Drivers attempt at E85

[socks]

well, dont forget that i also had 8.8:1 pistons.

the power increase was something like 360whp to 394whp, but im pretty sure that was after all the other optimization was done like fueling and fuel pressure, etc.

i could be remembering this wrong, it was almost a year ago.

[djuosnteisn]

Sean had 8.8 : 1 compression as well, which probably helped with that much timing and no meth.


When you start adding timing, the power will pick up real fast.... but eventually, it'll plateau. That plateau will last for a surprising amount of further advance... until you finally blow up the motor (rod usually). When i was tuning my car i was up to like 19 degrees (plateau started around 16 ish), on 91 octane and 50/50 wmi. I had no active knock sensor at those rpms so i decided it was only stupid to push it further. But i never saw any signs of detonation... just no more signs of power.

[socks]

yea, we saw it plateau around 20. jason (the tuner) said he had run as high as 27* on robbies car with no additional gains, so we stuck to 19-20*

[NJSPEED3]

Cant wait to see what 50% and a dyno comparison show, good stuff Anthony!

[rodrigo]

pish posh, enough tuning..lets see you run already anthony..i got $50 on you cracking 11s b4 anyone else

[driver311]

19-20 huh! I dont see why my setup on 50% e85 couldnt handle that. I will play with it on the dyno when I go here soon. This tank is about gone so Im gonna add another gallon of e85 to my tank and see how it likes it. Even if I cant go farther than 25% e85, I will continue to run it. Car seems to like it and it gives me a little more peace of mind knowing my octane is around 96. 50% would have me over 100 octane. e85 is only 2.50 a gallon here in boise so at .80 cents cheaper than 93 octane, the mileage I lose will be countered by price difference. Im pretty excited about it. LOL

Originally Posted by lenny127 pish posh, enough tuning..lets see you run already anthony..i got $50 on you cracking 11s b4 anyone else

Thats if I can get to sacramento soon enough. I see alot of guys right on the threshold. I hope to be the first 3 atleast. Would be fitting i was the first in the 12s. LOL

[cageyvet]

Just use the e85 to lean the car even more.

[Dano]

Anthony, you still running without meth?

seems to me meth is a better way but what do I know...you are using gas 100% of the time whereas meth only at WOT...

Does meth not add more octane/cooling than an e85 mix.

not hating over here just axing.

[driver311]

From what Ive seen over in the evo community, they can push e85 far past water/meth injection. I dont know from experience but I definately havent seen any of you guys do anything special on meth but clean your motor. LOL

Just teasin, I know meth can do cool things past straight pump but I can get e85 right at pump and its way cheap. And all I know is everyone of my friends that have switched from meth to e85 is pushing there tuning way farther and detonation is non existent. From what I understand its damn near impossible to detontate on straight e85.

[superskaterxes]

does E85 have a much lower stoich? you should adjust your AFR accordingly to maximize power/fuel economy......

[bmylez]

Yeah, stoich for E85 is more like 6:1.

[Dano]

Hater. Meth hater that is. LOL

[Dano]

Originally Posted by driver311 I dont know from experience but I definately havent seen any of you guys do anything special on meth but clean your motor. LOL

Well I went from 14* advance at 6.5K on 100% meth to barely 11* advance without...now I know 14 aint nothing special but I lost 3* of total advance and ~4* in the 4-5.5 range.

jussayin

signed

E85 hater LOL

[driver311]

I run 14 degrees on straight pump gas no problem.

[Dano]

Well I guess my car just sucks. Haha

[djuosnteisn]

Indeed e85 has a lower stoich point... but AFAIK the o2 sensor reads in labda... in terms of stoich, regardless what that ratio may be. So whenever it's reporting 14.7... it's basically just saying, "the mixture it stoich".



The only reason it says 14.7 is cause mazda figures people will be running gasoline.

[kylemzspd3@gmail.com]

Ive been running 93oct mixed 50/50 with 110leaded racegas. and its beautiful. everybody is scared but gas is f**king gas.......just dont put 87. lol. leaded gas just burns dirty thus failing cats and 02 sensors. other then that. up the f**kin timing n quit crying. wana go fast? experiment.....i never posted it, cause who wants to hear discouragement? anyway. point is dont be afraid ppl.

[Matt]

I like the sounds of this. So, you guys running e85, any fears of fuel line degradation or excessive CDFP wear?

My only concern would be ending up in the middle of nowhere someday with only 91 octane gas available. If it happened to also be a hot day your ECU would be pissed. Creating separate maps for such an occasion would be ideal.

[bmylez]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Indeed e85 has a lower stoich point... but AFAIK the o2 sensor reads in labda... in terms of stoich, regardless what that ratio may be. So whenever it's reporting 14.7... it's basically just saying, "the mixture it stoich". The only reason it says 14.7 is cause mazda figures people will be running gasoline.

Yeah, the O2 sensor doesn't know the difference. The lambda x 14.7 is built into the sensor, so you can't change that aspect. When tuning for E85, it's best to have the gauge display lambda instead of AFR.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Matt I like the sounds of this. So, you guys running e85, any fears of fuel line degradation or excessive CDFP wear? My only concern would be ending up in the middle of nowhere someday with only 91 octane gas available. If it happened to also be a hot day your ECU would be pissed. Creating separate maps for such an occasion would be ideal.

lol kinda like owning a PTP pump haha

[driver311]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes lol kinda like owning a PTP pump haha

You aint bullshitting, LOL Thats why I keep an extra pump with me at all times now. LOL HOw sad. Hopefully I dont have to use it.

I got one even better for you. Im gonna be putting a ptp rail valve on my car this weekend and try to get my car to hold 2000psi across the board. Ill put that info in its own thread though. God knows how thatll spiral!!!

[mason]

PTP started doing some cool stuff, different stuff that was very needed...... just sucks they went down like that! wish the shit was legit!

[rodrigo]

i just want to say this....


PEEEEEE TEAAAAAAAAAA PEEEEEEEEEE

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by driver311 You aint bullshitting, LOL Thats why I keep an extra pump with me at all times now. LOL HOw sad. Hopefully I dont have to use it. I got one even better for you. Im gonna be putting a ptp rail valve on my car this weekend and try to get my car to hold 2000psi across the board. Ill put that info in its own thread though. God knows how thatll spiral!!!

Hope you have an e-torx bit duct taped to the spare pump, cause you aren't gonna swap that shit out with a leatherman lol.

And ask erich about the rail valve... he's been running one for a while, and is seeing a lil weird stuff...

He was running more pressure than the pressure sensor could even read (maxed out basically), and was actually disrupting the injectors from opening properly, and leaning way the fuck out. He's fine with doin it cause he has a spare motor sitting around, and he's not making anywhere near the power you are (which means less fuel demand).

Just be careful being PTP's "learning" car. Esp if your so concerned about your block. Just cause he gets all excited and talks all loud about how fucking cool his products are, doesn't mean he's thought them through entirely, or tested em out thoroughly. That's essentially what you'll be doing, haha.


But shit... who knows... maybe he's running that valve on his srt...

[driver311]

Sooooo your saying theres a chance???? LOL

Quote the movie????

[zx2man]

Originally Posted by driver311 Sooooo your saying theres a chance???? LOL Quote the movie????

Dumb&Dumber

So How many maps are you running Anthony? I thought you were @20 psi last time I checked, How does Tim feel with e85 on this car?

[driver311]

He doesnt know lol. I have 3 maps. I just posted two vids of me at 18psi and 19psi. I can set me boost where ever I want. My tune allows me to put my boost where ever I want with my mbc and its dialed in.

[Matt]

Apparently there's already some guy in Everette WA that's running 100% E85 at 26.5 PSI on stock internals. He lists his mods as "CS FMIC kit / Turbosmart - BOV , Eboost Street 40 EBC , ProGate 50 EWG / DNP header / CS power catless exhaust w/ a straight cutout in the race pipe / GT3076R / CP-e - Standback 2 , Profuel / Walbro 255 x2 / HKS twin power ignition / water meth kit / SS braided fuel line."

I asked him if he's adding lubricant to the fuel, but he doesn't have very much info yet. He's having MSP in Arlington WA (Subie shop) build the car while he's deployed in Iraq.

[zx2man]

Originally Posted by driver311 He doesnt know lol. I have 3 maps. I just posted two vids of me at 18psi and 19psi. I can set me boost where ever I want. My tune allows me to put my boost where ever I want with my mbc and its dialed in.

Haha...Yeah Father Tim tends to be a conservative man,only because he cares about his customer's cars alot. But sometimes I feel like he is overly conservative with the ms3/6 platform.

nice to see you trying new things There is shell station near by with e-85, might have to give it a shot.

[NJSPEED3]

Anthony any updates homie?

[jracer]

Originally Posted by driver311 He doesnt know lol. I have 3 maps. I just posted two vids of me at 18psi and 19psi. I can set me boost where ever I want. My tune allows me to put my boost where ever I want with my mbc and its dialed in.

what kinda MBC do you use ?

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by 240mazspd3 so the fuel system doesnt need to be modded running 50/50 mix or lower?

Correct. your stock fuel system is completely safe running a a 50/50 E85 & Premium fuel mix.

Originally Posted by Lex My biggest concern is how the friction parts will take the alcohol. Injectors, CDFP, cylinder walls etc. ....Just don't let the car sit for too long, ethanol fuel separates after a while.

^ That is not a concern. As of the inception of OBDII cars, Manufacturers were required to build fuel systems and engines capable of handling and adapting to the ethanol which is added to all forms of gasoline in both winter and summer mixes.(summer depending on location)

Chemically, ethanol is really no more corrosive than gasoline, meaning it's not. Both are solvents and not an acid -

as for ethanol fuel seperation - its as common as premium fuel seperation. basically, cars can sit for a very long time before that happens. with as frequently as you drive your car (probably a DD) you may never experience that.

Originally Posted by Darksun280 fuel lines on most cars have to be changed not sure why you MS3 owners would be any different.

FALSE.

modern fuel lines in all cars post 1990 are capable of handling ethanol fuels- PER manufacturer requirements. replacing a fuel line with an upgraded line such as stainless is something some folks do for peace of mind - but speaking of mind - keep in mind that even stainless lines have fuel tubing / rubber inner linings.. again capable of handling E85.

Originally Posted by Haltech All you need to lubricate the alc in the fuel system is 1 cap full of marvels mystery oil per gallon of E85.

FALSE.

though a novel idea, E85 is STILL 15% Premium gasoline. that 15% is left in there for a reason: lubrication for parts that need it.. fuel pumps etc.

Originally Posted by Click Here I think ethanol does have some benefits even without any tuning. Whether these power advantages are measurable in practice, I guess is a different question... 1. Ethanol has less energy than gas does per volume, but when mixed at a stoich ratio the ethanol mixture is going to release more energy by about 5% over gasoline. 2. Ethanol generates lower exhaust gas temperatures as compared to gas, and also increases the total exhaust volume, which can be particularly beneficial for turbos. 3. Ethanol's evaporative cooling advantage is only amplified by the high-pressure DI system, which can cool the air charge and ultimately increase VE. 4. Ethanol burns much more efficiently (faster) at richer mixtures than gas does. 5. Ethanol's initial burn time is much slower than gasoline which reduces the amount of negative work done on the piston at the end of the compression stroke. And I think what Driver is doing is bad ass.

^ that is absolutely correct. Additionally, E85's natural octane rating is 105. so as is, it has an octatne rating similar to 100 octane racing fuel. where E85 really shines is its inherent cooling properties.. through its cooling effects on the head's and combustion chamber E85 runs much like 116 Octane - much like Sunoco's 116 octane racing fuel. Many tuners running 100% E85 are maxing exact power levels as they are with 116 Octane race gas. The difference being in the price. 116 can be INCREDIBLY expensive sometimes as much as 10-20 dollars a gallon depending on location. - E85 is 2 bucks a gallon.

basically, many folks in the know consider it cheap race gas from the pump.

Originally Posted by Stealth01 I thought that about ten years ago, all fuel systems were required to be able to handle ethanol, since it is put in most gasoline, often as much as 10% during the summer months?

Stealth is correct. as i previously mentioned, fuel systems were brought up to speed and designed to be able to handle Ethanol fuels in the 1990's. Many times, that ethanol is added in the Winter months however.

Sounds like Stealth may know his stuff.

Originally Posted by Darksun280 I always thought the fuel pumps had to be different but now I learned the stock ones are ok. So now its a matter of Driver feeling frisky and throwing 25 Degrees of timing at the car. Good luck who knows how this car reacts to high timing.

Yes. the stock fuel pump can handle ethanol fuel. However, often the pump is upraded to support applications which require high fuel flow.

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Also e85 will fuck up the HPFP it's just not an instant thing. I doubt even with in 2 years would you see the effect of it not lubricating the piston properly but then again that fucker rev's at an insane speed so wear might show quicker than i expect.

Fuel pumps have gone, but they have also failed under normal Premium gasoline use too. but consider this- many folks running E85 in their high WHP application EVO's STi's Porsches, BMW's and GT-R's are using pumps for 5 years at a time without failure. Additionally, Deatchwerks now makes a pump specifically designed for E85 use - negating the arguement that E85 kills fuel pumps. Besides, even if it were to kill pumps, a Walboro 225lph pump costs 90 bucks. if it fails in 5 years - thats 18 dollars a year in fuel pump costs. or 0.04 cents per day.




hope that helps to set the E85 record straight. It seems there is quite a bit of aprehension on this board against E85, which really is a shame- considering it can make more power than Meth injection systems (without fear of a meth injection system hiccup) , its Knock proof, and it's basically like race fuel that costs $2.30 a gallon.

[madvillain]

For what its worth, I added two gallons of e85 with a tank of regular gas, and a bit of marvels oil, and the car is just as slow as ever.

[driver311]

Thats what Im talking bout. Thanks for breaking it down. The shits legit for real. Just takes more than internet racers to know that. LOL

My first tank was 2.5 gallons and no issues. This tank was 3 gallons and car runs just as good. Next tank will be 3.5 gallons. im gonna slowly work my way up and make adjustments as needed. But thus far none have been needed. Car is just straight up ripping.

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by madvillain For what its worth, I added two gallons of e85 with a tank of regular gas, and a bit of marvels oil, and the car is just as slow as ever.

^ slaps forhead.


you will not see a power gain from 2 gallons of e85 mixed with your fuel. you'll add a touch of knock protection, but gains in power while running a race fuel or E85 come from added timing and addtional boost - From tuning.

[driver311]

Originally Posted by jracer what kinda MBC do you use ?

Turbosmart but looking to experiment with hallman pro. My car didnt have any spikes when temps were above 50 degrees but now that its cold it spikes a few when i shift. I doubt the hallman will fix that. Its just the nature of the beast(cold weather)

[Matt]

Originally Posted by EnigmaOperator hope that helps to set the E85 record straight. It seems there is quite a bit of aprehension on this board against E85, which really is a shame- considering it can make more power than Meth injection systems (without fear of a meth injection system hiccup) , its Knock proof, and it's basically like race fuel that costs $2.30 a gallon.

Good post. Thanks!

Unfortunately we DI guys need the meth injection anyway to keep our intake valves from caking.

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by Matt Good post. Thanks! Unfortunately we DI guys need the meth injection anyway to keep our intake valves from caking.

Keep in mind that E85's denatured fuel ethanol works to clean the intake system and combustion chamber very much like a methanol does.


not only does it make power, it cleans as it does it.


also, a can of BG 44k once every 6 months is also an effective cleaner

[ms3brendan]

Sub'ddddddd. Very interested.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by EnigmaOperator Keep in mind that E85's denatured fuel ethanol works to clean the intake system and combustion chamber very much like a methanol does. not only does it make power, it cleans as it does it. also, a can of BG 44k once every 6 months will mitigate any caking for ya.

The difference is where the injection takes place. What you're talking about is Port injection, which cleans the intake valves/ports all by itself. With Direct Injection the fuel never sees the intake side of the valves or ports. This is why meth injection is pretty much necessary to limit the HP losses from caking.