Drivers attempt at E85

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by driver311 Thats why i did egr delete and have a cc waiting to go on with check valve. why use meth to patch a problem when you can just fix it??

^ Problem solved.

Meth does seem like a solution, but at band-aid fix at most.

EGR systems are pretty low tech. they have been around in some form or another since the early 1980's. who wants to be recirculating previously burnt intake charges ? - (unless of course you're an emissions freak in which case you're in the wrong car)(get a prius )

[wolly6973]

So if I have read this right, ethanol helps prevent knock, even at lower octane ratings…

Would it be better for me to run straight 91 octane, or 89 that has 10% ethanol?
Maybe better is not the right word... A better question is, would 89 w/ 10% ethanol >= 91 for knock suppression/performance?

There are only a few stations with 93 out here, and the 89 octane is way way cheaper (at least 30 - 40 cents/gal) than either 91 or 93.

[ruthless013]

just read this on a site while searching for e85 in my area. nothing groundbreaking, but i don't think it was addressed in this thread. while paying ~$2.50 a gallon is a LOT better than $4.50 for the 93 here, taking a 20% hit in MPG might negate the financial benefits.

Fuel Economy This is an issue that many need to strongly consider , E85 contains less energy than gasoline , it has roughly 80% the energy as gasoline. You can lose anywhere from 2% to 30% in fuel economy. Now I have a home office and fuel economy isn't overly important to me as it is to the person that needs to commute 50 miles back and forth to work everyday . If it were critical for me I would have chosen a vehicle that gets better mpg than the SUV to start with . It is great to able to use an alternative fuel just for the sake of not having to send my $$ overseas to OPEC , that said fuel economy matters and if you need to travel daily then start your E85 vehicle project with a car that gets good gas mileage to begin with. I do care about fuel economy and want to squeeze every last mile I can get out of every gallon of E85 so I researched everything I could do to increase MPG and I'll list them here. Many are common sense processes you have heard before and others are things you may not have considered

[djuosnteisn]

Enigma Operator =








lol.... jk. Thanks for all the helpful insight!


Glad to see someone getting a few of us enthused on e85. Usually an e85 thread ends with a billion reasons why it won't work on our platform, bla bla bla.

I'm still gonna vote that to see any appreciable gains, the tune needs to be modified, or that was at least overly advanced to begin with, before adding meth (but i know your tune driver, and it wasn't). Until proven wrong with a dyno, or by trying it myself (which i have every intention of trying), i'm gonna write it off as sugar pill butt dyno phenomenon.

I really really really want to see back to back dyno pulls on pure petrol vs 50/50 with no changes to the tune. And then one with timing properly dialed in to quantify how much gains e85 really offers this platform.



Many of the PI cars end up knocking before they ever reach MBT (they're "knock limited"), and that's why race gas and e85 offer them great benefits, cause now they can actually dial in that necessary timing in to hit peak torque.

But when i was on the dyno... at least in the upper rpms (without any knock sensor involvement)... i was able to push my timing up to (and well beyond) the point where torque no longer increased. I never saw it detonate. And from all that i've read... the point where torque no longer increases is MBT. This was on 91 octane and wmi.


Now that's not to say that e85 doesn't offer any advantages... just that we probably aren't knock limited AFAIK. There's probably still a ton of benefit as click-me pointed out... so i'm still a fan.

Whether or not our fuel system will be able to handle the necessary fueling at high power and 100% e85 is yet to be determined, but i'm sure we'll find out soon enough

[jracer]

How would strait 93 gas run compared to 93 with up to 10% ethanol that is found at most pumps .?
I found a place local to me that has non ethanol fuel . Would it hurt or help ?
Would u have to retune ?

[Dano]

Originally Posted by ruthless013 just read this on a site while searching for e85 in my area. nothing groundbreaking, but i don't think it was addressed in this thread. while paying ~$2.50 a gallon is a LOT better than $4.50 for the 93 here, taking a 20% hit in MPG might negate the financial benefits.

not that too many of us are concerned with MPG, at least that isn't #1 but it is a good point in favor of WMI....WMI is only acitve at WOT.

justsayyin.

Long story but I have a buddy with a scoobie....got hooked on all the E85 hype and went out and started buying all the hardware to run it. ITFP, injectors, etc...then he finds out the nearest station is a 30 minute drive away....hahahaha....the whole time he was gathering up hardware I was telling him WMI..WMI...WMI...oh well... to each his own...if we had it here it would be much better for his PI car than ours and I would give it a shot as well.

Anthony, get your mix up to fiddy fiddy and do the testing on the dyno buddy!

[djuosnteisn]

I want to state one other thing about e85....


you need a dyno to properly tune for it. On pump and even wmi, you can street tune using the knock sensor as feed back. Push to the onset of knock... then pull back a bit.

With e85... you don't knock. You'll push and push and push..... and then blow up.

Just an fyi.

[Click Here]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I want to state one other thing about e85.... you need a dyno to properly tune for it. On pump and even wmi, you can street tune using the knock sensor as feed back. Push to the onset of knock... then pull back a bit. With e85... you don't knock. You'll push and push and push..... and then blow up. Just an fyi.

Great point. If anyone cares to see how easy it is to make this mistake, read here:

Agressive E85 ignition timing - evolutionm.net

The guy lets everyone know the motor is toast on page two, after people warned him that the amount of timing he was running was going to fubar his engine. So yah, don't just arbitrarily increase timing, haha.

[driver311]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I want to state one other thing about e85.... you need a dyno to properly tune for it. On pump and even wmi, you can street tune using the knock sensor as feed back. Push to the onset of knock... then pull back a bit. With e85... you don't knock. You'll push and push and push..... and then blow up. Just an fyi.

Dustin this is all fine and dandy but the car will still knock on 50 50 Im certain. So i can still street tune it. Like Ive said many times over on this site. NOt one person here has done anything great on meth and to be honest my car with 93 octane and 20% e85 seems to be just as good if not better than guys running meth. Im not trying to go crazy with e85 in my car. But if I can make as much power at 18psi on e85 mix that others are making at 20-21psi on meth, than it makes total sense to me. I dont wanna have to run 22psi to hit the power I desire on the stock block. Look at the logs. Compare my logs to Lennys, Danos and others to see for yourself. We are all running very similar setups yet I continue to flow more air with less boost. Its not vodoo or trickery, its just what it is

More to come. Im gonna fill back up tomorrow with another gallon of e85 in the mix. Im thinking Ill need to change the tune up a lil this time. You might be getting a call. LOL

Ps. I know you have a hard time with gs relating to the e85 but Im planning a dyno trip again this week. So we will see where I sit. I dont wanna push over 20psi so who knows where itll come in at.

[djuosnteisn]

durrrr......

GL driver. Post up some quantitative results! Dyno... weeeeeee.

[driver311]

Ill try homie Ill try. LOL Im just a little fella.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by driver311 Dustin this is all fine and dandy but the car will still knock on 50 50 Im certain. So i can still street tune it.

Just wanted to quote it.


Kick some ass man, and GL again!

[Dano]

Originally Posted by driver311 Dustin this is all fine and dandy but the car will still knock on 50 50 Im certain. So i can still street tune it. Like Ive said many times over on this site. NOt one person here has done anything great on meth and to be honest my car with 93 octane and 20% e85 seems to be just as good if not better than guys running meth. Im not trying to go crazy with e85 in my car. But if I can make as much power at 18psi on e85 mix that others are making at 20-21psi on meth, than it makes total sense to me. I dont wanna have to run 22psi to hit the power I desire on the stock block. Look at the logs. Compare my logs to Lennys, Danos and others to see for yourself. We are all running very similar setups yet I continue to flow more air with less boost. Its not vodoo or trickery, its just what it is More to come. Im gonna fill back up tomorrow with another gallon of e85 in the mix. Im thinking Ill need to change the tune up a lil this time. You might be getting a call. LOL Ps. I know you have a hard time with gs relating to the e85 but Im planning a dyno trip again this week. So we will see where I sit. I dont wanna push over 20psi so who knows where itll come in at.

hold on there just one minute!

don't drag me an my shitty dyno and recent logs into this.

I has power on the table you just wait and see

[driver311]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Just wanted to quote it. Kick some ass man, and GL again!

Hopefully I can make all this mess come together on the track and rock that 11 second wall that everyone cant get over. LOL

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by ruthless013 while paying ~$2.50 a gallon is a LOT better than $4.50 for the 93 here, taking a 20% hit in MPG might negate the financial benefits.

Correct. the Point of running E85 is to make power, not to get better MPG or save $. - well, compared to q16 Race fuel, it saves a massive ammt of money.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I want to state one other thing about e85.... you need a dyno to properly tune for it. On pump and even wmi, you can street tune using the knock sensor as feed back. Push to the onset of knock... then pull back a bit. With e85... you don't knock. You'll push and push and push..... and then blow up. Just an fyi.

Not necessarily true- Though having a dyno is Always ideal for precise tuning over street tunes, its not a limiting factor when tuning for E85. you are right pushing and pushing- the key is to be smart about dialing in timing advance. - Thats what kills engines. if you're wise about that, you can successfully street tune E85, just like you can tune 91,93 or racing fuels.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Enigma Operator = lol.... jk. Thanks for all the helpful insight! Glad to see someone getting a few of us enthused on e85. Usually an e85 thread ends with a billion reasons why it won't work on our platform, bla bla bla. I'm still gonna vote that to see any appreciable gains, the tune needs to be modified, or that was at least overly advanced to begin with, before adding meth (but i know your tune driver, and it wasn't).

1st off.. LOL how the hell am i like Hank Hill? does Hank run E85 in his Nissan?? hahahhaha (no he probably uses Propane Injection) hilarious. - Probably all the cheers-ing ive been posting up. in that case- :friday: :friday: :friday: :friday:


- Im happy to help with some of the insight. And really, im glad to see some of you fellas getting enthused on E85. Its simply another aspect we can use in tuning to make more power. and thats why we're all enthusiasts anyway isnt it? - We like making power.

You are right about most threads ending in a billion reasons why E85 isnt right for whatever reasons. Most are really frustrating to read, because about 99% of which are False, Hearsay, or misconceptions about the fuel. My intent of even posting up was to put to rest many of the misleading posts about E85 and quell some of the hysteria and false statements made about running Ethanol.

Lastly Dustin, you sir are absolutely correct about needing to tune for the fuel to see real appreciable gains. Although some tunes many of you guys are running may be held back by various aspects & parameters of the tune in which case running a higher octane level fuel may benefit you - just by putting in say 4 gallons of the rocket sauce.

[EnigmaOperator]

Ok, we've been mentioning tunes and tuning here and there over and over, and tuning seems to be a subject many folks know very little about and sometimes people feel its a "black art" , so i think perhaps its time to bring up some tuning knowledge. Much of which is pulled from my favorite source as not to spend 5 hours typing you fellas a novel.



NOW- THIS INFORMATION IS BASED OFF TUNING ECU PARAMETERS FOUND IN EVOLUTIONS, SUBARUS AND GT-R's. MUCH OF WHAT YOU FIND HERE (CLOSED LOOP VS. OPEN LOOP) MAY DIFFER FOR THE DISI PLATFORM. I SAY THIS JUST SO YOU ARE AWARE- AND HAVE THAT IN MIND WHEN READING THIS. FOLKS LIKE DUSTIN WHO ARE FAMILIAR WITH TUNING THE MS3 & 6 PLATFORMS CAN CHIME IN ON THIS.



It is necessary to understand that our vehicles were not initially designed for E85 consumption and as such, lack the necessary logic to control changes effected by the changing properties of the fuel. (we dont drive flex fuel vehicles obviously)

This is the very reason it is necessary to re-tune for these different class fuels . Simply put, our ECU’s are E85 dumb. As previously mentioned, a true flexible fuel vehicle has a sensor installed that reads the ethanol content of the fuel. The ECU translates the value to a percentage of concentration and then is able to correlate that value and make compensations based on fuel composition. This allows a flex fuel vehicle to run any concentration of ethanol from 0% to 100%. We are not that lucky- thus the need for quality tuning.

Before we continue it is good to understand the concepts of AFR as it relates to E85. Because E85 contains less energy per volume it is necessary to use more of it to achieve the same desired result. As such the stoichiometric AFR of E85 at an ethanol concentration of 85% is 9.76:1 vs Petrol at 14.7:1.

You might be thinking it is impossible to tune because our ECU’s only read up to an effective 11.2:1 AFR and can only adjust up to that point. This is not so and here is why.

All ECU’s and other stand alone AFR gauges designed for Petrol use a number called Lambda to derive stoich. That number is the same for Petrol as it is for E85 and is equivalent to 1.0. What this means is that for a value of 1.0 lambda, for what ever fuel you happen to be using at the moment, it will report its result as 14.7 whether it is E85 or not. That means when running E85 and your AFR is reported to be 14.7, your real-time AFR is 9.76. This is very good news for us because all we would need to do is increase the injector pulse width till our reported AFR’s are ideal for Petrol but while running E85. With the exception of increased injector pulse width, tuning for E85 is no different than tuning for Petrol.

So why the need for several tunes? Because E85 is not at a consistent concentration- based on how people will be mixing it and or where they buy their E85. Ethanol concentrations vary between areas of the country, Gas stations and the Season. Also the lack of logic within the ECU prevents the ECU from properly compensating for differences in fuel. Add on top of that the differences in altitude and weather and you escalate the effects even more so than with just petrol.

Tuning Concepts


Effects on Closed Loop Fueling.

Here you would expect the ECU to do its job and compensate for differences in fuel by comparing the target fuel values dictated in the Primary Fuel Tables with the real world conditions as dictated by the various sensors, and making adjustments as observed by viewing Fuel Trims Immediate and Fuel Trims Learned.

Well it does, and quite well up to a point. Your trims will compensate for errors as much as +/-25%. Though I have never personally observed fuel trims to exceed an average 12% as affected by ethanol concentration, it is possible. Many tuners will say an ideal tune is less than +/-6% when Fuel Trim Immediate and Fuel Trim Learned are combined. It is for this reason I like to dial in my closed loop fueling for the particular fuel you are running at the time.


I have observed that when utilizing E85 and running less than ideal fuel trims, the result is a slightly rougher engine idle, some hesitation and overall roughness. The closer to ideal I can make my trims the better everything runs. - WHEN TUNED PROPERLY- MANY TIMES E85 TUNES IDLE EVEN SMOOTHER THAN REGULAR PUMP GAS TUNES. - KEEP THAT IN MIND

These effects multiply when you change altitude or experience extreme climate changes.

Effects on Open Loop Fuel.

Here is where engine damage can occur. Closed loop fueling will most likely be able to compensate for the difference , but, its all up to your tune. (which is why you should get one! ) when you go wide open throttle and into open loop operation, the ECU is calculating fuel that is dictated by the values set in the primary fuel table and for what ever air flow is observed at the MAF sensor but does not take into concideration readings from the O2 sensor and will mot make adjustments based on that. To put it in simple terms the ECU is deriving fuel based on look up values.

So since the ECU thinks it is calculating for Petrol, (unless you're tuned for E85) it has concidered that the fuel remains constant. It thinks all is fine and continues on Fat Dumb and Happy when in actuality - depending on your mix the ethanol content in your current actual fuel is much higher than the Premium 91 or 93 you are tuned for and the possibility to run much leaner can occur, due to the fact you are currently tuned for a fuel with higher concentrations of petrol. The risk here is a higher propensity for knock due to mixure lean-ness - can occur depending on how aggressively you’ve tuned initially for E85. The high levels of octane offer some degree of buffer but I tend to stay on the safe side of the fence.





One other point is that when running an inappropriate tune, during startup, the initial injector pulse widths are not ideal. It will be very difficult to start the engine in the winter time if you have a summer time tune installed and perhaps vice versa. - that really depends on cold temperatures, your tune, you're mix etc.. some guys who run straight e85 can start at any temp, and because many of you simply want to run a mix versus straight Corn gas - this is a moot point- i just bring it up because i like to cover all the aspects on the top of my head.



Tuning Work Flow

heres some info that might aid some of you who are tweaking tunes yourself..

These steps assume you have already installed the necessary fuel system upgrades ive mentioned - fuel pump is always a good idea- if you're gonna be taking it to the power potential many see with E85. It should also be understood that this is only to get you to a base tune status and will require further extensive tuning. Once this base is establish, the subsequent tuning steps are no different than tuning for Petrol.

1.) To start the initial E85 tune you will want to start with a known good Petrol tune that is already pre scaled. Start by logging with the petrol tune while running petrol in the tank. This is to derive a base line reference and a starting point for your E85 tune.

2.) Verify the injector scaling (prob different for you DISI gents) and record or note the fuel trim immediate + fuel trim learned while engine is at ldle. Combined trims should be less then +/-6% at idle. If not then make adjustments to injector scale till trims are ideal.

3.) Verify both closed loop and open loop fueling throughout the RPM range to be ideal. Make adjustments to MAF scaling if needed and then save the tune. Repeat form step one till trims are ideal.

4.) Now save the Petrol tune as something else. This will be your new base E85 Tune.

5.) Make the switch over to E85

6.) Run the new tune and adjust Fuel Injector scaling and Boost Error Trim by applying a multiplier of 1.30 for an increase of 30% over current.

7.) Install the tune and start the vehicle. Allow it to reach operating temperature. Reset the ECU and start it again.

8.) Allow it to idle and observe the fuel trim immediate and fuel trim learned to stabilize.

9.) Observe fuel trim immediate + fuel trim learned at idle and adjust scaling till combined trims are ideal.

10.) Save your map

11.) Repeat step 7 to 10 till fuel trims are ideal.

Once you have established a base tune you can begin tuning your open loop and closed loop tuning as desired. Also changes to timing and boost can be done as desired and tip-in enrichment will most likely need to be adjusted.


Lastly, Calm down. have a beer. :friday:


and enjoy some new found HP on e85.

[Enki]

A wiser man can probably discern if a difference is to be seen here.
Do the hotter boost temps and almost identical flow mean there's more air going in than would be on pump gas?

These were taken within a 30 minute period; 2 gallons of e85, 10 of 91.

91: Engine warmed up and a second gear run done
Mix: A handful of miles after filling up, second gear
Mix2: Lots of time later, 3rd gear run
*(None of these are WOT pulls, but are probably pretty close)

[driver311]

I think enigmas last post should be the start to an e85 sticky. I see this being the beginning of a great thing for msf.

[djuosnteisn]

We don't have access to injector scaling or latency tables. All adjustments would have to be done using the maf curve directly.

Once a petrol tune is dialed in, and deemed good... one would have to scale the MAF up by 30% instead. And then, once running on corn, they could simply do a traditional maf calibration process, bring the fuel trims to within +/- 6, and verifying wot afr's match those targeted by the tune.


Sucks not having injector tables... but since there are really no aftermarket injs yet... it's understandable lol.

Engima... what AFR do you usually target with e85? I think we could easily run ratios as lean as 0.85 lambda... and maybe even leaner.

[Dano]

so 1.0 lambda is 1.0 lambda to the O2..i get that....petro = 14.7 and corn=9.76

does that mean we need adjust so that Actual AFR would read 9.76 at idle and that is the AFR to look for and we always need to be 4.94 points richer than what we currently run?

So I run 11:9:1 WOT now and I would want that to be 6.9:1??

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 so 1.0 lambda is 1.0 lambda to the O2..i get that....petro = 14.7 and corn=9.76 does that mean we need adjust so that Actual AFR would read 9.76 at idle and that is the AFR to look for and we always need to be 4.94 points richer than what we currently run? So I run 11:9:1 WOT now and I would want that to be 6.9:1??

Nope... pretend like it's gas basically. At light load, cruise and idle, you want to see stoich... which will show as 14.7 on our ecu. So target 14.7.

Under boost, i'd tune to 12 - 12.5 (shit maybe even leaner with DI, i dunno), starting richer and progressively leaning it out of course.

When you see the 14.7... just know in the back of your mind that it really corresponds to 9.7, aka stoich.

[Dano]

ok...I got it...I shouldn't try to think before I finish my 2nd Mt Dew on a Saturday morning...

but I do recall a convo with 12PK about being careful running higher concentrations of meth [using it more as a fuel in WMI] and that running the same AFR as before would actually leave you being leaner than what was indicated.....off to get 2nd Mt Dew.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 ok...I got it...I shouldn't try to think before I finish my 2nd Mt Dew on a Saturday morning... but I do recall a convo with 12PK about being careful running higher concentrations of meth [using it more as a fuel in WMI] and that running the same AFR as before would actually leave you being leaner than what was indicated.....off to get 2nd Mt Dew.

If our WBO2 is reading lambda*14.7, then this is not an issue.

FWIW, I just filled up and used 1.5 gallons of E85 with my normal 93 octane.

I see no obvious shift in AFR after several pulls. Still 11.8:1 +/- about 0.2.

I might add another gallon in the near future.

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn We don't have access to injector scaling or latency tables. All adjustments would have to be done using the maf curve directly. Once a petrol tune is dialed in, and deemed good... one would have to scale the MAF up by 30% instead. And then, once running on corn, they could simply do a traditional maf calibration process, bring the fuel trims to within +/- 6, and verifying wot afr's match those targeted by the tune. Sucks not having injector tables... but since there are really no aftermarket injs yet... it's understandable lol. Engima... what AFR do you usually target with e85? I think we could easily run ratios as lean as 0.85 lambda... and maybe even leaner.

^ Awesome. combine that with my previous work flow and you've got some quality tuning how-to . Thanks Dustin that was exactly the type of feedback i was looking for.

as for AFR's, i like to target 11.7-12's on PI cars, and with the DI capability, i think even 12.5 or leaner is safely possible.. but it'll take some real field testing to be sure.

[erod550]

Some awesome info in this thread. I second Driver's suggestion to start a new sticky with Enigma's Tuning Concepts post. I have several E85 stations in town and would consider switching if no adverse long term effects are seen.

[Novej]

Whats up everyone I just wanted to say thank you to Driver for going this route with the e85/93 mix. I've currently been running the Hypertech flash with about 2-3gallons E-85 to 8-9 gallons 93 (and 4oz Marvel Mystery oil) for about 3 months now. Like enigma and some others have hit on here my knock is virtually non existant now. Even with the resulting leaning of the mix I still manage to see 11s, 10s even 9s and 8s on the AFR up top while WOT.....Even more importantly my lambda readings tend to hit around .78 also while boosting.....So for those wondering if the Hypertech is safe I think the proofs in the pudding. Theres a lot of good information in this thread (definately sticky worthy) The one thing I would add is that for anyone trying this for the first time. Make sure you completely reset your ecu so it can relearn your fuel trims to your current mix. One of the best ways to do this is to completly disconnect your battery and touch the negative and positve leads (keep them like this overnight is best) to discharge the ecus keep alive voltage used for storing certain memory functions. If you don't, it could take it a little longer to adjust to your current setup and fuel trims might be a little off at first.......Honestly I think this application is really going to shine come the summer months when heat, and knock will be come a little bit more problematic for us....

Oh one more thing I started my trials (see my sig) running 4 gallons E-85 to 8 gallons 93, even then I never saw a short term fuel trim of over 7% and a long term fuel trim of over 5% (mind you its also been 20ish degrees outside too).........lambda stayed right around .85-1.0 when at full boost.

[bmylez]

You see AFRs in the 8s at WOT? Yikes...no good. I'd get a different tune. I run 11.8 all the way to red line.

[Novej]

Originally Posted by bmylez You see AFRs in the 8s at WOT? Yikes...no good. I'd get a different tune. I run 11.8 all the way to red line.

Totally agree......The 8s are rarely seen I usually am in the 11s and 10s until you get close to redline then thats when it tapers down to the 9s. Hypertech is just trying to play it safe....but yeah there is definately power to be made SAFELY at the top.......I just don't trust any of the "tuners" around here....Hell half of them don't even know what direct injection is.......Im in OKC I may have to take a drive down there to TEXAS

Definately not trying to threadjack this awesome one, but if you check out my link in my sig you can see some examples of my datalogs there......

[Nataphen]

I have an OCC already, so I'm thinking that my next mods will be CPE HPFP, EGR block off, and tune for 50/50 e85. Sounds really good so far.

[bmylez]

Originally Posted by Novej Totally agree......The 8s are rarely seen I usually am in the 11s and 10s until you get close to redline then thats when it tapers down to the 9s. Hypertech is just trying to play it safe....but yeah there is definately power to be made SAFELY at the top.......I just don't trust any of the "tuners" around here....Hell half of them don't even know what direct injection is.......Im in OKC I may have to take a drive down there to TEXAS Definately not trying to threadjack this awesome one, but if you check out my link in my sig you can see some examples of my datalogs there......

With direct injection...you're wrong if you're in the 10s...especially with e85. HT is wasting a BUTT TON of power with AFRs like that.

[NJSPEED3]

Originally Posted by Novej Totally agree......The 8s are rarely seen I usually am in the 11s and 10s until you get close to redline then thats when it tapers down to the 9s. Hypertech is just trying to play it safe....but yeah there is definately power to be made SAFELY at the top.......I just don't trust any of the "tuners" around here....Hell half of them don't even know what direct injection is.......Im in OKC I may have to take a drive down there to TEXAS Definately not trying to threadjack this awesome one, but if you check out my link in my sig you can see some examples of my datalogs there......

You need a tuning solution that allows you to make changes unlike the hypercrap! You afr's are way way to rich you are actually losing power.

[Novej]

Originally Posted by bmylez With direct injection...you're wrong if you're in the 10s...especially with e85. HT is wasting a BUTT TON of power with AFRs like that.

Again I totally agree, but in their defense the HT tune wasn't exactly designed for any E85 useage Im not running it straight and with how pig rich these cars come from the factory I'm not complaining. Like I said check out my logs and you'll see what Im talking about....When I first start boosting its around the 11s, just the closer you get to redline (approx. 5000ish rpms) the tune richens up again Im sure they did this for safety more than anything....Hell the stock tune does the samething....I honestly think HT set the ecu to target the 11s for openloop/WOT! But like Driver311 here Im still in the testing phases w/ the e85/93 mix.....With it dipping into the 10s and 9s the car still pulls very nicely and I'd rather see it a little rich up top then too LEAN!!! Serious question, how much HP do you guys think I could gain running 11s straight to redline especially on a stock turbo, with boost raised 2 psi already??? Eventually I want to go standback myself and Im just curious thats all....

Ok a correction, just looked at the logs again, Im hitting the 9s and 8s right before I shift under boost any ideas why?...but Im still mainly in the high 10s WOT......I need to post the actual datalogs so you can see what Im talking about......

[NJSPEED3]

^^^ stick to the topic


Thread is now a sticky!!

[erod550]

I don't think the Hypertech is a good solution for trying out e85 since you can't modify the tune at all. The Hypertech is just for people with a couple basic bolt-ons who don't want to mess with tuning. If you're going to go further than that, like messing with e85, you need an AP or Standback.

[driver311]

Hypertech should not be part of this discussion... PLEASE lol

Anyways for updates. Moved up to 30% e85 today and all is looking great. My afrs are still spot on and it appears my stft and ltft's are still pretty close. Maybe moving upwards a touch but wanna drive on it for a few days before I make any adjustment to my maf cals. I also leaned it out to 12.0 afr and added 1-2 degrees of timing between 5500-7000 and no knock at all. Things are starting to look real good. My first idea was just to call her quits at 50% but we will see what happens. LOL

[ms3brendan]

Originally Posted by driver311 Hypertech should not be part of this discussion... PLEASE lol Anyways for updates. Moved up to 30% e85 today and all is looking great. My afrs are still spot on and it appears my stft and ltft's are still pretty close. Maybe moving upwards a touch but wanna drive on it for a few days before I make any adjustment to my maf cals. I also leaned it out to 12.0 afr and added 1-2 degrees of timing between 5500-7000 and no knock at all. Things are starting to look real good. My first idea was just to call her quits at 50% but we will see what happens. LOL

Just be careful man.. don't want to see any zoom-zoom-boom'in happen.

[NJSPEED3]

Sick dude keep us posted, my only worry is something in the fuel system breaking down from the high ethanol content in the fuel. I agree with BF360 not all cars are manufactured to run 100% ethanol like say GM and their flexfuel vehicles. As far as I know our cars were made for pump gas only with some ethanol content allowed in the mixture.

[driver311]

Originally Posted by ms3brendan Just be careful man.. don't want to see any zoom-zoom-boom'in happen.

Be careful of what man?? Do you guys not comprehend that this shit is safer than pump gas?? Why is everyone so afraid of it.? LOL its like running race gas that burns cooler all the time. Im not pushing my afrs, Im not pushing timing, Im not pushing boost. So whats the issue?? Im trying to see if the car has the capablities of supplying the demand for the fuel. Im not gonna go crazy with it but what Im doing will help people that have the motor to do it and have a great option to max there setup out without spending big bucks on race fuel.

Like I said my trims are good so Im not to worried right now. Car is running great and beggin for me to turn up the wick. LOL Now someone trade me my 3071 for a 3076 or 35r.

[NJSPEED3]

your turbo is perfect man if anything get a T3 hotside and call it a day

[driver311]

Lets trade turbos and manis then. LOL