Drivers attempt at E85

[driver311]

So after talking to several of my friends with evos who run it and my buddy with a direct injected turbo cobalt who runs 50/50 e85/pump, I decided to just try it. My buddy with the cobalt said he just started at 10% and went up for there and stopped at 50/50. He told me his car pulls way harder on e85, especially after adding some timing. Anyways so i headed to the pump.

I decided to just start at roughly 25% e85 and see what it does for me. I threw in 3 gallons of e85 and then topped my tank off with 93 octane and off I went. Started by driving around for 10 miles to see what my afrs and stft's looked like. Everything seemed exactly the same, but I didnt know what to expect. I just figured it would lean out a bit, but so far all was the same. Anyways I did one log on the way to the station just for comparison. I have many many logs and my shit always seems pretty close. Tune is pretty good. But for some reason on this one log I got a little bit of knock in 4th. Weird thing is this is the first time with my new tune Ive logged any knock. So im not gonna even worry about it cause im sure it was nothing, and it didnt do it in 5th or on any of the logs afterwards. So here is what I have so far. Ill post more as it comes. This tank will be all 25% e85. Then Ill slowly go up from here.

First log was all pump 93 octane on 19psi. Then the next two logs are on 25% e85 same boost.

[Haltech]

How did the car react? Any butt dyno gains?

[driver311]

It felt faster to me. But wtf do I know. Im gonna shoot for 50/50 mix and if I can get there I will do some before and after on the dyno with no change in timing then do some pulls with more timing. Then see what the gains truely are. But Ill say this, my car has never "blown the tires on 3rd gear pulls. Spin yes but not blow them off. It did it on my first three pulls tonite after putting the e85 in. So either I had oil on my tires or it pulled harder. The logs look like it was making more power but why?????? The cool thing is it worked and my ltft's werent way off and neither was my afr. Soo thats a good start.

[bmylez]

I see a slight difference. Your max airflow in the 93 oct run was 326 g/s with an AFR of 11.76. The max airflow in the 2nd run was 346 g/s with an AFR of 12.2. That's actually a fairly significant power gain if all else is held constant.

[driver311]

Look at maf gs before and after across the board per gear. Its straight up higher! Dont know why but it is. My buddy said his disi cobalt did the same thing. More to come.

[Haltech]

Keep your eye on your MAF voltage and see if it starts to peg out when you are at 50/50

[IshiKage]

so the fuel system doesnt need to be modded running 50/50 mix or lower?

[bmylez]

Yeah, you're damn close to pegging the MAF. It's at 4.73 at 346 g/s. Wouldn't be surprised if it's exactly at the max once you go 50/50. Pretty sure breaking the tires loose in 3rd was not a coincidence. You are making more power. Once I go BT, I'm thinkin of throwing some nitromethane in my meth tank and see what happens . A little pricey, but maybe if you felt like experimenting more, haha. A half gallon of that stuff would make a noticeable difference.

[IshiKage]

'only pussies use nitrometh'

[bmylez]

Haha, or top fuel dragsters!

It's explosive, which scares me a bit, but I'd probably only run it a couple times just to see what it did. It's super duper corrosive as well, which isn't good for a DD.

Driver, I say just stick with E85 for reliability's sake . You would definitely gain even more power with nitro with your turbo, but it's also unnecessary. Throw that bitch on a dyno!

[Lex]

My biggest concern is how the friction parts will take the alcohol. Injectors, CDFP, cylinder walls etc. Keep us posted. Your AFRs and trims should increase as you mix more. Just don't let the car sit for too long, ethanol fuel separates after a while.

[zumin]

they closed the only e85 station around here :/

wonder how this would do with a stock tune??

[rodrigo]

the logs def show more power. what i cant believe are some of the load values u see on that fucken log man 2.5 at some spots , holy shit man u got torque up the ass!!!

shit looks promising!!

[IshiKage]

so the fuel system doesnt need to be modded running 50/50 mix or lower?

bump

[Lex]

Driver, log or show your target WOT AFRs. Dano is seeing a lot less g/s with 4.78V from the MAF. I wonder how spot on your MAF cal is in the upper RPMs. I see LTFTs in the -8.7% in the last log before you go WOT also indicating the MAF curve is a little generous.

[driver311]

Originally Posted by Lex Driver, log or show your target WOT AFRs. Dano is seeing a lot less g/s with 4.78V from the MAF. I wonder how spot on your MAF cal is in the upper RPMs. I see LTFTs in the -8.7% in the last log before you go WOT also indicating the MAF curve is a little generous.

It only does that when i shift. My afrs are exactly on par with my commanded. My ltft's were .16 across the board. The maf is calibrated perfectly.

[Darksun280]

fuel lines on most cars have to be changed not sure why you MS3 owners would be any different.

[supraman]

subbin

[djuosnteisn]

I still don't think your making any more power from the fuel alone. MAF g/s does seem higher, but it could be from a drop in amb temps, and a lil more boost. Driver, you use a MBC? Or is the ecu controlling your boost?

From what i've read, e85 has less energy than pump gas, and gains result purely from the higher octane rating... allowing for higher boost and more aggressive timing, which would other wise be knock limited on pump.



I do think it's a cheap way to increase the octane, and in small amounts like 25%, there would likely be little need to tweak the tune... other than taking advantage of the higher octane of course


Sorry to be a downer on instant increase in power from e85, but the only car's i've seen who benefit from it "instantly" are those with ecu's that continually push timing until they sense knock (like the 335).


But i have been wrong many times before lol. Just saying this could still be a sugar pill until proven on the rollers. I'd love to see back to back pulls with pump vs e85, with all else held constant.

[bmylez]

Well, lookin at the logs, his boost pressure at peak airflow in the 93 oct run is 19.37psi whereas in the E85 log, it's 21.31psi.

A dyno is definitely the only way to prove anything, though....but he did say he breaks 3rd loose more easily

[djuosnteisn]

I'm just trying to keep it somewhat objective lol. Nothing i've read has made me think there is power without tuning, but who knows... like i said... i've been wrong many many times before

[rodrigo]

one lil thing i noticed on the first log, kr ended at 5680..... do u have the kr sensor set to redline or oem setting?

[Lex]

Dustin is correct. Unless the ECU is pulling timing, E85 alone will not give you more power. With it you can push more boost and timing while avoiding knock and this where the gains come from.

[Haltech]

All you need to lubricate the alc in the fuel system is 1 cap full of marvels mystery oil per gallon of E85. In my cobra days we were messing around with fuel mixtures of the track and a guy who i bought xylene, toluene, etc from told me to add that shit. We even would ad nitrometh to the cars fuel tank... our mix was:

2 Gallon Toluene
2.5 Gallons of Xylene
1/2 Gallon of nitro meth
8 Gallons of 91 octane gasoline.

Saw a 4/10th reduction in ET and 38hp on the dyno from this fuel alone without any timing adjustments or boost increase. Shit works if you find the mix.

[madvillain]

This is interesting. Definitely not saying you're wrong, Driver. But when I fill up with 100 octane from the pump, which I've done many, many times, I notice little of a power difference between that and 91 octane, if one at all. Just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy less knock, well, no knock.

I just wanted to bring that up because its significant in terms of the octane related argument. Of course, there could be other things at hand here, as I don't know anything of the properties of e85.

Either way, I'm stoked to see a few of you experimenting. I would love to do the same... when I build up the balls. I'm just waiting to see what you guys can do (:

[Click Here]

I think ethanol does have some benefits even without any tuning. Whether these power advantages are measurable in practice, I guess is a different question...

1. Ethanol has less energy than gas does per volume, but when mixed at a stoich ratio the ethanol mixture is going to release more energy by about 5% over gasoline.

2. Ethanol generates lower exhaust gas temperatures as compared to gas, and also increases the total exhaust volume, which can be particularly beneficial for turbos.

3. Ethanol's evaporative cooling advantage is only amplified by the high-pressure DI system, which can cool the air charge and ultimately increase VE.

4. Ethanol burns much more efficiently (faster) at richer mixtures than gas does.

5. Ethanol's initial burn time is much slower than gasoline which reduces the amount of negative work done on the piston at the end of the compression stroke.

And I think what Driver is doing is bad ass.

[driver311]

All seems to be well now after 50 or so miles. CAr is running good and logs look strong.

[djuosnteisn]

^ much more convincing than butt dyno lol.

I would still like to see this quantified on a dyno if possible. Same everything, except fuel.

[Stealth01]

I thought that about ten years ago, all fuel systems were required to be able to handle ethanol, since it is put in most gasoline, often as much as 10% during the summer months?

[driver311]

Here are a few more logs with the boost turned down a touch. Still roughtly 25% e85. After this tank Im gonna put another gallon into the mix and see how it goes. Ultimate goal 50% e85.

[Darksun280]

I always thought the fuel pumps had to be different but now I learned the stock ones are ok. So now its a matter of Driver feeling frisky and throwing 25 Degrees of timing at the car. Good luck who knows how this car reacts to high timing.

Also e85 will fuck up the HPFP it's just not an instant thing. I doubt even with in 2 years would you see the effect of it not lubricating the piston properly but then again that fucker rev's at an insane speed so wear might show quicker than i expect.

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by 240mazspd3 so the fuel system doesnt need to be modded running 50/50 mix or lower?

Correct. your stock fuel system is completely safe running a a 50/50 E85 & Premium fuel mix.

Originally Posted by Lex My biggest concern is how the friction parts will take the alcohol. Injectors, CDFP, cylinder walls etc. ....Just don't let the car sit for too long, ethanol fuel separates after a while.

^ That is not a concern. As of the inception of OBDII cars, Manufacturers were required to build fuel systems and engines capable of handling and adapting to the ethanol which is added to all forms of gasoline in both winter and summer mixes.(summer depending on location)

Chemically, ethanol is really no more corrosive than gasoline, meaning it's not. Both are solvents and not an acid -

as for ethanol fuel seperation - its as common as premium fuel seperation. basically, cars can sit for a very long time before that happens. with as frequently as you drive your car (probably a DD) you may never experience that.

Originally Posted by Darksun280 fuel lines on most cars have to be changed not sure why you MS3 owners would be any different.

FALSE.

modern fuel lines in all cars post 1990 are capable of handling ethanol fuels- PER manufacturer requirements. replacing a fuel line with an upgraded line such as stainless is something some folks do for peace of mind - but speaking of mind - keep in mind that even stainless lines have fuel tubing / rubber inner linings.. again capable of handling E85.

Originally Posted by Haltech All you need to lubricate the alc in the fuel system is 1 cap full of marvels mystery oil per gallon of E85.

FALSE.

though a novel idea, E85 is STILL 15% Premium gasoline. that 15% is left in there for a reason: lubrication for parts that need it.. fuel pumps etc.

Originally Posted by Click Here I think ethanol does have some benefits even without any tuning. Whether these power advantages are measurable in practice, I guess is a different question... 1. Ethanol has less energy than gas does per volume, but when mixed at a stoich ratio the ethanol mixture is going to release more energy by about 5% over gasoline. 2. Ethanol generates lower exhaust gas temperatures as compared to gas, and also increases the total exhaust volume, which can be particularly beneficial for turbos. 3. Ethanol's evaporative cooling advantage is only amplified by the high-pressure DI system, which can cool the air charge and ultimately increase VE. 4. Ethanol burns much more efficiently (faster) at richer mixtures than gas does. 5. Ethanol's initial burn time is much slower than gasoline which reduces the amount of negative work done on the piston at the end of the compression stroke. And I think what Driver is doing is bad ass.

^ that is absolutely correct. Additionally, E85's natural octane rating is 105. so as is, it has an octatne rating similar to 100 octane racing fuel. where E85 really shines is its inherent cooling properties.. through its cooling effects on the head's and combustion chamber E85 runs much like 116 Octane - much like Sunoco's 116 octane racing fuel. Many tuners running 100% E85 are maxing exact power levels as they are with 116 Octane race gas. The difference being in the price. 116 can be INCREDIBLY expensive sometimes as much as 10-20 dollars a gallon depending on location. - E85 is 2 bucks a gallon.

basically, many folks in the know consider it cheap race gas from the pump.

Originally Posted by Stealth01 I thought that about ten years ago, all fuel systems were required to be able to handle ethanol, since it is put in most gasoline, often as much as 10% during the summer months?

Stealth is correct. as i previously mentioned, fuel systems were brought up to speed and designed to be able to handle Ethanol fuels in the 1990's. Many times, that ethanol is added in the Winter months however.

Sounds like Stealth may know his stuff.

Originally Posted by Darksun280 I always thought the fuel pumps had to be different but now I learned the stock ones are ok. So now its a matter of Driver feeling frisky and throwing 25 Degrees of timing at the car. Good luck who knows how this car reacts to high timing.

Yes. the stock fuel pump can handle ethanol fuel. However, often the pump is upraded to support applications which require high fuel flow.

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Also e85 will fuck up the HPFP it's just not an instant thing. I doubt even with in 2 years would you see the effect of it not lubricating the piston properly but then again that fucker rev's at an insane speed so wear might show quicker than i expect.

Fuel pumps have gone, but they have also failed under normal Premium gasoline use too. but consider this- many folks running E85 in their high WHP application EVO's STi's Porsches, BMW's and GT-R's are using pumps for 5 years at a time without failure. Additionally, Deatchwerks now makes a pump specifically designed for E85 use - negating the arguement that E85 kills fuel pumps. Besides, even if it were to kill pumps, a Walboro 225lph pump costs 90 bucks. if it fails in 5 years - thats 18 dollars a year in fuel pump costs. or 0.04 cents per day.




hope that helps to set the E85 record straight. It seems there is quite a bit of aprehension on this board against E85, which really is a shame- considering it can make more power than Meth injection systems (without fear of a meth injection system hiccup) , its Knock proof, and it's basically like race fuel that costs $2.30 a gallon.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by EnigmaOperator hope that helps to set the E85 record straight. It seems there is quite a bit of aprehension on this board against E85, which really is a shame- considering it can make more power than Meth injection systems (without fear of a meth injection system hiccup) , its Knock proof, and it's basically like race fuel that costs $2.30 a gallon.

Good post. Thanks!

Unfortunately we DI guys need the meth injection anyway to keep our intake valves from caking.

[EnigmaOperator]

Originally Posted by Matt Good post. Thanks! Unfortunately we DI guys need the meth injection anyway to keep our intake valves from caking.

Keep in mind that E85's denatured fuel ethanol works to clean the intake system and combustion chamber very much like a methanol does.


not only does it make power, it cleans as it does it.


also, a can of BG 44k once every 6 months is also an effective cleaner

[Matt]

Originally Posted by EnigmaOperator Keep in mind that E85's denatured fuel ethanol works to clean the intake system and combustion chamber very much like a methanol does. not only does it make power, it cleans as it does it. also, a can of BG 44k once every 6 months will mitigate any caking for ya.

The difference is where the injection takes place. What you're talking about is Port injection, which cleans the intake valves/ports all by itself. With Direct Injection the fuel never sees the intake side of the valves or ports. This is why meth injection is pretty much necessary to limit the HP losses from caking.

[bmylez]

Hmmm...looks pretty much like your 93 oct log, no?

[driver311]

Originally Posted by bmylez Hmmm...looks pretty much like your 93 oct log, no?

With 1 less pount of boost and its still roughly 10gs more across the board. The e85 simply seems to be making more power????

And yes Lenny i finally did lol Just kept spacing my mind.

[rodrigo]

first thing that jumps str8 out at me is that u donated anthony....


i stopped right there.

[bmylez]

Like everyone has been saying, we can speculate as much as we want...gotta get dat thang on a dyno!

Since we're on the topic of donating, there's one thing I noticed....I'm not complaining *at all* or saying it should change, but I was just wondering why the monthly donation limit doesn't change based on the previous month. The goal was $763 for last month but I saw that the site got closer to $1900...the goal for this month is still $763. Looks like the site is making a lot of profit, haha. Just caught my eye, that's all.

[driver311]

I have two more maps to play with after i get the % up. I have a map that peaks at 14 and another that peaks at 15. Right now its only 13 and it feels like plenty. Past that I just dont feel comfortable with stock motor. Based off my logs I feel that the car is making over 380whp as it is. We will see I guess, soon enough.