Drivers attempt at E85

[driver311]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn On that note..... Driver, how's it going? Been a while since you posted up.

Car has been down for a week. Waiting for my new fmic to get here. Ive been running 30% pretty much solid for like 5 tanks and loving it. I log my car all the facking time and have yet to see knock with new current "high" timing map. I plan on hitting the dyno here again soon for some more tinkering. Im gonna have new fmic and try a hallman bc set at 20-21psi and see what it does.

[11cruzito11]

Originally Posted by driver311 Car has been down for a week. Waiting for my new fmic to get here. Ive been running 30% pretty much solid for like 5 tanks and loving it. I log my car all the facking time and have yet to see knock with new current "high" timing map. I plan on hitting the dyno here again soon for some more tinkering. Im gonna have new fmic and try a hallman bc set at 20-21psi and see what it does.

Which FMIC kit are you getting?

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by Click Here I appreciate that attitude, you're a good sport The problem is that I think most people are going to want to do this with pump rebuild kits, but I'd argue that the data isn't any good. When you consider how often they fail, how can you really come to any conclusion if the pumps fail on just gasoline, let alone alcohol? The quality control of the aftermarket sets just isn't there in my humble opinion. I think someone has to do it right and get factory assembled pumps and run them in two different cars running different fuels. I'd LOVE to see someone do this and finally put this question to bed! Thanks again for the comments Enigma.

Im with ya on this.

Its a Thousand times better to be constructive with criticism rather than go off with worthless riff raff posts and profanity.. like so many wankers on these boards do. lol

The real test, the real way to determine some legitimate data- rather than running 2 different fuels in 2 different cars would to be - buy two pumps, run them in a constant environment - like a garage or other similar test environment.. side by side.. circulating the two different fuels constantly.

Deatchwerks did this on their testing of their new 300lph fuel pump.. they had 10 pumps running side by side 24 hours a day for over 1000 hours each constantly circulating E85. also, you gotta run them in a closed system - as to prevent Alcohol evaporation. ( Not one failure to date i might add)

Running the pumps in seperate cars just invites too many variables into the test.


then, considering how many pump failures you guys are mentioning - you gotta run more than just 2 pumps.. incase one just "craps out" once you get some data together, then you can make a real judgement about if E85 kills Highpressure Cam driven pumps..

then the question continues: IF Straight E85 kills cam driven pumps.. do the Alcohol fuel additives and conditioners mitigate the effects (if any) of the Alcohol?? ..... More tesing!! lol only more testing would tell.

Based on what ive been seeing from the effects of Alcohol on the walboro style pumps.. ive gotta wonder if we'll see any real affect on the cam driven units.


just a humorous note:

Was reading some other threads about the use of Toluene - adding it to pump gas and how it is a proven octane booster, how its commonly used on quite a few vehicles... (this is nothing new)

- So im in Ace hardware the other day and was looking at a can of Toluene - reading the label: "WARNING- EXTREMELY CORROSIVE- TO BE USED AS A PAINT STRIPPER, THINNER AND REMOVER" got me thinking- man.. if Toluene is used as an octane booster.. and its that caustic.. can running Alchy be that bad??? - well, the federal mandated 10% Alcohol addition to ALL pump gas might speak to that..

Cheers,

Enigma

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by EnigmaOperator just a humorous note: Was reading some other threads about the use of Toluene - adding it to pump gas and how it is a proven octane booster, how its commonly used on quite a few vehicles... (this is nothing new) - So im in Ace hardware the other day and was looking at a can of Toluene - reading the label: "WARNING- EXTREMELY CORROSIVE- TO BE USED AS A PAINT STRIPPER, THINNER AND REMOVER" got me thinking- man.. if Toluene is used as an octane booster.. and its that caustic.. can running Alchy be that bad??? - well, the federal mandated 10% Alcohol addition to ALL pump gas might speak to that.. Cheers, Enigma

Toluene isn't a caustic, which would be a strong base. It is a good solvent that will dissolve lots of substances.

Originally Posted by driver311 Car has been down for a week. Waiting for my new fmic to get here. Ive been running 30% pretty much solid for like 5 tanks and loving it. I log my car all the facking time and have yet to see knock with new current "high" timing map. I plan on hitting the dyno here again soon for some more tinkering. Im gonna have new fmic and try a hallman bc set at 20-21psi and see what it does.

Does your "30%" mean 30% volume E85 or have you done the calcs and are actually running 30% ethanol?

My 4.3 gallons of E85 (really E70 in winter) only got me to 20% ethanol (assuming my gas is alky free) even though I had 30% E85 by volume.

Also, I used the MAF curves to adjust fueling at the 20% level (+9%); but this had the undesirable affect of skewing my load curves significantly. Did you go at it another way?

[Click Here]

Originally Posted by EnigmaOperator Im with ya on this...

I like your test setup even better...we just need to find someone that'll do it!

[EEGeek]

I'm sure there are thousands of us reading these threads without ever posting like I do. I just broke down and had to actual "speak". I find this thread very interesting and I HOPE that the answer to all these questions is that yes we can run e85 safely, after some extensive testing. I just wanted to add my humble data point to the mix and state that last week I filled up with 3.5 gallons e85 (whatever blend they currently have during winter months in PHX) and the rest 91. I currently have a CP-E pump, but don't know if ANY thought went into making it more suitable than that stock one for higher alcohol blend ratios.

Impressions:
I had a meth tune (via my Standback) that I hadn't nailed down perfectly that gave ever so slight kr (~.5-1.5 kr via dashawk). I had run out of meth so I decided to run e85 on the tune at the ratio I mentioned above. I have zero kr. I did longer pulls through more gears (usually easy way to build temp and cause kr on same tune with meth) still with no kr. I have unchanged open loop/close loop rpm points but am able to push timing 2-3 degrees between 2k-4k rpm with no kr. I added 1 deg advance on top of previous meth tune above 4k rpm and still no kr. My car feels fast. Any other questions?

I don't plan on running straight e85 for 30-40k miles though as was suggested

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by Click Here I like your test setup even better...we just need to find someone that'll do it!

Yeah Really!

someone should pickup a couple pumps, set up a test rig.. and find some real data.

That would be the be-all-end-all test for the question of Alcohol compliance and pump longevity.

[Nataphen]

Originally Posted by EnigmaOperator Yeah Really! someone should pickup a couple pumps, set up a test rig.. and find some real data. That would be the be-all-end-all test for the question of Alcohol compliance and pump longevity.

Oh, CP-EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE...

[Enki]

What a good way to sell some pumps. HINT HINT

[Nataphen]

Originally Posted by Enki What a good way to sell some pumps. HINT HINT

They're back ordered for about 100 years, so unfortunately, they really don't need to do anything to sell more pumps yet. If we could get CPE on this, it would be awesome. CPE's R&D>everyone else's R&D.

[spiker98]

Im sure they will get on that. Right after the injector seals.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Nataphen They're back ordered for about 100 years, so unfortunately, they really don't need to do anything to sell more pumps yet. If we could get CPE on this, it would be awesome. CPE's R&D>everyone else's R&D.

yesssssss...that's why it takes 2 years to get a part...

[driver311]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Toluene isn't a caustic, which would be a strong base. It is a good solvent that will dissolve lots of substances. Does your "30%" mean 30% volume E85 or have you done the calcs and are actually running 30% ethanol? My 4.3 gallons of E85 (really E70 in winter) only got me to 20% ethanol (assuming my gas is alky free) even though I had 30% E85 by volume. Also, I used the MAF curves to adjust fueling at the 20% level (+9%); but this had the undesirable affect of skewing my load curves significantly. Did you go at it another way?

4 gallons of e85 to a full tank. Im really curious to see if I get any knock in summer with this mixture. I know my car sure runs killer with just this little amount and 0 knock is great.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by driver311 4 gallons of e85 to a full tank. Im really curious to see if I get any knock in summer with this mixture. I know my car sure runs killer with just this little amount and 0 knock is great.

Are you doing anything to adjust fueling?

MAF curve correction or AFR target shift?

[zx2man]

Any updates?? Found a e85 shell station about 7 miles away for 3.30 gallon

[djuosnteisn]

I have an update....

The guy i earlier claimed had a failed pump after trying e85 actually had a failed relief valve. AFAIK, his pump was fine.

[cld12pk2go]

I went as high as 5.2 gallons E70, which resulted in 35.9% "E85" in the tank but actually 25% ethanol by volume...

It works, but I didn't like our tuning options to dial fueling in so I am currently back to straight 93...

[djuosnteisn]

How much of a difference did you see in your AFRs?

Any KR? Cause honestly, if it leaned out to like low to mid 12's, but with zero KR, i'd prob just run it like that hahaha.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn How much of a difference did you see in your AFRs? Any KR? Cause honestly, if it leaned out to like low to mid 12's, but with zero KR, i'd prob just run it like that hahaha.

I really didn't see an elimination of KR at WOT, which is kind of odd and makes me wonder if I am getting spurious 0-2KR from injector seals...

I actually didn't see my AFRs move under WOT, yet I did see my LTFT move to ~12% in OL...This wasn't logical, and I wasn't comfortable being a test mule for this so I bailed...

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go I really didn't see an elimination of KR at WOT, which is kind of odd and makes me wonder if I am getting spurious 0-2KR from injector seals... I actually didn't see my AFRs move under WOT, yet I did see my LTFT move to ~12% in OL...This wasn't logical, and I wasn't comfortable being a test mule for this so I bailed...

It's your seals, 99% certain. E-85 is my method of choice for determining if KR is mechanical or timing related.

Pulling timing sometimes gives hints, like if the KR doesn't go away like you'd expect. But it's not 100% since seal pops are power related (cylinder pressure related) and sometimes pulling timing will get rid of KR caused by seals.

However if KR is present even with a 3 gallon mix to raise the octane of the fuel, then you can be pretty much certain it's a mechanical cause (seals or something banging in engine bay, etc).

[cld12pk2go]

One other thing I tried but didn't mention, was to run my CL Max Load/Throttle tables to never leave CL so as to keep my fuel trims active for the higher levels of E85...

It seemed to work for the most part, but I started occasionally bumping into the Max Ignition tables timing limits on WOT pulls (maybe 1 out of 3), which had never happened before...

[Dano]

interesting safety measure there...i like!

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go One other thing I tried but didn't mention, was to run my CL Max Load/Throttle tables to never leave CL so as to keep my fuel trims active for the higher levels of E85... It seemed to work for the most part, but I started occasionally bumping into the Max Ignition tables timing limits on WOT pulls (maybe 1 out of 3), which had never happened before...

Yeah, i've been wanting to try keeping the car in CL completely for a while. Just never had a fucking car to try it on lol. But IMO, a full CL tune, with a knock sensor active to redline is a great fail safe for wmi faults.


Glad to see you experimenting with some interesting ideas 12pk. If you want to try it some more, you should make a thread on it.

So your saying your timing was advancing beyond the high throttle ign table? Weird.

[zx2man]

hmmmmm I dont have any knock. So should I still try e85 for shits n giggles? Its been a year and half since I got my car tuned by Tim Bailey, and data log my car now and then, and always 0 knock from 0-6700 rpm 1-6th gears. I just wanted to see if my car actrully gains alittle more power.

[Dano]

+1 on another 12pk win thread...brought to you in HD no doubt.

Originally Posted by zx2man hmmmmm I dont have any knock. So should I still try e85 for shits n giggles? Its been a year and half since I got my car tuned by Tim Bailey, and data log my car now and then, and always 0 knock from 0-6700 rpm 1-6th gears. I just wanted to see if my car actrully gains alittle more power.

hahaha

sounds like you need more timing boost or both

j/k

since we produce most of the components of E85 here, shouldn't the prices stay about the same and not sky rocket up like petrol.......nah....that would make too much sense and the greedy oil companies wouldn't make a killing...

/rant over

[driver311]

Ive been running tank after tank of 3 gallons of e85 to a full tank. NO knock and still pushing 14 degrees max timing at 18psi. Afrs set to 12.0 and they hold there perfectly. I have been dialing in my cars suspension and a few friends for autocross and havent really had time to play any more. When I have some time I will get back on it. But for now Im happy cause the car feels great.

[djuosnteisn]

3 gal to a tank seems like an excellent mix.

[11cruzito11]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I have an update.... The guy i earlier claimed had a failed pump after trying e85 actually had a failed relief valve. AFAIK, his pump was fine.

Yeah, I provided him with my extra relief valve.

[Novej]

Wow its so serious you can now monitor how much alcohol content is actually in your E85. How nice would it be to fill up, see whats actually in the tank and then choose the appropriate map to run..........

Zeitronix Ethanol Content Analyzer Installed and Reviewed by TTP! - evolutionm.net

Hopefully one day we too will be able to run enough E85 where this would be a necessity

[zx2man]

few days ago I did 1.5 gallons e85 to 3.5 gal 92oct. My tank was VERY close to empty when I did this, so Im close to 30% mix I assume. Anyways ive just been "live" datalogging on my ap couple times-afr's seem to be around high 11s. Here soon Ill do another mix, and datalog a 3rd gear wot pull for you guys. So far, I like it..maybe its placebo effect, but car pulls better=more peppy..so far so good.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by zx2man I like it..maybe its placebo effect, but car pulls better=more peppy..so far so good.

I don't think it's placebo considering everyone who's tried it says the same thing. Wish someone would try to quantify it somehow though.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn . Wish someone would try to quantify it somehow though.

therein lies the problem....AFAIK 12pk hasn't even seen any AFR shift with his mix....or did I miss something?

I think you need to either crank the boost or timing up to see/feel a noticeable difference, AND only take it so far on a street tune.

IMO Dyno data is really needed to quantify any appreciable results. I mean if it never knocks you don't know you went too far until its too late LOL

[driver311]

Im definately able to run a more aggressive map on the mixture I run, and the car straight up feels faster with the small amount of e85 in there. I dont know why but it does and Im not complaining one bit. LOL

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 therein lies the problem....AFAIK 12pk hasn't even seen any AFR shift with his mix....or did I miss something? I think you need to either crank the boost or timing up to see/feel a noticeable difference, AND only take it so far on a street tune. IMO Dyno data is really needed to quantify any appreciable results. I mean if it never knocks you don't know you went too far until its too late LOL

When I was at 5.2 gallons of E70 (25% ethanol in tank), my CL LTFT would go up to ~+11 (exactly as prediction would call for), but my OL fueling/AFR would stay about the same...it was odd.

[djuosnteisn]

Very odd......

[mrQQ]

so aside for increasing timing/boost to have a benefit, do you necessarily have to increase fuel delivery, or will ecu cope with that on itself?

also, everyone talking about specific afr numbers - are you recalculating those for your mix or still refering to pure petrol afrs? wouldnt it make more sense to talk in lambda? if 11.5 afr on petrol is safe, thats like 0.79 lambda. and what defines "safe" - an afr, or a lambda? if its afr you definitely need to recalc for different mix.. if its lambda, then you just need to be sure your reported afr (which is just lambda recalced to afr by your gauge) stays where it has to be.. am i correct?

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by mrQQ so aside for increasing timing/boost to have a benefit, do you necessarily have to increase fuel delivery, or will ecu cope with that on itself? also, everyone talking about specific afr numbers - are you recalculating those for your mix or still refering to pure petrol afrs? wouldnt it make more sense to talk in lambda? if 11.5 afr on petrol is safe, thats like 0.79 lambda. and what defines "safe" - an afr, or a lambda? if its afr you definitely need to recalc for different mix.. if its lambda, then you just need to be sure your reported afr (which is just lambda recalced to afr by your gauge) stays where it has to be.. am i correct?

Our WB02 will report lambda * 14.68, so 11.8:1 is still ~0.8 lambda for example.

My experience is that up to ~20-25% ethanol in the tank, my WOT OL AFR didn't shift significantly when they should have. I wish someone else would try to see if they get similar results.

[mrQQ]

I'm going to attempt to fill 30% E85, but before that I need better understanding on hour ECU works, and if I need to reflash it for more fuel flow, or not. I would think that I need to reflash it for OL to be safe, but you're saying OL AFR didnt change.. I want to know and be safe.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by mrQQ I'm going to attempt to fill 30% E85, but before that I need better understanding on hour ECU works, and if I need to reflash it for more fuel flow, or not. I would think that I need to reflash it for OL to be safe, but you're saying OL AFR didnt change.. I want to know and be safe.

Assuming you are in a region that currently uses E70, you would need 4.2 gallons to give a 30% E85 in your tank (on a fill up), which will result in 20.3% ethanol.

This should require an additional 8.5% fueling, which really should require fueling changes.

Personally, I would add ~2 gallons on a fill up just to see how it behaves instead of making a leap to ~30% by volume.

A ~4% shift in fueling shouldn't be a problem without a tune change.

[mrQQ]

Good idea.

How did you get to the 8,5% figure? Is 8,5% really to difficult for ECU to cope with? What headroom do we have with our injectors/hpfp?

I've driven around a bit with my Dashawk, just to get to know how the ECU behaves. One strange thing I've noticed - LTFTs jump around. I thought they should just settle eventually? I thought there are ranges of MAF g/s, in which LTFTs are settling in, but these seem to jump for me from -0,8 to -1,6 to -5,5 on same range of g/s..

am I misreading anything?