DISI-MZResponse

[Enki]

Heard back from Meziere:

Hi James, The highest flowing electric pump will be our 55gpm WP336s for single outlet or our WP337s for a dual outlet. You will want to use the factory size hoses or larger to help keep the water flow as high as possible. Electric water pumps are not always the best choice for a high HP endurance turbo application. You will need to pay close attention to the coolant temps at the end of the straight ways. At RPMs about 3000 a mechanical driven pump will create more flow and pump pressure then our 55gpm electric pumps. With the electric pump you will be flowing the same at idle as you will at 6000rpm at the end of a straight away. Often over looked is the pump pressure that a mechanical pump creates. This pressure really help to keep hot spots from developing by forcing water at 20-30 psi into all the tiny areas in the cylinder head casting, The best a 55gpm electric pump will do is around 5psi. We have had some turbo charged drag race team go back to belt driven pumps for this reason, mind you these were 1000+ hp extreme boost level engines. I think with your HP level the 55gpm will work fine for almost everything you plan to do on the street and drag strip, however I would be concerned in road race applications at the end of a straight away were you are at max RPM, HP and boost careful monitoring of temp levels will be necessary.

That said, I think it's still worth trying; there's these guys that seem to be doing well making more power than me using a single 55 GPM pump (youtube link and attached image):

Vette in Silver State Classic

MazdaSpeed Forums Presents: YouTube

MazdaSpeed Forums Presents: YouTube

I might run it without a tstat at first to see how it behaves, and move from there.

Thoughts? Experiences?

@udntknw; I don't have valves in my head but you make a good point. Anyone have some burned up valves laying around?


EDIT:
PAGE 2 IS CAT POST PAGE! Every post must have some kind of SFW cat picture.(no reposts)

[Code Monkey]

Warming up.....

[JgamB]

[Enki]

Originally Posted by JgamB

I'LL ALLOW IT.

[JgamB]

It's seasonal and highly appropriate

[Easter Bunny]

Brian the guy with the MP5 turbo is running an electric water pump. His build thread talks all about how he set the cooling map for it. On my phone or I would find it for you

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny Brian the guy with the MP5 turbo is running an electric water pump. His build thread talks all about how he set the cooling map for it. On my phone or I would find it for you

Here on MSF?

Edit:
Apparently so.
Haltech Generic Duty Map

Edit 2:

MazdaSpeed Forums Presents: YouTube

MazdaSpeed Forums Presents: YouTube

[Code Monkey]

Yes.

[Enki]

Looks like he's running a Mezire 45 Gal/Min Electric pump, and doing fine with that at 400 WHP; the 50-55 should be fine on my configuration too then.

[Enki]

Update:

Originally Posted by Brian MP5T So because mine is controlled by the ECU and there is no thermostat, my car will warm up about 1 Deg / 5 Second from 20 Deg C to 50 Deg C The pump never runs more than 40% Duty under regular driving and when in boost, the engine is colder at the end of a pull than it was before mainly due to the fact that I have the pump ramp up over 10 PSI.

I'm thinking the most important thing he did to make it work as well as it does is he reconfigured the coolant flow to best suit the electric pump (head to block flow, non circulating). I'll have to look into how to do that on the 'Speed, and if needed I can make my own controller.

[Mazdazilla6]

SP63 did make an engine with a silent/sleeper chain. Not really needed IMO and if you're going to go that far to modify it then you're better off with a double roller.

I'd like to see someone make a VVT actuator that can advance and retard the cam.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 SP63 did make an engine with a silent/sleeper chain. Not really needed IMO and if you're going to go that far to modify it then you're better off with a double roller. I'd like to see someone make a VVT actuator that can advance and retard the cam.

What do you mean by silent/sleeper chain?

I'm mostly worried about excessive chain stretch from high rate valve springs + lots of RPM.

[Amnesiac]

Originally Posted by Enki What do you mean by silent/sleeper chain? I'm mostly worried about excessive chain stretch from high rate valve springs + lots of RPM.

Ramsey Products | Silent Chain Fundamentals

This I guess? Had to google

[Enki]

Looks like I'm going to be mapping out our cooling system. I have the head, and udntknw has the block, so that should be enough to get a good idea of how it works/if there's room for improvement.

[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by Enki What do you mean by silent/sleeper chain? I'm mostly worried about excessive chain stretch from high rate valve springs + lots of RPM.

Amnesiac is correct.



They're generally more reliable, stretch less and I think I remember a prof telling them they operate more silently.
Downsides that I see (my views, not necessarily true) are more weight and more friction.

But like it's been said before, I wouldn't worry about stretching the chain. Unless you're really wanting to throw tons of money at it, you should be just fine with a new stock chain.

[Enki]

Couple of updates:
Pablo said he'd sell me a set of 12.8:1 pistons, and his pro-series are just about the same price as what Weisco offers (on the SP63 site anyways), so I might go with that as it is, as the local trashed block down here might be going out to get re-sleeved soon.

I've asked Pablo about machining requirements for the new chain setup (which is more for peace of mind, as well as actual cost for pistons and the chain setup (since neither are listed).


Also, I've learned quite a bit about our blocks and the cooling system today, but there's still a bunch left to learn. For example, I was not aware that our cylinders are damn near free floating in the block with very little side support inside the case; lots and lots of water jacket area.

I've got quite a bit of mapping done on the cooling system as it pertains to the block, and will be getting pictures of the head to label tomorrow based on what I've learned from the block. What I need now is a shot of an assembled motor sans intake manifold from the front to learn a couple other things.

If anyone knows where to locate one (build thread of a specific person, maybe?) I'd appreciate being pointed in that direction, since my Google-fu has apparently failed me.

[nindoja]

Originally Posted by Enki Couple of updates: Pablo said he'd sell me a set of 12.8:1 pistons, and his pro-series are just about the same price as what Weisco offers (on the SP63 site anyways), so I might go with that as it is, as the local trashed block down here might be going out to get re-sleeved soon. I've asked Pablo about machining requirements for the new chain setup (which is more for peace of mind, as well as actual cost for pistons and the chain setup (since neither are listed). Also, I've learned quite a bit about our blocks and the cooling system today, but there's still a bunch left to learn. For example, I was not aware that our cylinders are damn near free floating in the block with very little side support inside the case; lots and lots of water jacket area. I've got quite a bit of mapping done on the cooling system as it pertains to the block, and will be getting pictures of the head to label tomorrow based on what I've learned from the block. What I need now is a shot of an assembled motor sans intake manifold from the front to learn a couple other things. If anyone knows where to locate one (build thread of a specific person, maybe?) I'd appreciate being pointed in that direction, since my Google-fu has apparently failed me.

I've got one partially disassembled on an engine stand right now. Want me to take a picture tonight? From that angle, only the oil pan, timing cover, and valve cover are off.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by nindoja I've got one partially disassembled on an engine stand right now. Want me to take a picture tonight? From that angle, only the oil pan, timing cover, and valve cover are off.

That would be swell.

[xfeejayx]

Lmk if you can't get it @nindoja;. Got mine in the garage, also.

[udntknw]

What about my profile pic on Facebook? Assembled engine without the intake manifold on it...

[Enki]

Looking for one with all the hoses and shit in place.

[udntknw]

The hose that's hanging in the picture, that we were looking at last night through the intake manifold is the one that goes to the 90 degree above the thermostat.

[nindoja]

Originally Posted by Enki Looking for one with all the hoses and shit in place.

Oh. I lied. All that stuff is off the engine too, since it had to go on the new engine. @xfeejayx; might be able to hook you up.

[xfeejayx]

Not sure this is any better.
uploadfromtaptalk1443659922739.jpg

[Enki]

Confirms one thing at least.

[Easter Bunny]

Originally Posted by Enki Confirms one thing at least.

Would that be that these cars do in fact like to blow motors since it seems like I am the only one without a spare?

[Brian MP5T]

Subscribble

[xfeejayx]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny Would that be that these cars do in fact like to blow motors since it seems like I am the only one without a spare?

I blew the car. Kept the 125k mile motor because it never missed a beat.

[Enki]

Got a bit curious today and did some real math using VT logs from the last page of my EFR thread (same WGA, different gears); RPM/MPH is rounded but time was calculated for accuracy:

3rd gear (309 TQ @ 5k, 324 HP @ 6.9k):
4000 RPM - 50 MPH | 283 TQ // 215
6500 RPM - 80 MPH | 253 TQ // 313 HP
3.05 seconds

Torque area curve total (4k to 6500):
4035 over 14 points (288.21 average)
1748.74 average curve axle torque (gearing corrected)


4th gear (369 TQ @ 4.4k, 365 HP @ 6k):
3200 RPM - 50 MPH | 290 TQ // 176 HP
5100 RPM - 80 MPH | 353 TQ // 342 HP
3.49 seconds

Torque area curve total (3200 to 5100):
3815 over 11 points
346.81 average under the curve
1598.72 average curve axle torque (gearing corrected)

3rd gear is 12.61% (.45 seconds) faster from 50 to 80 with 16.27%/12.24% less CTQ/CHP but generates 9.38% more axle torque from gearing advantage

Curve axle torque is horribly calculated but probably "close enough;" see attached picture for example.


More importantly:
I SP63 will sell me both the 12.8 pistons (stock cams only) and the quiet drive beast mode timing set (which doesn't require special machining to work, according to Pablo).

[Brian MP5T]

If you plan to do "Endurance" runs at wide open or near to WOT, you will encounter the same thing as these yo-yo's in the corvette.

You may want to look into some sort of series radiator arrangement. You should most definitely shroud the radiator and explore improvements such as relocating the heater core to the engine bay, increasing its size and adding a static pressure fan to it.

Oil cooling the shit out of the motor will also help the water cooling system.

You may need to explore transmission cooling.

[Enki]

The issue the Vette guys had was with the trans temps, not the engine coolant or oil. I'll be upgrading oil cooling for sure as well.

[Enki]

Minor update:

Hello James, Sorry for the super late reply, it’s been crazy over here. We can make whatever crank you want us to make, send the dimensions or a drawing and we will quote it out. Thank you, Alex Gonzalez Crank Sales SCAT Enterprises, Inc.

Anyone have a mechanical drawing/schematic of our crankshaft?

[Mazdazilla6]

I have a crank laying around in the machine shop at school. Like that's any help.

[Enki]

They are very southwest of LA in Redondo Beach. I'll ask if they could use a stock crank to measure from.

[chance91]

Originally Posted by Enki The issue the Vette guys had was with the trans temps, not the engine coolant or oil. I'll be upgrading oil cooling for sure as well.

Which vettes? I know C5s w/the batwing pan typically haven't any engine/oiling issues on track, but Gen IV blocks, LS3s and LS7s, both wet and dry sump, typically run into oil pressure issues causing failure on track in sweeping turns on good tires. Pretty documented, but I think its temperature related failures you are looking for.

Another T56 transmission issue they have is heat/lack of oiling, some people add an oil sprayer to 4th gear set to increase lubrication, usually in conjunction with an external cooler/pump.

You sound like you might have a vette, so you've probably came across that. But lots of them are on tracks, so its always good to hear what fails on these cars, if any of it can correlate.

BTW, on your De-stroke Idea, I was looking at your numbers and surprised to find that the stock stroke at 7,000rpm will travel 4,019FPM, and your 78mm stroke (3.07087in) at 8,000 will be at 4,094, so almost identical. At 8500rpm you are only at 4350Fpm, you may be able to run that safely. I'm interested to see what your final decision is on stroke or redline requirements.

Just finding all this interesting, the Z06 LS7 has a mean piston speed of 4660FPM at 7000rpm, but with a much larger piston dia, titanium rods, very light pistons, etc. Not apples to apples, but an interesting comparison.

Of course, another likely comparison is the F20C, now that your stroke is 3.071", the Honda F20c is 3.3" and still manages a 9200RPM redline, or 5060FPM, which is pretty strung out. Light weight everything would be a necessity, as in the F20c. Just interesting comparisons.

All those numbers are Mean piston speed, (StrokexRPM)/6.

Kind of interested if you had tried running calculations of maximum head flow (with your new cams/lift) with boost compared to RPM requirements as well? Never tried this with a boosted motor, would be interesting to try and calculate.

** I ran the numbers using SP63's flow numbers here for stock and ported @.050" lift, and came up with peak HP at 7839 on the stock 220cfm. With his 310 CFM (or more importantly 220-280 at much less lift) you are over 9,000 so irrelevant. Using your engine bore/stroke specs. That's really rough numbers, I'm betting there are better calc's out there. I'd bet you'll be able to make peak power over 8,000 if all works out well. I'm also betting you knew all that, thus the project!

[anavrinIV]

Originally Posted by Enki Minor update: Anyone have a mechanical drawing/schematic of our crankshaft?

I have a 3D model I made in SolidWorks but it's not 100% accurate. I have the crank I modeled sitting on my desk, it has a small score on one of the journals but otherwise is good. It's yours for the price of shipping if you're interested, otherwise it's likely going in a scrap metal heap somewhere.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by chance91 Which vettes? I know C5s w/the batwing pan typically haven't any engine/oiling issues on track, but Gen IV blocks, LS3s and LS7s, both wet and dry sump, typically run into oil pressure issues causing failure on track in sweeping turns on good tires. Pretty documented, but I think its temperature related failures you are looking for.

If you read my post, you'd know I was talking about cooling efficiency at sustained high rpm when using an electric water pump. This has nothing to do with oiling or oil system failures.

Originally Posted by chance91 You sound like you might have a vette, so you've probably came across that.

Honestly, I have no clue why you'd think this.

Originally Posted by chance91 BTW, on your De-stroke Idea, I was looking at your numbers and surprised to find that the stock stroke at 7,000rpm will travel 4,019FPM, and your 78mm stroke (3.07087in) at 8,000 will be at 4,094, so almost identical. At 8500rpm you are only at 4350Fpm, you may be able to run that safely. I'm interested to see what your final decision is on stroke or redline requirements.

You're changing the RPM so your "almost identical" statement is completely irrelevant. I'm also debating between 78mm (1.88 liters) and 83.1mm (2.0 liters) and still need to compare breathing and turbo efficiency between the two before I decide which one I really want the most.

Originally Posted by chance91 All those numbers are Mean piston speed, (StrokexRPM)/6.

...Which doesn't factor in the change in average velocity imparted by the rod ratio (1.99:1 for 83.1 stroke, 2.19:1 for 78mm stroke

Originally Posted by anavrinIV I have a 3D model I made in SolidWorks but it's not 100% accurate. I have the crank I modeled sitting on my desk, it has a small score on one of the journals but otherwise is good. It's yours for the price of shipping if you're interested, otherwise it's likely going in a scrap metal heap somewhere.

Price check for shipping that crank (~50 lbs) to 90278?

[chance91]

Originally Posted by Enki You're changing the RPM so your "almost identical" statement is completely irrelevant. I'm also debating between 78mm (1.88 liters) and 83.1mm (2.0 liters) and still need to compare breathing and turbo efficiency between the two before I decide which one I really want the most. ...Which doesn't factor in the change in average velocity imparted by the rod ratio (1.99:1 for 83.1 stroke, 2.19:1 for 78mm stroke

I changed RPM and rod stroke to compare the Mean piston speed of a stock rod engine to your shorter rod engine at relevant Relines, to see how much faster/slower the piston would be traveling, on average.

Basically, a shorter rod at 8000rpm has a very similar mean speed to the 94mm rod at 7000rpm. This is a simple but relevant comparison.

I'm hoping you share some of the more complex calculations for this motor with us, interested in your rod choice and head/cam work for your end goals.

[Enki]

Who said anything about shorter rods (pretty sure the stock rods are 154.51mm already, giving a ratio of 1.64:1)? Also, your prior post mentions nothing about factoring in rod ratio/length into your mean speed calculations (and higher rod ratios DO reduce piston speeds, though I'm unsure if it reduces just peak or peak + mean). While they might not make THAT much of a difference it is something to be aware of.

I did a quick modeling of our engines using a 2.4l old as fuck Chevy I4 block and tried to get as factual as possible, though I don't know the deck height of either our or this block. The results are as follows, and I don't believe take into account rod to stroke ratio:

Mean Piston Speeds:

Stock (94mm):
6k: 3700
7k: 4317
8k: 4933

2.0L (83.1mm):
6k: 3270
7k: 3815
8k: 4360

1.88L (78mm):
6k: 3070
7k: 3582
8k: 4093


As a side note, I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned that I'll be using stock cams and valves but will be trying to lighten up the valvetrain a bit to reduce high RPM stresses vs going custom cams (which probably won't work with the really high compression pistons).

Because of the destroke effectively upsizing the head, I'll only be getting some bowl on the intake and possibly full exhaust work/gasket matching on the hotside to maximize high RPM flow without sacrificing too much velocity on the bottom end (and making drivability terrible).

[Enki]

Did some more fucking around with numbers, which probably won't mean anything in reality but are interesting to look at:


(MPS = Mean Piston Speed)

Stock:
Peak TQ: 4500 RPM; 2775 MPS
Peak HP: 6000 RPM; 3700 MPS
Powerband: 1500 RPM

Destroke 2.0L:
Peak TQ: ~5050 RPM; 2775 MPS
Peak HP: ~6750 RPM; 3700 MPS
Powerband: 1700 RPM

Destroke 1.88L:
Peak TQ: ~5400 RPM; 2775 MPS
Peak HP: ~7250 RPM; 3700 MPS
Powerband: 1850 RPM

This makes me want to run the 1.88 liter by default; Matchbot says that this setup will have 12 PSI reversion @ 8k RPM with 21 PSI boost vs 24 psi reversion @ 7500 RPM with 24 PSI boost. The listed power difference is 581 CHP (before reversion) vs

Also, my best MAF voltage was 4.3v on a 3.5" intake which comes out to about 380 g/s; I'm seeing another DISI-MZR claim about 480 g/s on a t25 EFR 7163 (which I will be getting) so the larger 7163 definitely flows more on the hotside as well as the cold side. With enough meth (might need to run more due to fueling window closing at high RPM), I should easily break 400 WHP; this doesn't even factor in the increased efficiency from lower piston speeds and the significant bump in compression (which in and of itself might be good for 30 WHP or more).

Below is a Perrin comparison of my current turbo vs the 7163 in spool and power holding capability; the car is an 06 STI.

Power holding:


Boost curve:



And EFR7163 vs GTX3076R:

Power holding:


Boost curve: