes with no problems.

[kmac]

That's really odd. Never heard of that before.

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by Erich Saw an oddity yesterday. Flashed a tune and started getting P0335 (crank position circuit failure.) Clearing the code and cycling the key would instantly bring it back (no need to start the car). Checked the sensor and all wires from sensor to ECU with out finding a problem. Tried reflashing the same tune same problem. Flashing to the previous tune made the problem go away. New tune had some timing and fueling changes but nothing major. Have since flashed a tune with the same changes with no problems.

I'm actually getting that same code right now... It's curious, no?

[djuosnteisn]

Flash a different map maybe.



I wonder if the AP is stepping on some ecu logic toes. I've heard a few oddities kinda like this.... wonder if it has anything to do with brandon's issues.

[Erich]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Flash a different map maybe. I wonder if the AP is stepping on some ecu logic toes. I've heard a few oddities kinda like this.... wonder if it has anything to do with brandon's issues.

Stepping on ecu logic is my best guess. Had to be some corruption somewhere though, because the same changes in another new map didn't cause the same issue. Also can't be writing something it shouldn't or flashing other maps likely wouldn't fix it.

[djuosnteisn]

Was the other map created on a different computer? Perhaps with a different version of ATR installed? Or were all these done on the same computer, same version, etc?

[Erich]

Actually the newest map was made on a different computer. Same ATR version though. All the other maps I have done have been on the computer the erroring map came from.

[djuosnteisn]

Interesting.


Did the car start properly when you were getting the crank position sensor error? Were you able to drive on that bad map?




Sorry for asking so many questions, but i've got a guy i'm tuning who's car is behaving quite odd, and all signs pointed to the crank sensor (his rpm would randomly drop during logs while decelerating, e.g. engine braking). He put a new sensor on, and it's only made things seemingly worse).

I'm starting to suspect something else though.

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Interesting. Did the car start properly when you were getting the crank position sensor error? Were you able to drive on that bad map? Sorry for asking so many questions, but i've got a guy i'm tuning who's car is behaving quite odd, and all signs pointed to the crank sensor (his rpm would randomly drop during logs while decelerating, e.g. engine braking). He put a new sensor on, and it's only made things seemingly worse). I'm starting to suspect something else though.

Mine was running fine with that code... No weirdness

[Erich]

Same, car seems to run fine. No idle issues or cruising issues (drove it down to John's shop to put it on the lift for better view after I determined the car was running okay) didn't get into boost whit that map at all though.

Originally Posted by jwilkins88 Mine was running fine with that code... No weirdness

Have you tried going back to the last map that worked with out the code and working forward from there?

[djuosnteisn]

Brandon's car was running fine as well, but wold try to shut down on him while engine braking. His rpm's would randomly drop to zero, then come right back up.

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by Erich Have you tried going back to the last map that worked with out the code and working forward from there?

Nope, but i'll give it a shot as soon as the car is back up running

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Brandon's car was running fine as well, but wold try to shut down on him while engine braking. His rpm's would randomly drop to zero, then come right back up.

Mine isn't exhibiting any of those symptoms

[Erich]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Brandon's car was running fine as well, but wold try to shut down on him while engine braking. His rpm's would randomly drop to zero, then come right back up.

You sure he properly aligned the crank sensor when he replaced it?

Another unrelated question. Have an issue with first. It goes pig rich (low 9's and even into the 8's sometimes) and bogs when you go wot. I have seen a couple of people talk about having this issue but no solutions. Happens rarely in 2 nd as well.

Pressure Based tune using a COBB 102 map for the base
Happens both with (the WGDC/boost table zeroed... 16psi spring in WG and hit 16 PSI boost pretty much dead on) and (small values (some 1's and 2's) in the wgdc table and tapering up to 18PSI in the boost table)
Have adjusted the TRL 1st gear table with low load, high load, load to follow torque curve
Adjusted other load tables as well in different combinations with TRL first gear changes
Adjusted Requested AFR and Fuel pressure
Adjusted timing to try and achieve different spool times

All of the above in many different combinations all with seemingly no result. Also, no boost leaks that I can find (and I have been over that several times.) Any ideas?

Edit to add: You can keep it from doing this using less throttle, but setting the 1st gear APP table to only go to say 20% at 100 doesn't help either (was just testing this to see what would happen.)

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Erich You sure he properly aligned the crank sensor when he replaced it? Another unrelated question. Have an issue with first. It goes pig rich (low 9's and even into the 8's sometimes) and bogs when you go wot. I have seen a couple of people talk about having this issue but no solutions. Happens rarely in 2 nd as well. Pressure Based tune using a COBB 102 map for the base Happens both with (the WGDC/boost table zeroed... 16psi spring in WG and hit 16 PSI boost pretty much dead on) and (small values (some 1's and 2's) in the wgdc table and tapering up to 18PSI in the boost table) Have adjusted the TRL 1st gear table with low load, high load, load to follow torque curve Adjusted other load tables as well in different combinations with TRL first gear changes Adjusted Requested AFR and Fuel pressure Adjusted timing to try and achieve different spool times All of the above in many different combinations all with seemingly no result. Also, no boost leaks that I can find (and I have been over that several times.) Any ideas? Edit to add: You can keep it from doing this using less throttle, but setting the 1st gear APP table to only go to say 20% at 100 doesn't help either (was just testing this to see what would happen.)

It's DSC or SWAS, make sure DSC is off, and disconnect the SWAS sensor connector.




Brandon marked the old crank sensor before swapping, and even if it was off as much as 1 to 2 degrees...... i can't imagine it giving him any grief at idle and part throttle (which is now what's happening).

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Erich You sure he properly aligned the crank sensor when he replaced it? Another unrelated question. Have an issue with first. It goes pig rich (low 9's and even into the 8's sometimes) and bogs when you go wot. I have seen a couple of people talk about having this issue but no solutions. Happens rarely in 2 nd as well. Pressure Based tune using a COBB 102 map for the base Happens both with (the WGDC/boost table zeroed... 16psi spring in WG and hit 16 PSI boost pretty much dead on) and (small values (some 1's and 2's) in the wgdc table and tapering up to 18PSI in the boost table) Have adjusted the TRL 1st gear table with low load, high load, load to follow torque curve Adjusted other load tables as well in different combinations with TRL first gear changes Adjusted Requested AFR and Fuel pressure Adjusted timing to try and achieve different spool times All of the above in many different combinations all with seemingly no result. Also, no boost leaks that I can find (and I have been over that several times.) Any ideas? Edit to add: You can keep it from doing this using less throttle, but setting the 1st gear APP table to only go to say 20% at 100 doesn't help either (was just testing this to see what would happen.)

I get the same bog just off idle when mashing on the throttle in 1st and 2nd. Happens maybe 1 out of 10 times so its very hard to troubleshoot. I do keep my SWAS and DSC enabled so maybe that could be it but I am more inclined to believe it is related to the Cobb BT logic and or related to the FFS L2S issue. I don't recall it ever happening on my load tune.

Cobb should release the new ATR soon for the lift to shift issue so I will wait until that comes out before I start to pull my hair out.

[djuosnteisn]

I've seen it in load tunes as well afaik. Whenever traction is lost, AFRs richen up.

I guess it could entirely be shared logic with the shifting thing, since the main purpose of that logic is to avoid driveline thrash.

[Erich]

Will try disconnecting the SWAS. DSC off doesn't help. This isn't from a stop necessarily either. Happens if I get it up over 3500 rpm and then go WOT too... every time in first.

[Dano]

yeah happens to me without even being close to traction loss. its almost tied to tip-in or something else. I can get the clutch out in either 1st or 2nd then start to mash the throttle down say past 1/4 -1/2 throttle [way before WOT] and bam...face plant into steering wheel LOL RPMs in the 2.5-3.5K range

I haven't caught it in a log since I upgraded to the faster logging rate FW but before you couldn't see anything telling in the logs. no rich AFR no pulled timing just a shitty car



in that regard it is NOT like the L2S issue where it was painfully evident in the logs.

I too will remove Sir-Mix-Alot and DSC to see if that helps.

[Erich]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 yeah happens to me without even being close to traction loss. its almost tied to tip-in or something else. I can get the clutch out in either 1st or 2nd then start to mash the throttle down say past 1/4 -1/2 throttle [way before WOT] and bam...face plant into steering wheel LOL RPMs in the 2.5-3.5K range I haven't caught it in a log since I upgraded to the faster logging rate FW but before you couldn't see anything telling in the logs. no rich AFR no pulled timing just a shitty car in that regard it is NOT like the L2S issue where it was painfully evident in the logs. I too will remove Sir-Mix-Alot and DSC to see if that helps.

Big difference for me there. I have seen AFR's into the 8's when it happens. Also, if you keep the pedal down, after .5-1 second it gets through what ever is happening and takes off like nothing was wrong. It is building boost and load while it happens but not speed. Speed/RPM stays constant.