Drivers attempt at E85

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Enki How is your fuel pump holding up?

Looks like it was averaging 1790 PSI when commanded to target 1780 PSI on my last run. No obvious issue.

[driver311]

So this first log is just using my existing tune with 50-60% e85. my tune requests 11.8 afr.
The second log I turned down the boost just in case and requested 10.5afr. Better but still lean. After a few more logs I decided to take it back to roughtly 25% e85 again until I have more time to tune on it. Some days off for sure. As soon as i went back to 30% e85 the afrs were right back in check. This third log shows that.

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by Novej Make sure you completely reset your ecu so it can relearn your fuel trims to your current mix. One of the best ways to do this is to completly disconnect your battery and touch the negative and positve leads (keep them like this overnight is best) to discharge the ecus keep alive voltage used for storing certain memory functions.

^ Resetting the ECU can also be done quickly and Easily by disconnecting your Negative battery lead and putting your foot on the brake pedal for about 10-15 seconds. That'll discharge any left over positive voltage.

Originally Posted by bmylez You see AFRs in the 8s at WOT? Yikes...no good. I'd get a different tune. I run 11.8 all the way to red line.

Yeah. ^ thats no bueno. Seriously rich.. Rich is always safer than Lean,- to a point.. at AFR's that rich i'd be concerned with fouling of the plugs, and even cylinder washing.

Originally Posted by bmylez With direct injection...you're wrong if you're in the 10s...especially with e85. HT is wasting a BUTT TON of power with AFRs like that.

Absolutely. Those AFR's are way off for a DISI engine.

Originally Posted by NJSPEED3 You need a tuning solution that allows you to make changes unlike the hypercrap! You afr's are way way to rich you are actually losing power.

Yes. the Hypertech is not an ideal tuning solution by any means. an Accessport or laptop with a Tatrix cable is the way to go.

Originally Posted by erod550 I don't think the Hypertech is a good solution for trying out e85 since you can't modify the tune at all. The Hypertech is just for people with a couple basic bolt-ons who don't want to mess with tuning. If you're going to go further than that, like messing with e85, you need an AP or Standback.

Absolutely ^ The inability to change your tune or modify your ECU's parameters is not ideal for E85

Originally Posted by driver311 Hypertech should not be part of this discussion... PLEASE lol Anyways for updates. Moved up to 30% e85 today and all is looking great. My afrs are still spot on and it appears my stft and ltft's are still pretty close. Maybe moving upwards a touch but wanna drive on it for a few days before I make any adjustment to my maf cals. I also leaned it out to 12.0 afr and added 1-2 degrees of timing between 5500-7000 and no knock at all. Things are starting to look real good. My first idea was just to call her quits at 50% but we will see what happens. LOL

haha right-- enough about the Hypertech. its a No-no for the purpose of running E85.

Nice work on your success with your E85 mixing!

Originally Posted by NJSPEED3 Sick dude keep us posted, my only worry is something in the fuel system breaking down from the high ethanol content in the fuel. I agree with BF360 not all cars are manufactured to run 100% ethanol like say GM and their flexfuel vehicles. As far as I know our cars were made for pump gas only with some ethanol content allowed in the mixture.

Again- Modern cars are indeed capable of running high ethanol content fuels. The cars are manufactured with ethanol compliance in mind from the get go. This is an OEM requirement to handle the fuels we see here in the USDM. Flex fuel vehicles do have additional components for the fuels- sensors that detect ethanol content to adjust the tuning on the fly- Non flex fuel vehicles do not have these sensors- which is where Tuning takes the place of an ethanol content sensor.

The Subaru & Evo crowd have been running straight E85 now for about 5 years with little to no reports of corrosion or failures - with the exeption of an aftermarket fuel sock having troubles (yet to be confirmed).

Originally Posted by driver311 Be careful of what man?? Do you guys not comprehend that this shit is safer than pump gas?? Why is everyone so afraid of it.? LOL its like running race gas that burns cooler all the time. Im not pushing my afrs, Im not pushing timing, Im not pushing boost. So whats the issue?? Im trying to see if the car has the capablities of supplying the demand for the fuel. Im not gonna go crazy with it but what Im doing will help people that have the motor to do it and have a great option to max there setup out without spending big bucks on race fuel.

YES YES YES. thanks to folks like Driver, the capability and true facts of Ethanol fuels are being discovered by this forum. There is absolutely nothing to be afraid of when thinking about E85 - it simply has to be understood and not immediately rejected like it has been on this forum for so long.

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go So is it actually required to add a lubricate (like Marvel Mystery Oil) when running an E85 blend? I would not be surprised to find that E85 already has the required lubricants to keep fuel systems happy. Does anyone have an answer to this?

E-85 does NOT require an addtional lubricant. It is 15% petrol, providing more than enough lubrication. Marvels Mystery oil is just that- a Mystery.. who decided they needed to add that to their E85 mix is a Mystery.

Originally Posted by Novej Good idea, however with virtually no knock on his logs, and AFR's still well within tolerance I don't think this is a problem right now........now once he starts adjusting his timing to find the limits that could yeild a different story

Correct ^

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn EGTs are quite a bit cooler on e85 as well, right? What effects does this have on the hotside of the turbo? IMO a cooler EGT would result in slower exh velocity, and perhaps a more sluggish spool (doubtfully noticeable on the k04)..... BUT... the additional required fuel will increase the overall exhaust mass... bringing that spool back and then some. So if you maintained the same flow, with cooler EGTs, it's possible that the turbo would actually perform more efficiently.... and perhaps account for all this butt dyno claims we're seeing. If that's true... then it'd be obvious on a dyno. And i for one, believe dyno charts over hearsay.

Ive found that EGT's really dont run significantly cooler on Ethanol. it seems the cooling effect is really found on the intake charge, but after the fire is lit, the temps arent much cooler. However, spool is added due to the additional exhaust volume.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Thanks for the analytical objective data. Me likes fact.

Exactly. that is what this forum needs more of.


Cheers,

Enigma.

[rodrigo]

does enigma own a corn field?????

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by lenny127 does enigma own a corn field?????

LOL if i did i'd be distilling some serious Moonshine thats for sure!!

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by lenny127 does enigma own a corn field?????

That was my first thought as well. lol

Seriously, between all the meth and moonshine, my engine has some real issues... ;-)

Originally Posted by driver311 So this first log is just using my existing tune with 50-60% e85. my tune requests 11.8 afr. The second log I turned down the boost just in case and requested 10.5afr. Better but still lean. After a few more logs I decided to take it back to roughtly 25% e85 again until I have more time to tune on it. Some days off for sure. As soon as i went back to 30% e85 the afrs were right back in check. This third log shows that.

Very interesting...

I have been slowly inching up my E85 %, and I have not yet seen any significant shift in AFR, which I still find very odd.

[Dano]

maybe your wbo2 is foobared...

request a leener AFR and see what it registers.

just a wild gues here.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 maybe your wbo2 is foobared... request a leener AFR and see what it registers. just a wild gues here.

It shows ~14.7:1 at cruise, ~11.8:1 at WOT, ~9:1 after lifting from WOT (probably lots of meth flooding in prior to the pump stopping), and ~29:1 under decel.

All signs are that it is functioning across the entire range; I am just not seeing a shift as I would have expected from the ethanol.

I should be running about 16.8% ethanol right now assuming the E85 is currently 70% ethanol.

[rodrigo]

r u guys running maf screens? cuz that might be the issue here

[Dano]

I think Lenny is on to something

12pk my idea was a stretch at best. LOL. Maybe you just need more 85 or ur running closer to 70 as you indicated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[4G63]

I really need to download this ATR soon damn computers been broken way to long! Driver 311 real proud of u taking this step man was looking into this myself after talking to a couple Evo friends I just don't have the knowledge to do so and more power to you! Hope everything works out fully bolted now after last night and looking to tune hopefully with some e85 in this bitch!

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go I should be running about 18% ethanol right now assuming the E85 is currently 70% ethanol.

So i guess you should be seeing a 0.04% increase in afr, right?

18% mix, 70% ethanol, and a 35% change in stoich....

if you were running 100% ethanol... you'd see ~35% leaner afr's... putting your 11.8 up to 16 afr.....

but it's only e70... so that's only ~24% leaner... and your only at a 18% mix... so that's ~4%.... ammiright or ammiright?


fucking % of a % of a % of a afr lol. But still 4% is significant and should be putting you around 12.2 afr.

[Dano]

I realize that stoich is about the same for meth and e85 but

Could his meth be making the diff

Or did 12pk disable wmi

Anthony doesn't run meth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[djuosnteisn]

Meh, if he was tuned with the meth, it shouldn't be a factor.


My guess is that as % goes up, it'll become more noticeable.

[Dano]

ok..i'll keep quiet over here....

[djuosnteisn]

Hahahahahaha, no no no.... i hope my meh didn't come out like that... I was just typing real quick.

by all means don't keep quiet. Chances are your right lololol

[Dano]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Chances are your right lololol

yea a % of a % of a % of a chance...

no your meh didn't come out that way at all...

I just had two strikes so I was playing it safe...

[BigjohnB20]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn So i guess you should be seeing a 0.04% increase in afr, right? 18% mix, 70% ethanol, and a 35% change in stoich.... if you were running 100% ethanol... you'd see ~35% leaner afr's... putting your 11.8 up to 16 afr..... but it's only e70... so that's only ~24% leaner... and your only at a 18% mix... so that's ~4%.... ammiright or ammiright? fucking % of a % of a % of a afr lol. But still 4% is significant and should be putting you around 12.2 afr.

Way too lazy to do the math right now, but I think 12pk was saying that his overall percentage of EtOH equals 18%. Not that he has 18% of e70 mixed in. So your calcs will be off a little bit

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn So i guess you should be seeing a 0.04% increase in afr, right? 18% mix, 70% ethanol, and a 35% change in stoich.... if you were running 100% ethanol... you'd see ~35% leaner afr's... putting your 11.8 up to 16 afr..... but it's only e70... so that's only ~24% leaner... and your only at a 18% mix... so that's ~4%.... ammiright or ammiright? fucking % of a % of a % of a afr lol. But still 4% is significant and should be putting you around 12.2 afr.

I am running 3.5 gallons E85 now out of the 14.5 gallon tank. This works out to approx 24% E85 by volume. If the E85 is 70% ethanol, then that works out to my gas being ~16.8% ethanol (not the 18% I listed earlier).

Yes, I should be see an easy 0.5 shift in AFRs and it should shift linearly as I add more E85. So far I have not seen anything significant (> 0.2).

Originally Posted by Dano2010 I realize that stoich is about the same for meth and e85 but Could his meth be making the diff Or did 12pk disable wmi Anthony doesn't run meth. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Still running my M7 nozzle with 100% meth. No changes have been made to this system during the E85 trials.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Meh, if he was tuned with the meth, it shouldn't be a factor. My guess is that as % goes up, it'll become more noticeable.

I would expect that as well, but I am just surprised that I do not see the expected shift. This makes me want to be ultra conservative since there is obviously some factors that I/we are missing here...

[Dano]

Well anthony def sees AFR shift....perhaps you just are not there yet and the math isn't exactly spot on...not your math but a missing variable somewhere...who knows how much concentration there actually is in the E85 from station to station.....but there I go again talking to a chem engineer about math...

LOL

*returns to corner*

[djuosnteisn]

..... maybe now is a good time to ask how the flex fuel vehicles determine ethanol content?


Anthony kept telling me that he saw no change in AFR until he finally went above a certain mix ratio...

12pkofbeer is saying the same thing now (though still below said mix threshold).



Do the flexfuel vehicles recognize... and effectively compensate for a mix to a certain point? Is there any way our cars have the ability to recognize ethanol content, and adjust the IPW as necessary to maintain fueling targets? And perhaps the ECU will only make an adjustment up to a certain point...


I know the shell station i use has "up to 10% ethanol" on the pump... and i've never seen any change...

[cld12pk2go]

One thing that is neat about ethanol is that its latent heat of vaporization is way higher than gas.

Ethanol = 919 KJ/KG
Gas = 350 KJ/KG

So even my 16.8% ethanol mix would absorb (350*(1-.168)+919*0.168)/350 = 1.27 times more heat than straight gas during the compression stroke.

This should really help keep detonation at bay.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn ..... maybe now is a good time to ask how the flex fuel vehicles determine ethanol content? Anthony kept telling me that he saw no change in AFR until he finally went above a certain mix ratio... 12pkofbeer is saying the same thing now (though still below said mix threshold). Do the flexfuel vehicles recognize... and effectively compensate for a mix to a certain point? Is there any way our cars have the ability to recognize ethanol content, and adjust the IPW as necessary to maintain fueling targets? And perhaps the ECU will only make an adjustment up to a certain point... I know the shell station i use has "up to 10% ethanol" on the pump... and i've never seen any change...

My understanding is that they use a density sensor since the density is very accurate at determining the mix between gas and ethanol (check the graph in the .PDF I linked earlier).

Very interesting hypothesis, it could be that driver finally saturated the adjustment capability of this theorized compensation and went way lean when he jumped from ~30% to 50% E85...

[DSIT995]

So at the very least adding 1-2 gallons per fill up could possibly help with detonation, regardless of trying to make more power or not?
Sounds like its worth it me.... Now I just have to find a station in CT/NY lolz

[cld12pk2go]

So I just topped off again...

Now my mix is as follows:

4.3 gallons E85
10.2 gallons gas

So 29.5% E85, which assuming 70% ethanol content equates to 20.6% ethanol in my tank.

If the E85 is actually 85% ethanol then I have 25.1% ethanol in my tank. So I should definitely be between 20.6-25.1% now.

This equates to 35-41% more heat absorbed during the compression stroke to vaporize the fuel...

[Novej]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn ..... maybe now is a good time to ask how the flex fuel vehicles determine ethanol content? Anthony kept telling me that he saw no change in AFR until he finally went above a certain mix ratio... 12pkofbeer is saying the same thing now (though still below said mix threshold). Do the flexfuel vehicles recognize... and effectively compensate for a mix to a certain point? Is there any way our cars have the ability to recognize ethanol content, and adjust the IPW as necessary to maintain fueling targets? And perhaps the ECU will only make an adjustment up to a certain point... I know the shell station i use has "up to 10% ethanol" on the pump... and i've never seen any change...

The Flex vehicles actually have a really cool sensor that detects the alcohol content by measuring of all things, the fuels density. Because each E blend will have a different density based on the alcohol content, the pcm can determine which fuel the car is using and adjust acordingly.....(this is what makes them so "flexible")...I don't think our cars have this density sensor...

[cld12pk2go]

Yes, it is quite clear that there is an essentially linear relationship with density and % alcohol:



That can be used to compensate fueling in a very straight foward manner.

[Click Here]

93 octane versus E85 EGT datalogs...

My test setup includes an Innovate TC4 EGT datalogger, and a K-type thermocouple in each of the four header primaries about 2" inches back from the header flange. So not only can I get the peak exhaust gas temperatures, I can also see the variance from cylinder to cylinder, which is kind of cool.

Each run was done in third gear from a roll. This helped negate differences in intake air temperature and exhaust gas temperature at the start of the run. I obviously had to change the tune when I switched fuels, but I was really careful about keeping the lambda, ignition advance, and cam advance consistent between E85 vs. 93oct runs. I also graphed the output of both my ECU datalogger and Innovate TC4 dataloggers so you get a complete picture of all the variables.

The top graph has good stuff like air/fuel, cam and ignition timing (take note of the axis titles) plotted against engine RPM. The bottom graph is the output from my Innovate TC4 EGT datalogger displayed in degrees F. The craziness going on at ~4000rpm is my VTEC switchover point.

93 Octane
Conditions at the start of the run:
Coolant Temp: 190°F
Intake Air Temp: 58.1°F

At the end of the run peak EGT of the hottest cylinder was 1292°F with a difference of 11°F between the hottest and coolest cylinders. The fueling stays in closed-loop during WOT and I was targeting 0.92 lambda (or 13.5:1 in air/fuel on the gasoline scale) and hit a peak of 32° ignition advance. There was no knock during this run.


E85
Conditions at the start of the run:
Coolant Temp: 181°F
Intake Air Temp: 56.6°F

At the end of the run peak EGT of the hottest cylinder was 1275°F with a difference of 10°F between the hottest and coolest cylinders. The fueling stays in closed-loop during WOT and I was targeting 0.92 lambda (or 13.5:1 in air/fuel on the gasoline scale) and hit a peak of 32° ignition advance. There was no knock during this run.

Comments: I was pretty amazed by the consistency between the temperatures of the two runs. But, from what this tells me it doesn't look like E85 really offers any benefit in regards to lower EGT, other than maybe the temperature was a bit slower to rise. Comments are welcome.

[driver311]

Ok guys here are two more logs. First is 3rd and 4th gear pull. I shifted really slow to 4th on this pull and got a good spike. Im not sure why it has been spiking lately. I wonder if its my bc or has something to do with porting my intake mani. but anyways. 2nd pull is 4th gear roll on. This is with 25% e85 requested 12.0 afr and added some good timing up top. Car is really fucking pulling hard. We will see what the dyno says soon.

[driver311]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go So I just topped off again... Now my mix is as follows: 4.3 gallons E85 10.2 gallons gas So 29.5% E85, which assuming 70% ethanol content equates to 20.6% ethanol in my tank. If the E85 is actually 85% ethanol then I have 25.1% ethanol in my tank. So I should definitely be between 20.6-25.1% now. This equates to 35-41% more heat absorbed during the compression stroke to vaporize the fuel...

Once I went past this point is when the afr started leaning out. Crazy that even at 25-30% my afrs were still exactly the same. Seems we are seeing similar results.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by driver311 Once I went past this point is when the afr started leaning out. Crazy that even at 25-30% my afrs were still exactly the same. Seems we are seeing similar results.

My preliminary results with the current level is that AFRs are still the same...

Also, it appears that E85 is normally really E70 in winter where ambient is below 32°F (due to vapor pressure becoming too low to start easy at 85%).

My area certainly meets this criteria; therefore, it is very likely that I am now at 20.6% ethanol now.

[cld12pk2go]

Here is a link that describes the ethanol content by region and month...

E85 Mustangs.com - Regional Fuel Chart by state

[DSIT995]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Here is a link that describes the ethanol content by region and month... E85 Mustangs.com - Regional Fuel Chart by state

Good to know, I drove down to Bedford NY today and picked up 5 gallons of E85....
After reading threw that spreadsheet its actually only 70% ethanol, not 85

When I load my new Boost based map up & the weather is decent Im going to get some logs and I also just installed a new Prosport EGT gauge, so ill be able to keep an eye on EGT's as well

[Dano]

did you happen to get EGTs before the corn?

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by DSIT995 Good to know, I drove down to Bedford NY today and picked up 5 gallons of E85.... After reading threw that spreadsheet its actually only 70% ethanol, not 85 When I load my new Boost based map up & the weather is decent Im going to get some logs and I also just installed a new Prosport EGT gauge, so ill be able to keep an eye on EGT's as well

It will be interesting to see if you have any significant AFR shift. I still have none at 4.3 gallons, which is ~20.6% ethanol...

Unfortunatley, I just shoveled 4'' of snow off my driveway...so it might be a few days before I can get any meaningful logs...

[Nataphen]

This may be a common sense question, but I'll ask at the risk of looking stupid. If you were going to get to the level of running 100% e85, would it be best to get a protune with e70 to be sure you're getting at least the minimum percentage from fill up to fill up? I'm not going to go retune every time that the percentage changes. I would think that that would make sense, but just axing.

I'm not posting much because I don't have anything pertinent to add. However, I am absolutely keeping an eye on this thread and crossing my fingers. Good luck.

[Novej]

Originally Posted by Nataphen This may be a common sense question, but I'll ask at the risk of looking stupid. If you were going to get to the level of running 100% e85, would it be best to get a protune with e70 to be sure you're getting at least the minimum percentage from fill up to fill up? I'm not going to go retune every time that the percentage changes. I would think that that would make sense, but just axing. I'm not posting much because I don't have anything pertinent to add. However, I am absolutely keeping an eye on this thread and crossing my fingers. Good luck.

The only problem with that is that ethanol isn't "governed" as closely as gasoline....meaning theres no guarantee your getting the blend that your pumping even if it is summer. This is why flex vehicles use that density sensor. I say if it ever gets to the point of us being able to run 100% e85, tune it in the winter as your MORE LIKELY (but not guaranteed) to get the lower blend E70...that way come the summer months (IN THEORY) you should be getting more ethanol content per fill up......

[Nataphen]

So, maybe a good idea to tune with 1 gallon of 93 octane in the tank, then fuel up with all e85 from there on? That would give you a little headroom, and I doubt that you would lose a significant amount of power. I'd just hate to blow my motor because I got a low content e85 since, as you said, you never know what they're going to actually have at the pump. I don't want to run a datalogger every single day of the year.

[bf360]

If your thinking that 15% ethanol change will make a significant difference it wont.
Even if it did, why would you get tuned on e70, if anything get tuned on e85 that way when you do get a lower percentage ethanol you run richer instead of leaner.

[Dano]

^^^^^^^^

werd

[DSIT995]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 did you happen to get EGTs before the corn?

Im rewiring my AFR gauge right now so when its all hooked up Ill get a couple runs in to see EGT's look like b4 the corn