Drivers attempt at E85

[cld12pk2go]

Look at the .xls file I attached earlier in this thread for how to calculate the fueling changes.

In CL, the computer will use the STFT and LTFT to adjust to AFR target. In WOT conditions (after a delay), the computer switches to OL, which should not adjust AFR if it is off target.

Since you mentioned Dashhawk, I assume you do not have any tuning device to adjust your tune.

If this is the case and considering how basic the questions you are asking are, I really wouldn't suggest you play with (fire) E85 at this time until you have read up enough to understand the consequences of your actions and how the computer logic works.

If you goof it up, you can expect upwards of $7k to replace your engine.

[mrQQ]

Hi,

you're right, this is dangerous territory, and you're very nice to be warning me.

I'm not jumping into anything. I'll buy VersaTune eventually (soon enough), so just wanted to start reading and understanding.

Ugnius from VersaTune said, that ECU adjusts AFR using LTFT in OL aswell, so that might be reason why you're not seeing AFR change with mild mixes. With more aggressive mixes your LTFTS might be out of max ranges and/or not learned enough..

I want to try a very mild mix, to see if stock tune can adjust it via LTFTs..

[Dano]

Originally Posted by mrQQ Hi, you're right, this is dangerous territory, and you're very nice to be warning me. I'm not jumping into anything. I'll buy VersaTune eventually (soon enough), so just wanted to start reading and understanding. Ugnius from VersaTune said, that ECU adjusts AFR using LTFT in OL aswell, so that might be reason why you're not seeing AFR change with mild mixes. With more aggressive mixes your LTFTS might be out of max ranges and/or not learned enough.. I want to try a very mild mix, to see if stock tune can adjust it via LTFTs..

woooooah...there...do not pass go...do not buy VersaTune.....why??? buy either of the 2 proven solutions that work.

a tuning solution is only as powerful as its user base....

now back to our regularly scheduled thread.....

[mrQQ]

the other tuning solutions started from nothing aswell besides, in this case, I'm 100% certain the developer knows what he's doing

[phate]

I started playing with E85 before my computer started hating my Accessport. Sent in for repairs and just got it back - working fine, now. I live in the center of the corn belt, so E85 is everywhere around here. I'll post up some datalogs and thoughts in the next week or two, if we can get some decent weather.


Me rambling about calculated comparisons:

As for non-dyno comparisons, has anyone considered just comparing acceleration rates in a specific gear? This could be done the overly simplified method of saying x2 ending mph @ y2 ending time [minus] x1 starting mph @ y1 starting time. Or, have excel calculate an equation of your vehicle speed, derive and plot (1st derivative of speed is accleration), compare acceleration rates. Data sets would need to be normalized for the second method, but it should work well, and give some information as to what specific rpm range is picking up in accleration.

Both of these methods require a number of data sets to ensure quality, consistent data. At the very least it should answer, yes or no, whether everyone is experiencing the placebo affect.

[phate]

Just as a warning to anyone considering running E85, you quite possibly need to run some sort of additive to aid in lubrication if you want to mostly ethanol. I was running a 50% ethanol mix for a while and everything was fine. I began running straight e85 and my fuel pump took a shit in ~35 miles. Luckily,

[mrQQ]

perhaps it had to run @100% all the time?

[bmylez]

phate: need updates. People are saying the o-rings died. Did they die or did the moving parts get worn out?

[phate]

Originally Posted by bmylez phate: need updates. People are saying the o-rings died. Did they die or did the moving parts get worn out?

Neither, I think...O-rings looked fine and the metal parts looked pretty darn good. I started a thread here: http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...-issues-79030/. I have the relief valve sitting on my desk, but I don't have a compressor in my apartment's garage to test it. I'm going to have it tested tomorrow.

[bmylez]

So that means that e85 might still be safe on the HPFP.

[driver311]

Ok some updates. Car has a new turbo. Im currently running atps new ewg back half 3076r. Powerband is definately different than the 3071r. Its hard to say if the turbo actually made the car faster. At 18psi for 18psi Id have to say the 3071r made more usable power. The car straight felt faster. But past 19psi the 3076r does feel faster and holds boost much better then the iwg 3071. At my altitude I had a hard time holding more than 20psi without huge spikes in boost of 24-25psi. I didnt want that at all. So I like how the ewg atp holds boost kick ass. Anyways on to the goods.

Car is currently running 21-22psi on a mix of 50/50 e85/pump, and it feels hella good. Just like I remember last time running it. This is the farthest I have went and Im on my second full tank. And the 93 octane Im running with it has 10% e85 in it also. All is well and the afrs and ltft are perfect. So I mix 6 gallons of e85 with 6 gallons of pump every time I fill up. Im able to run max timing of 14.5 degrees even on 100 degree days with 0 knock. Thats pretty effing cool. I went out and raced my buddies vette the other day that traps close to 120 and put 1 car on him. So its flying. My max gs before on a 85 degree day was around 290gs at 20psi. NOw at 20psi im seeing well over 340gs solid. In fact the other night I was seeing right at 360gs. CAr is loving it. Seat of the pants straight up says it faster. Dyno results will come when I get a nice cool day and some extra time and money. Im super excited to see what it does. My guess based off old results is the car is making about 425whp at 21psi. WE will see soon enough.

If anyones curious all I did to get my fuel trims right was multiply my maf scaling by 1.12 to get it spot on. Car runs perfect, and for now plan to stick with this mixture. NO need to go farther when Im maxing timing out with 0 knock and hoping to have no isues with fuel components on only 50%. Ill post long term results as time passes.

[Mizzle]

Just to get it out there, that'd be a tank full of E47.5

The whole 50/50 E85/pump thing bothered me... moving along...

[driver311]

Ps. Went to track yesterday on 20psi and was running 114-115 traps with horrible track prep and 93 degree temps. Car is making alot of power. Soon as I can get some cool temps and good track prep, 118-120 traps will follow. My car was worthless out there in 1st and 2nd boucing off limiter. Just couldnt get any hook. Im sure -3 degrees of camber didnt help. LOL

Ps. I raced an 03 r6 on the way home from track twice and put two cars on him. Two fellow members witnessed the ass whooping. CAr is ripping hard.

[bewsted]

Originally Posted by driver311 Ok some updates. Car has a new turbo. Im currently running atps new ewg back half 3076r. Powerband is definately different than the 3071r. Its hard to say if the turbo actually made the car faster. At 18psi for 18psi Id have to say the 3071r made more usable power. The car straight felt faster. But past 19psi the 3076r does feel faster and holds boost much better then the iwg 3071. At my altitude I had a hard time holding more than 20psi without huge spikes in boost of 24-25psi. I didnt want that at all. So I like how the ewg atp holds boost kick ass. Anyways on to the goods. Car is currently running 21-22psi on a mix of 50/50 e85/pump, and it feels hella good. Just like I remember last time running it. This is the farthest I have went and Im on my second full tank. And the 93 octane Im running with it has 10% e85 in it also. All is well and the afrs and ltft are perfect. So I mix 6 gallons of e85 with 6 gallons of pump every time I fill up. Im able to run max timing of 14.5 degrees even on 100 degree days with 0 knock. Thats pretty effing cool. I went out and raced my buddies vette the other day that traps close to 120 and put 1 car on him. So its flying. My max gs before on a 85 degree day was around 290gs at 20psi. NOw at 20psi im seeing well over 340gs solid. In fact the other night I was seeing right at 360gs. CAr is loving it. Seat of the pants straight up says it faster. Dyno results will come when I get a nice cool day and some extra time and money. Im super excited to see what it does. My guess based off old results is the car is making about 425whp at 21psi. WE will see soon enough. If anyones curious all I did to get my fuel trims right was multiply my maf scaling by 1.12 to get it spot on. Car runs perfect, and for now plan to stick with this mixture. NO need to go farther when Im maxing timing out with 0 knock and hoping to have no isues with fuel components on only 50%. Ill post long term results as time passes.

Sounds like your doing something right.....I am running about 40-50% e85 on the genpoo. Just curious what the most timing you've run is. I for some reason kept getting the feeling past 15.5 the car wasn't gaining anything. Just curious to what your thoughts are?

[driver311]

Past 14.5 there are no gains. Ive tried on the dyno twice.

[bewsted]

LOL funny thing....I just went back to targeting 14.5 with my last map....And noticed instantly it was pulling harder. 11.8 afr seam to be the sweet spot for your or you pushing it farther LOL

[driver311]

Im at 12.3 afr, 14.5 max timing and 1800psi on e85. It doesnt like being rich and car is loving this tune.

[bewsted]

Meth as well?

Sent from my T-Mobile G1 using Tapatalk

[cld12pk2go]

Driver,

It sounds like you are about where I am ethanol wise....

I have been filling up my last 3 tanks with 6 gallons E85 and ~6.2-6.5 gallons 93 octane. So I am in the ~40% ethanol ballpark.

My question is what are your injector duty cycle % numbers? Mine are ~70% with a K04, I would expect you are ~90%.

[bewsted]

I'm just curious as to what you guys were doing without meth?

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by driver311 My max gs before on a 85 degree day was around 290gs at 20psi. NOw at 20psi im seeing well over 340gs solid. In fact the other night I was seeing right at 360gs. .... If anyones curious all I did to get my fuel trims right was multiply my maf scaling by 1.12 to get it spot on.....

So using that same 12% increase on your previous g/s (290 * 1.12) yields ~325, and assuming your hitting 350 routinely right now, means you picked up about 25 g/s with the new setup.

Not too shabby man.

[Navy_Mech2]

hmmmm the gate station by my house just put in an e85 pump...

[driver311]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Driver, It sounds like you are about where I am ethanol wise.... I have been filling up my last 3 tanks with 6 gallons E85 and ~6.2-6.5 gallons 93 octane. So I am in the ~40% ethanol ballpark. My question is what are your injector duty cycle % numbers? Mine are ~70% with a K04, I would expect you are ~90%.

Took two logs today. Im about 85%. This is at 1800psi.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn So using that same 12% increase on your previous g/s (290 * 1.12) yields ~325, and assuming your hitting 350 routinely right now, means you picked up about 25 g/s with the new setup. Not too shabby man.

Thats what I was thinking. It definately pulling harder. Im gonna rerace the e55 I raced the other night on pump. WE were neck and neck. So I will see how it goes this time. Hoping to put 2-3 cars on him.

[djuosnteisn]

I would think 2-3 cars is more than 25 whp.... So if you put that much on him, there may be even more power gained other than airflow alone.

[bewsted]

12.3 afr targets is captian insano...I'm nervous as shit to go above 12 lol

[11cruzito11]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Driver, It sounds like you are about where I am ethanol wise.... I have been filling up my last 3 tanks with 6 gallons E85 and ~6.2-6.5 gallons 93 octane. So I am in the ~40% ethanol ballpark. My question is what are your injector duty cycle % numbers? Mine are ~70% with a K04, I would expect you are ~90%.

Is an increase of injector duty cycle % an indicator of power increase?

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by 11cruzito11 Is an increase of injector duty cycle % an indicator of power increase?

Basically, both more airflow and higher ethanol in the gas require a longer injector pulsewidth (and thus duty cycle) to sustain an AFR target.

So if you are keeping the fuel type the same and not changing your AFR, then any injector duty cycle change can be attributed to air flow, which should correlate with power potential.

Now if your injector duty cycle goes up simply b/c of the fuel type change, then that doesn't necessarily mean power is higher. It simply means more volumetric fuel flow is required to deliver the proper fueling. In my case, I added 7% on my MAF curve from ~0-80g/s and my CL LTFTs are in the ~+7% range (I split the difference between gas and E40 to keep the trims tolerable).

My OL AFRs still haven't budged and the ECU is somehow knowing to increase injector pw ~15% to keep my AFRs on target...

[Snyeed]

Can we get some pictures of the new turbo setup please.

[jracer]

pics of new turbo back half ??.........

[driver311]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I would think 2-3 cars is more than 25 whp.... So if you put that much on him, there may be even more power gained other than airflow alone.

Rematch tomorrow night. we will see. Ill be happy just pulling him at all. That will to me be as good as a dyno. If I pull him at all, itll prove more power is being made. Literally from 45-140 we were neck and neck. So wel will see.

[driver311]

Took some logs in 85 degree temps a minute ago. Let me tell you what. This car flat out rips like a mother fucker at 21psi. I was seeing consistant over 355gs and from 5500-6700 I was seeing over 365gs with peak at 371gs. WTF. LOL Im so pumped car is running insanely fast. YEssssss!!!!!!!

[Navy_Mech2]

shit man that thing is movin some air!

[driver311]

Yes sir it is. Im extremely happy. Gonna pull her back to 19-20psi on the street and run 22-23psi at track. Its just to fast at 22psi for daily use and its to much wear and tear. LOL

[Dano]

I keep hearing about how fast it runs but no logs with g/s to back it up...hum

and if you post up we want to see MAF vt, AFR Actual and what is commanded.

no funny business.

hahah glad to see your progress man!

[driver311]

Just for you Ill post some tonight. Its not pretty lol

[Dano]

hahah

I'm just kinda sorta fucking with you.

[801MS3]

Ive seen the logs.. He saw 386 g/s this morning... Pretty nasty..

[phate]

Everything is skewed with E85. I see over 400g/s with a K04, haha. :/

Driver, sounds like a fun car!

[bewsted]

I hit around 300 on my ko4 with 5 gallons.

[djuosnteisn]

I saw 500 once when the load cap was still unknown.