Drivers attempt at E85

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by madvillain For what its worth, I added two gallons of e85 with a tank of regular gas, and a bit of marvels oil, and the car is just as slow as ever.

^ slaps forhead.


you will not see a power gain from 2 gallons of e85 mixed with your fuel. you'll add a touch of knock protection, but gains in power while running a race fuel or E85 come from added timing and addtional boost - From tuning.

[ms3brendan]

Sub'ddddddd. Very interested.

[EnigmaOperator]

here's a bit more info for you fellas.
(pulled from a very good source- so i dont have to re-type it all)


It is strange to say that E85 produces more effective power than Gasoline when it has less energy per volume - many people dont understand why. This post will be an attempt to explain how we can achieve more power from a fuel with less energy.

First, let’s discuss the energy contained in each fuel. Gasoline has a stored potential energy of roughly 114,000 BTU per gallon. E85 has a stored potential of roughly 81,800 BTU per gallon. This means we need to use about 30% more E85 to equate to the same energy potential of gasoline. To do this we increase our fuel injector size and adjust scaling to pump about 30% more fuel into the engine. This pretty much closes the gap regarding potential energy from one fuel to the other but there is more to it. See Item 3 below.

Power advantages and effects of using E85 over Gasoline.

1.) The most prevalent benefit is that E85 has a significantly higher octane than gasoline sold at the pump. This allows your tuner to tune aggressively in regards to timing and boost. For example when tuning boost on a 93 map, one would usually need to dial back the timing to compensate for knock. With E85, one can tune aggressively for boost and maintain the same timing level, or even increase them more. It is realistic to have no knock at boost levels exceeding 30psi coupled with an efficient turbo and still maintain high timing values. However this doesn't mean that we can just up the timing through out the load/rpm range and call it a tune. The MBT timing for E85 is about the same for gas in the low and mid load/rpm range but is a bit more advanced in the WOT regions. The best way to tune for this is on a dyno.

2.) Also the alcohol in E85 has a HUGE cooling property associated with it as well. E85 has similar cooling properties you find with Water Meth injection. A cooler charge = a denser charge. A denser charge = more Air/Fuel. More Air/Fuel = more power.

The cooling effect comes when the fuel is mixed with the incoming charge due to the evaporative relationship between the fuel and the charge and with the relationship between the dry-bulb temperature and wet-bulb temperature. The farther apart these two number are the more cooling effect occurs. Evaporative cooling is a property in which evaporation of a liquid into surrounding air cools an object or a fluid in contact with it. In this case it is the air stream itself.

You can feel this effect on a hot summer day. you can perform a little experiment to see just how this works. On a nice hot day poor a little water on your arm and blow on it. You will observe your arm to feel much cooler. Now poor a little whiskey on your arm and blow. You will now observe that the cooling effect is much greater still. This is due to the difference in evaporation rate between water and ethanol.

You might be thinking that the cooling effect can't be better than meth because the mixing of fuel and charge is so close to the combustion. This is not so much the case for two good reasons...

- The first is because the evaporation rate of Ethanol is significantly greater than the evaporation rate of Methanol and can cool the charge at a much greater rate. The cooling phenomenon is felt more with ethanol even though it has a short path to travel. These evaporative properties are greatly increase due to the air velocity and turbulence at the valve. When the charge transfers from the low volume chamber in the head to the high volume chamber of the cylinder, the cooling effect is amplified.

- When meth is injected, it's cooling effects begin immediately but are reduced as the charge absorbs heat energy along the intake path.

3.) There is a fair increase in exhaust load and energy output because you are increasing the amount of thermal energy per pound of air consumed and though a specific volume of E85 has less energy than the same volume of gasoline, you can see by the math below that the energy output of the intake charge, consisting of fuel combined with air, is greater than gasoline...

Thermal energy of Gas = 19,000 BTU/lb
Thermal energy of E85 = 13,475 BTU/lb

Lets assume a consumption of air @ 100lbs/hr

100lbs/hr / 14.7 AFR = 6.802 lbs/hr of gasoline @ 19,000 BTU/lb = 129,238 BTU @ Lambda of 1
100lbs/hr / 9.76 AFR = 10.246 lbs/hr of E85 @ 13,475 BTU/lb = 138,065 BTU @ Lambda of 1

So you can see that the final thermal energy output is greater even though E85 has less energy per volume due to the fact that we are using more of it per pound of air. Ultimately this will increase the cylinder pressure thereby increasing the exhaust load effecting the potential for quicker spool.


Cheers.

hope that helps.

[driver311]

On a side note I have two friends that run e85 and have compared it several times in their high hp evos to the likes of sunoco 110 all the way to q16 and it would suprise you with the results. Hands down better than sunoco 110 and runs right up there with q16. Problem is q16 is 20 plus a gallon and e85 is like 2.50. LOL

[EnigmaOperator]

^ correct.


E85 runs nearly identically to q16.

which is why we say "cheap race gas from the pump"

E85 is legit for so many reasons.

[driver311]

Originally Posted by EnigmaOperator ^ correct. E85 runs nearly identically to q16. which is why we say "cheap race gas from the pump" E85 is legit for so many reasons.

Thank you for breaking it down with actual facts. I just knew it worked but not how it actually worked. LOL Ive seen it over and over again and knew this platform would be no different. My buddy ran it in his turbo cobalt ss and gained huge just running 50/50. Like 40whp just from puttin it in and upping his tune. I had to get a taste of that. LOL

[Dano]

* sigh * if only we had e85 here...its like a 30 minute drive to the nearest station.

[EnigmaOperator]

glad to provide some acutal fact on the stuff, rather than speculation, misinformation and guessing-

You're on the right track driver311,

just know (and seems like you do) that the power comes from proper tuning for the fuel, rather than just adding it to your tank.

[forcedinduktion]

stepping up the bar man

[IshiKage]

so its cool just to throw e85 in the tank? i mean, i know you need to tune to take advantage of it, fully. but its cool to do even on stock tune from what im reading? fuel doesnt need to be lubed or anything? will there be any benefits at all on stock tune whether cleaning, better fuel economy, power, anything?

thanks for the break down, Enigma

[zx2man]

Originally Posted by 240mazspd3 so its cool just to throw e85 in the tank? i mean, i know you need to tune to take advantage of it, fully. but its cool to do even on stock tune from what im reading? fuel doesnt need to be lubed or anything? will there be any benefits at all on stock tune whether cleaning, better fuel economy, power, anything? thanks for the break down, Enigma

^^^^ yeah good question. Id love to add 50/50 mix and make power on my current Tim Bailey 17 psi 92oct pump gas tune.


Down the road when I get my new 3071 turbo setup installed&tuned, Id love for Tim to make me a e85 map on my AP.

[driver311]

Originally Posted by 240mazspd3 so its cool just to throw e85 in the tank? i mean, i know you need to tune to take advantage of it, fully. but its cool to do even on stock tune from what im reading? fuel doesnt need to be lubed or anything? will there be any benefits at all on stock tune whether cleaning, better fuel economy, power, anything? thanks for the break down, Enigma

Do a small amount at a time. Im 20% right now and its working great. My tune from Tim is still spot on. stft and ltft are great as well as afr. Sooo ya. Im sure i will need to make small changes once i get a lil more in there. But even 20% helps alot.

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by 240mazspd3 so its cool just to throw e85 in the tank? i mean, i know you need to tune to take advantage of it, fully. but its cool to do even on stock tune from what im reading? fuel doesnt need to be lubed or anything? will there be any benefits at all on stock tune whether cleaning, better fuel economy, power, anything? thanks for the break down, Enigma

The ideal way to run any fuel is to tune for that specific fuel. However, with that said, much like others in this thread, you can add E85 to your mix. What this will do for you is add knock resistance, add a bit of intake charge cooling, and help with cleaning valvetrain deposits much like methanol does. NOW- keep in mind.. the smartest way to do this "Mix and Drive" method is with some datalogging and some know how as to what your engine parameters are and what they mean. 311 is doing this the smart way by keeping an eye on his Accessport (fantastic tuning tool btw).

His careful eye and attention to detail is key. Without an E85 specific tune, there is a potential mix level where it would not be a benefit to run E85, because the car's ECU simply isnt mapped for it. 311 is finding that increasing mix levels seem to take nicely with the Mazdaspeed Engine.. my guess is he'll find that a 50/50 mix is good.. but that remains to be seen..

Also- finally some golden day, when some of you MS3 owners get a full E85 tune on the dyno with - 100% E85 it is going to be a real eye opener. Theres nothing like an E85 / racegas tune

cheers

[NJSPEED3]

very exciting stuff happening here!! keep it up Anthony I hope this works

[rodrigo]

googling e85 stations in socal.............

lets see if lenny can pull fo hunduh

[zx2man]

Originally Posted by lenny127 googling e85 stations in socal............. lets see if lenny can pull fo hunduh

Haha hell yeah Lenny

I found a Shell station like 3 miles away, so Im golden with e85.

Thanks Anthony, sounds like your making progress. Another question..do we need bigger injectors like the Subie and gtr guys? are because were disi, its different.

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by zx2man Another question..do we need bigger injectors like the Subie and gtr guys? are because were disi, its different.

ZX- im glad you brought this up.


To run 100% E85, the general rule of thumb is that you need approx 30% more fueling to support a full - shall i say- maximum tune on the Corn gas.


With the Evo, Subie, GT-R crowd, they are lucky enough to have a large range of aftermarket injector solutions to support additional fueling.

The direct injected DISI IS different, but dont worry, that does not mean you're SOL.

the one recommendation i would make is to upgrade your fuel pump to a Walboro 255 or a Deatchwerks 300lph pump. what thats going to do is provide the proper fuel flow to keep your direct injected DISI system happy - a system that requires high fuel pressure to flow properly.

Then, based on proper fuel delivery, you're DISI system should hold up to E85 tuning quite nicely -- and heres why:

Every injector size has its limits.. but with that said, it doesnt matter what you spray through it.. be it Premium, Methanol, Ethanol, E85 etc..

if a DISI direct injector is capable of flowing say.. 500cc's / min (just a rough guess i dont know that spec off the top of my head) it wont matter what its spraying, it will max out at 500cc's/min .. SO, no matter what fuel you run you will theoretically find a maximum threshold for the DISI injection system.

follow where im going with this-?

with a proper E85 tune, you're going to make more power. on an Evo, STi, GT-R etc.. say you max the stock injectors out. no prob, you can tune for that injector. Replace that injector with a larger capacity unit, boom- you now have the ability to make even greater power.. but with that said.. you dont absolutely have to upgrade that injector- its simply a limiting factor- not a game ending hurdle. you can STILL tune for that original smaller injector and make damn fine power. - Thus, with the DISI system you will find that you CAN tune for it, but you may find the limits of the system, maybe not.

I can tell you this as well- there are MS3 and MS6 owners making some serious power on Pump gas tunes. that alone tells you one thing - making more power requires more fuel delivery. Thus those guys are pumping more fuel than the STOCK system normally outputs. The system is proven to be flexible, AND capable in that nature - its capable of pumping more fuel.

SO- its capable of pumping more E85. you WILL make big power on a proper Tune. you might just find that you are restricted by the DISI system.. and the same would apply with a Pump gas tune.

when / if someone starts to make upgraded injecting solutions for the DISI platform, it will simply increase your abilites to make even more power.


- Enigma

[bf360]

The car did gain power just by adding e85, he did not tune for the change, and by simply adding ethanol it will make you run leaner, for him he went .5 point leaner and probably accounted for some if not most of the power gain. Ethanol requires a larger amount of fuel to equal the same energy as gas.

The point about all cars being ethanol safe is incorrect, all cars in the us have to be ethanol safe, but not the percentage that e70-e98 will have. It may be fine in some cars while others there may be problems, it wont show up instantly but over time it can. An example of this is the evo x, which the fuel pump sock has to be changed as it isn't e85 safe, however the evo viii/ix sock is safe. The fuel filter or sock can not be a paper element. The x also has to change the fuel pump line connecting to the in-tank.

EnigmaOperator, darksun was referring to the cdfp fuel pump, which is different from the intake fuel pump you are thinking of.

Originally Posted by EnigmaOperator The ideal way to run any fuel is to tune for that specific fuel. However, with that said, much like others in this thread, you can add E85 to your mix. What this will do for you is add knock resistance, add a bit of intake charge cooling, and help with cleaning valvetrain deposits much like methanol does. NOW- keep in mind.. the smartest way to do this "Mix and Drive" method is with some datalogging and some know how as to what your engine parameters are and what they mean. 311 is doing this the smart way by keeping an eye on his Accessport (fantastic tuning tool btw). His careful eye and attention to detail is key. Without an E85 specific tune, there is a potential mix level where it would not be a benefit to run E85, because the car's ECU simply isnt mapped for it. 311 is finding that increasing mix levels seem to take nicely with the Mazdaspeed Engine.. my guess is he'll find that a 50/50 mix is good.. but that remains to be seen.. Also- finally some golden day, when some of you MS3 owners get a full E85 tune on the dyno with - 100% E85 it is going to be a real eye opener. Theres nothing like an E85 / racegas tune cheers

ive seen you say about cleaning valvetrain deposits multiple times, and you keep missing the point that these cars are direct injected, the fuel goes directly into the cylinder, running e85 will not clean your head like meth would.

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by bf360 The fuel filter or sock can not be a paper element. The x also has to change the fuel pump line connecting to the in-tank. EnigmaOperator, darksun was referring to the cdfp fuel pump, which is different from the intake fuel pump you are thinking of.

Excellent, I'm glad someone else has chimed in on the subject. Good to know.

As far as a paper element sock, that is the 1st ive heard of such a thing. in most cases the sock is a synthetic nylon / composite type material. Paper sock?? - Silly EVO engineers.. should have known better.

easy to change however

- just one more reason the 4G63 is superior to the MIVEC.


Do the MS3-MS6 cars use paper elements? if so, that might be something to consider upgrading. Additionally, you should be changing a fuel filter ever 4 years or 60,000 miles anyway, thus it shouldnt be a game stopper.

[bf360]

Originally Posted by EnigmaOperator Excellent, I'm glad someone else has chimed in on the subject. Good to know. As far as a paper element sock, that is the 1st ive heard of such a thing. in most cases the sock is a synthetic nylon / composite type material. Paper sock?? - Silly EVO engineers.. should have known better. easy to change however - just one more reason the 4G63 is superior to the MIVEC. Do the MS3-MS6 cars use paper elements? if so, that might be something to consider upgrading. Additionally, you should be changing a fuel filter ever 4 years or 60,000 miles anyway, thus it shouldnt be a game stopper.

Its actually the walbro kit that came with the sock, which was a cotton based sock. The stock evo x pump has the oem filter on the inner assembly, which is done away with when you install a walbro.

Originally Posted by EnigmaOperator With that said, i ask you- if you're not running a fuel mixture through your valvetrain - as you kindly mentioned, - in that case, then the only thing flowing through your head would be air - pre filtered through your airfilter.. making intake valve caking a moot point. UNLESS- the DISI's PCV system is recirc'ing a ton of blow-by, - a scenario which could- slowly over years- lead to miniscule & mostly negligible buildup on the intake valves. - and is correctible by something such as a catch-can or Air-Oil separator good point!

There is actually a good amount of build up, another example of the di cars with a lot of build up is the vw's. There heads tend to get really gunked up over time. Meth is still good, even if for the cleaning effects alone.

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by bf360 ive seen you say about cleaning valvetrain deposits multiple times, and you keep missing the point that these cars are direct injected, the fuel goes directly into the cylinder, running e85 will not clean your head like meth would.

With that said, i ask you- if you're not running a fuel mixture through your valvetrain - as you kindly mentioned, - in that case, then the only thing flowing through your head would be air - pre filtered through your airfilter.. making intake valve caking a moot point. UNLESS- the DISI's PCV system is recirc'ing a ton of blow-by, - a scenario which could- slowly over years- lead to miniscule & mostly negligible buildup on the intake valves. - and is correctible by something such as a catch-can or Air-Oil separator

good point!

[Matt]

Originally Posted by EnigmaOperator With that said, i ask you- if you're not running a fuel mixture through your valvetrain - as you kindly mentioned, - in that case, then the only thing flowing through your head would be air - pre filtered through your airfilter.. making intake valve caking a moot point. UNLESS- the DISI's PCV system is recirc'ing a ton of blow-by, - a scenario which could- slowly over years- lead to miniscule & mostly negligible buildup on the intake valves. - and is correctible by something such as a catch-can or Air-Oil separator good point!

Read my previous post (I suspect you missed it). EGR is the main culprit for caking, PCV is probably another additive. DI motors are notorious for caking. Meth injection is the only known solution.

[driver311]

There are no injectors available. We can only take it so far. I think with my cdpf bumped to 1900psi and atr we can get away with 50 50 with no problems. Ill find out soon enough. Not gonna rush it. Wanna go slow and find out where the exact limit is for my car. Once I get there Ill start adding timing and see what the dyno says. Either way even if I dont get farther than 30% e85, Ill keep it in there.

[rodrigo]

any ill effects to running say 25% mix if the datalogs show improvement?? no changing to of hardware necessary?

[zx2man]

I think Enigma is my new man crush. Specialy if that GTR is his car. I give AMAZING head...sorry Lenny, Your not cutting it for me anymore lol

Anyways..awesome information Enigma..and Anthony for his endeavors. If more positive headway is revealed, I will most certainly look into a full 100% e85 tune.

[driver311]

50/50 is plenty for me. My buddy with his disi cobalt made very very good progress but had issues past that with getting enough fuel. So I figure we will see similar issues. Also alot of the srt community runs it that way so you can get away with smaller injectors and dual pump setups. Even at 50% the srt4 guys are getting away with normal 110 octane tunes. Shit is just that good.

[Speeed3]

i wish we had e85 near me

[rodrigo]

im thinking meth, e 85 and a lil nawz just to bring it all together

[Dano]

Originally Posted by lenny127 im thinking meth, e 85 and a lil nawz just to bring it all together

or help you take yours apart...lolololololol

[EnigmaOperator]

yes sir i missed it

Makes perfect sense. EGR systems.. hate em' . gotta love emissions systems


well, theres no negating the cleaning properties of Methanol. For a DISI system, sounds like the perfect solution to intake valvetrain caking . however with that said - there is really one way to find out - start pulling heads on Meth injected cars and non injected cars with simliar miles and compare them

Also of note- Just because you're running E85, as many of you are interested in doing, doesnt mean you cant also run a methanol injection system to mitigate any valve caking worries.

a Properly tuned E85 car with Meth would be a great setup.
(yes you can mix the two) - it has been done, however most of the time people choose one or the other with Port injection systems. however with a DISI system, there is some wisdom in utilizing both.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by EnigmaOperator For a DISI system, sounds like the perfect solution to intake valvetrain caking . however with that said - there is really one way to find out - start pulling heads on Meth injected cars and non injected cars with simliar miles and compare them

It's a pretty big deal. So much so that there's an Audi group in Germany that's pursuing Audi to cover intake valve cleaning under warranty. They've proven 20-30% BHP loss after as little as 20k miles on the 4.2. Sea foam helps, but only for a little while.

I guess my point (question) is whether or not e85 has a considerable advantage over meth (when taking into account that meth is pretty much required for DI to maintain HP gains over time) and/or whether or not e85 + meth is really worth the hassle (I have to drive 20+ miles to get it).

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by Matt It's a pretty big deal. So much so that there's an Audi group in Germany that's pursuing Audi to cover intake valve cleaning under warranty. They've proven 20-30% BHP loss after as little as 20k miles on the 4.2. Sea foam helps, but only for a little while. I guess my point (question) is whether or not e85 has a considerable advantage over meth (when taking into account that meth is pretty much required for DI to maintain HP gains over time) and/or whether or not e85 + meth is really worth the hassle (I have to drive 20+ miles to get it).

Good on the Audi guys to get after a valve cleaning solution. I was thinking seafoam in my head, but sounds like an imperfect solution.

as for your situation, driving 20 miles to get E85 doesnt sound advantageous. if you had a track tune for example, which was an E85 tune u only used at the track, and on those occasions it were worth your effort to drive 20 miles to fill up, then yes. for those who have E85 stations convienently located near them then its absolutely worth it for the gains that can be had. But for a daily driver with no easy access to the Corn Juice Rocket sauce, stick to Meth. Those of us fortunate enough to have several in town can enjoy the beauty of having 2 dollar Race fuel.

[spiker98]

This is awesome. I will have a brand new built motor to try this on..

[driver311]

Thats why i did egr delete and have a cc waiting to go on with check valve. why use meth to patch a problem when you can just fix it??

[jracer]

Originally Posted by driver311 Thats why i did egr delete and have a cc waiting to go on with check valve. why use meth to patch a problem when you can just fix it??

explain on how your doing the block off and what not.. i am thinking of doing it also..

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by driver311 Thats why i did egr delete and have a cc waiting to go on with check valve. why use meth to patch a problem when you can just fix it??

^ Problem solved.

Meth does seem like a solution, but at band-aid fix at most.

EGR systems are pretty low tech. they have been around in some form or another since the early 1980's. who wants to be recirculating previously burnt intake charges ? - (unless of course you're an emissions freak in which case you're in the wrong car)(get a prius )

[driver311]

I just ordered the egr delete from ptp. Its very esy install.

[ms3brendan]

We have ONE E85 station here in Cleveland, OH.. it's about 15 minutes from me.. But I pass by the exit everyday coming home from work.. may have to try 20% next time I get gas.. I've tried 10% already with getting gas at Costco and it didn't do anything besides lower boost on my stock tune.. but that was so long ago, back when my car was 100% stock except for a boost gauge..

[Dano]

Originally Posted by ms3brendan We have ONE E85 station here in Cleveland, OH.. it's about 15 minutes from me.. But I pass by the exit everyday coming home from work.. may have to try 20% next time I get gas.. I've tried 10% already with getting gas at Costco and it didn't do anything besides lower boost on my stock tune.. but that was so long ago, back when my car was 100% stock except for a boost gauge..

You were prob making more power, hitting load targets w less boost. Just a guess as to how it could have lowered boost.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ms3brendan]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 You were prob making more power, hitting load targets w less boost. Just a guess as to how it could have lowered boost. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah. That's probably it.. but stock tune FTL anyways..

I'll try 20% soon-ish here.. if I can hit load targets with less boost, so be it.. I don't even know if I'd want to try and tune for more power.. Save my K04 from this 19-20PSI WOT runs haha.

..I probably wouldn't be able to help trying to tune for more power.. even if I tried..