AFR Spike Question

[joefromkocomo]

Hello all, I'm new here and firstly I just want to say that I did search many different AFR threads to see if I could find the answer, and wasn't able to locate the answer to my specific question. I'm an admitted newb to the tuning thing, so if this is common knowledge I'm sorry. I just recently got an Accessport and have been running either the Stage 1 or Stage 1+ Cobb OTS tune. I have an HPS SRI and Koni Yellows on the car with the intention of doing OCC and RMM in the next month or so and TIP after that.

I've done several datalogs, all using the Stage 1+ OTS Cobb tune, that show the AFR in the 11.6-12.3 range at WOT, which I believe is the correct area I should be in based on the research I've done to this point. At idle, I sit right in the 14.6-14.8 range which my research also tells me is a good spot to be. My question is this:

On the data logs, right after I let off the throttle on a WOT pull I notice there is 1 data point where the AFR spikes into the 9-10 range. Literally only the 1 data point spikes down, and then it stabilizes back to where it should be. Is this just a fraction of a second of lag between the throttle and the HPFP where the engine is still giving more fuel and therefore showing a rich AFR? In my head this explanation seems to make sense, but like I said I'm definitely still learning and want to make sure that this isn't out of the ordinary.

And seriously if this question has already been answered, I'm sorry.

[tegxsi]

You'll often see the AFR dip into the 9s on these cars with aggressive throttle changes like when you stab the throttle. It's very brief and not really a concern. Rich is better than running lean.

[Vansquish]

What he said ^^

However, if you're actually in the ~12.3 range at WOT, that's actually quite lean and potentially quite hazardous for your motor unless you're running race gas, E85, or some mix thereof.

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by Vansquish What he said ^^ However, if you're actually in the ~12.3 range at WOT, that's actually quite lean and potentially quite hazardous for your motor unless you're running race gas, E85, or some mix thereof.

Usually closer to 11.7 at WOT. Would it help if I posted one of the logs? I just want to make sure that I'm not pushing the car on an unsafe mixture. Can post when I get home later.

[Tres3]

Unrelated to your specific question, but are you planning to do HPFP internals and a real tune when you do the tip? Stock HPFP may not keep up and lean is lethal. OTS are probably ok where you are now, but as you add, a custom e-tune will keep it safe and better utilize your mods. Freektune, Nishan, or Purple Drank are all good.

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by Tres3 Unrelated to your specific question, but are you planning to do HPFP internals and a real tune when you do the tip? Stock HPFP may not keep up and lean is lethal. OTS are probably ok where you are now, but as you add, a custom e-tune will keep it safe and better utilize your mods. Freektune, Nishan, or Purple Drank are all good.

Yes, absolutely looking into tuning solutions. E-tune, or I have had 3 locals recommend the same shop to me independently, so I'll give them a look too. I actually reflashed to the Stage 1 OTS Cobb map after writing the OP and reconsidering what my goals are for the car.

Maybe I should've been a little more explicit with my extended plans for the car, but yes HPFP internals are definitely high on the list of things to take care of. I actually had the HPFP(planning to do Corksport unless Autotech is that much better) slated to go in next after the TIP (gonna go with the JBR or CP-E, still undecided). I've found a lot of conflicting information about whether a custom tune and/or HPFP internals are needed to support the TIP, but I guess your point is better to be safe than sorry. If that's the case, I'll happily order the TIP and wait to install until after getting the HPFP internals in. The only reason I felt comfortable doing the TIP first is that the stock HPFP is having no problem whatsoever hitting the 1669 Target at WOT, and holds steady between 1650-1725 at WOT based on the datalogs. Car is an 07' that I purchased 3/24/2018 with 16.8k original miles, clean Carfax just so you have a little more background info. I'll turn 40k when I go to the store after making this post.

For the sake of discussion, COBB claims that their Stage 1+ is for cars with SRI, TIP and either stock exhaust or CBE. As far as I can tell there are about 4 different companies that all make the same TIP, so I felt pretty confident that putting either a COBB/JBR/CP-E/Mishimoto TIP on the car amounts to putting the same part on the car with a different logo on the thing. Again, is this something where you're saying 'in theory' it should be fine, but better to be safe than sorry?

And just for shits and gigs, I'll attach both datalogs I've got in case anyone wants to take a peek.

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by Vansquish What he said ^^ However, if you're actually in the ~12.3 range at WOT, that's actually quite lean and potentially quite hazardous for your motor unless you're running race gas, E85, or some mix thereof.

Do you mind taking a quick look at the datalogs I attached and tell me if I was running too lean on the Stage 1+ map? I was going off of memory when I made my post earlier and I think I may have given you some bad numbers to go off of in my OP.

[Vansquish]

They look OK to me at WOT. I would make sure to log knock retard as well. That's a strong indicator of whether or not your tune is safe for the motor.

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by Vansquish They look OK to me at WOT. I would make sure to log knock retard as well. That's a strong indicator of whether or not your tune is safe for the motor.

It's funny you say that, I just added that last night as I was going through and changing a few settings for gauges and such.

[MSMS3]

FWIW, I’d give upgraded hpfp internals priority #1 . Sustained pump pressure in the 1,700+psi range is critically important once you start raising boost above stock levels.

Also, TIP change is purely cosmetic unless you are changing MAF housing diameter. Despite its odd shape the stock TIP outflows the K04 turbo on pump gas. No provable gains. Better ways to spend hard earned money, IMO.

The engine responds greatly to a better intake system, either SRI or CAI, but the stock TIP, itself, is fine.

[tegxsi]

Logs look fine even though knock wasn't logged.
Under WOT I didn't see any dips in ignition timing. AFR usually dips into the 10s if there is knock. The ECU is hard coded to dump in extra fuel when there are knock events to help cool the combustion chamber.

Definitely upgrade the HPFP. Other mods depends on your goals for the car. I don't know how far you are willing to take it. IMO I'd skip the stockish size TIP.

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 FWIW, I’d give upgraded hpfp internals priority #1 . Sustained pump pressure in the 1,700+psi range is critically important once you start raising boost above stock levels. Also, TIP change is purely cosmetic unless you are changing MAF housing diameter. Despite its odd shape the stock TIP outflows the K04 turbo on pump gas. No provable gains. Better ways to spend hard earned money, IMO. The engine responds greatly to a better intake system, either SRI or CAI, but the stock TIP, itself, is fine.

It's worth something to me, this is exactly why I posted in here hoping to get schooled on all of the shit my internet searches have fallen short on. I guess the main question I have is that a lot of upgrade guides out there have the turbo inlet in their top five things to do. That's a little bit frustrating if it really doesn't do much for you, I understand that a lot of upgrade guides are also paired with online store so it very well could be a ploy to sell more products

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by tegxsi Logs look fine even though knock wasn't logged. Under WOT I didn't see any dips in ignition timing. AFR usually dips into the 10s if there is knock. The ECU is hard coded to dump in extra fuel when there are knock events to help cool the combustion chamber. Definitely upgrade the HPFP. Other mods depends on your goals for the car. I don't know how far you are willing to take it. IMO I'd skip the stockish size TIP.

Plans for now are safely setting myself up to make more power, not a lot for now. My goal is to make somewhere between 300-340whp safely on pump gas. This is currently my dd and will be for the next 2.5ish years until I get it paid off and get an electric vehicle.

At that point it will turn into much more of a play toy and I will probably go with a bigger turbo and possibly different fuel solutions to make 350+, but I don't really ever want this car to go above 400 whp. Just not a fan of trying to put 400+ to the ground with a front wheel drive car. I do love the platform, I think it's a very well balanced car.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by joefromkocomo Plans for now are safely setting myself up to make more power, not a lot for now. My goal is to make somewhere between 300-340whp safely on pump gas. This is currently my dd and will be for the next 2.5ish years until I get it paid off and get an electric vehicle. At that point it will turn into much more of a play toy and I will probably go with a bigger turbo and possibly different fuel solutions to make 350+, but I don't really ever want this car to go above 400 whp. Just not a fan of trying to put 400+ to the ground with a front wheel drive car. I do love the platform, I think it's a very well balanced car.

The K04 on 93 octane pump gas maxes out in the 300-310 whp range. Push it harder and it just makes heat, boost air temps climb through the ceiling. It’s snail is just too small to push more air. You might get to 320-330 with high ethanol blend fuel mixes.

It’s going to take a big turbo conversion and supporting mods to get 350-400 whp.

There are a lot of Cobb OTS stage 2 cars here with catless dp/rp exhausts having trouble hitting a true 300 whp on pump gas. You will need a custom Cobb e-tune or VersaTune because Cobb’s OTS maps suck.

Heck I did better, hitting 300-310 whp with my mods with the simple plug and play Hypertech. The key for K04 power on pump gas is upgraded hpfp internals, a good high flowing CAI or SRI and a big 3” downpipe and racepipe with a tune that optimizes the flow. All else is pretty much irrelevant.

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 The K04 on 93 octane pump gas maxes out in the 300-310 whp range. Push it harder and it just makes heat, boost air temps climb through the ceiling. It’s snail is just too small to push more air. You might get to 320-330 with high ethanol blend fuel mixes. It’s going to take a big turbo conversion and supporting mods to get 350-400 whp. There are a lot of Cobb OTS stage 2 cars here with catless dp/rp exhausts having trouble hitting a true 300 whp on pump gas. You will need a custom Cobb e-tune or VersaTune because Cobb’s OTS maps suck. Heck I did better, hitting 300-310 whp with my mods with the simple plug and play Hypertech. The key for K04 power on pump gas is upgraded hpfp internals, a good high flowing CAI or SRI and a big 3” downpipe and racepipe with a tune that optimizes the flow. All else is pretty much irrelevant.

So the HPS SRI on the car right now has a 2.75" diameter, which is really only about .13-.14 larger than the stock diameter. I run a K&N Filter (oiled), and I have the option to order the extended piping to turn the SRI into a CAI for $80 shipped. Is the diameter of that intake going to be big enough for the power I want to make or should I be looking for a True 3" CAI or SRI instead? And at that point, does that change the answer you gave about the TIP not being worth while? And Dry Flow seems to be a little lower maintenance, should I be considering going dry flow or just run with the Oiled K&N? When I upgrade turbos I definitely won't be going BIG, something similar trim with beefed up internals like a BNR S4 or CST4. That's why I'm looking at the TIPs with a stock sized coupler to the turbo. Or am I just thinking too far ahead at this point?

I'm sure there's a thread already opened about this somewhere, I'm posting this as I'm running out the door at work.

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by joefromkocomo So the HPS SRI on the car right now has a 2.75" diameter, which is really only about .13-.14 larger than the stock diameter. I run a K&N Filter (oiled), and I have the option to order the extended piping to turn the SRI into a CAI for $80 shipped. Is the diameter of that intake going to be big enough for the power I want to make or should I be looking for a True 3" CAI or SRI instead? And at that point, does that change the answer you gave about the TIP not being worth while? And Dry Flow seems to be a little lower maintenance, should I be considering going dry flow or just run with the Oiled K&N? When I upgrade turbos I definitely won't be going BIG, something similar trim with beefed up internals like a BNR S4 or CST4. That's why I'm looking at the TIPs with a stock sized coupler to the turbo. Or am I just thinking too far ahead at this point? I'm sure there's a thread already opened about this somewhere, I'm posting this as I'm running out the door at work.

The BNR S4 is significantly larger than stock and will not spool anything like the stock turbo. The CST4 is a size-class smaller than the BNR S4 and is more comparable to the BNR S3. The S3/CST 4 are good for mid 300whp with appropriate supporting hardware and tune.

The HPS intake internal diameter doesn't matter so much as the internal diameter of the MAF housing does. That said, anything beyond about 15% larger cross-sectional area than the stock MAF housing will require a custom tune as well.

To be clear, the stock MAF housing is 2.65" in diameter. A 2.75" MAF housing with the OEM tune is still OK, because it's only about 7% larger than the OE housing and the ECU can accommodate that increase. Of course, in making accommodations, the ECU is also going to pull power as it learns and adjusts to the increased flow.

The most important items to buy for your car's power numbers are as follows:

1. Upgraded HPFP internals
2. Tuning solution (Cobb Accessport/Versatuner/Hypertech/etc.) and a custom tune.
3. Intake with 3" MAF housing and an aftermarket downpipe (with or without a high flow catalyst) and a customized tune that accounts for the increased flow.

With those items, you will be able to approach 300whp and you should be able to achieve significantly above 300lb-ft at the wheels.

If you use an E85 mixture, you'll get above 300whp fairly easily, but that's an additional tuning and usage burden.

If you switch to a BNR S3, you'll be significantly into the 300whp range with pretty good spool and transient response. The CST4 will provide very similar results. The CST5 and BNR S4 are for aiming closer to 400whp, and can achieve more in some instances.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by joefromkocomo So the HPS SRI on the car right now has a 2.75" diameter, which is really only about .13-.14 larger than the stock diameter. I run a K&N Filter (oiled), and I have the option to order the extended piping to turn the SRI into a CAI for $80 shipped. Is the diameter of that intake going to be big enough for the power I want to make or should I be looking for a True 3" CAI or SRI instead? And at that point, does that change the answer you gave about the TIP not being worth while? And Dry Flow seems to be a little lower maintenance, should I be considering going dry flow or just run with the Oiled K&N? When I upgrade turbos I definitely won't be going BIG, something similar trim with beefed up internals like a BNR S4 or CST4. That's why I'm looking at the TIPs with a stock sized coupler to the turbo. Or am I just thinking too far ahead at this point? I'm sure there's a thread already opened about this somewhere, I'm posting this as I'm running out the door at work.

Vansquish covered it well. Your goals may be a bit optimistic on the stock turbo on pump gas. A slightly larger intake tube means little to nothing unless the maf housing is larger, and that means special tuning. Even then, the K04 will max out at 300-310 whp on pump gas and throwing more mods on can’t improve its flow limitation.

It’s a great, fast spooling, fat torque turbo, well suited for a daily driven MS3. Go bigger and you get more power at the expense of rubber band slingshot like turbo lag and then need to think about how to use more power on a fwd platform.

It’s very easy to overpower the tires at 300 whp, and higher torque down low is not usable and may bend rods. Once you go big turbo and cross 350 whp, you need to be thinking built engine and stronger clutch. Pay to play or break stuff.

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by Vansquish The BNR S4 is significantly larger than stock and will not spool anything like the stock turbo. The CST4 is a size-class smaller than the BNR S4 and is more comparable to the BNR S3. The S3/CST 4 are good for mid 300whp with appropriate supporting hardware and tune. The HPS intake internal diameter doesn't matter so much as the internal diameter of the MAF housing does. That said, anything beyond about 15% larger cross-sectional area than the stock MAF housing will require a custom tune as well. To be clear, the stock MAF housing is 2.65" in diameter. A 2.75" MAF housing with the OEM tune is still OK, because it's only about 7% larger than the OE housing and the ECU can accommodate that increase. Of course, in making accommodations, the ECU is also going to pull power as it learns and adjusts to the increased flow. The most important items to buy for your car's power numbers are as follows: 1. Upgraded HPFP internals 2. Tuning solution (Cobb Accessport/Versatuner/Hypertech/etc.) and a custom tune. 3. Intake with 3" MAF housing and an aftermarket downpipe (with or without a high flow catalyst) and a customized tune that accounts for the increased flow. With those items, you will be able to approach 300whp and you should be able to achieve significantly above 300lb-ft at the wheels. If you use an E85 mixture, you'll get above 300whp fairly easily, but that's an additional tuning and usage burden. If you switch to a BNR S3, you'll be significantly into the 300whp range with pretty good spool and transient response. The CST4 will provide very similar results. The CST5 and BNR S4 are for aiming closer to 400whp, and can achieve more in some instances.

Ok, fair enough. You actually eased my mind quite a bit just now. The more I'd been looking into upgrading the car further the more I was worried that I'd possibly done some damage by running the intake without a custom tune. I think for some reason I had it in my head that the numbers between CS and BNR turbos were comparable in size. I'm not in the business of abusing the car, so yes for my personal goals I think the BNR S3 and CST4 or something comparable in size are the biggest turbos I would consider putting on the car. I consider anything close to 350whp on this platform plenty fun.

Originally Posted by MSMS3 Vansquish covered it well. Your goals may be a bit optimistic on the stock turbo on pump gas. A slightly larger intake tube means little to nothing unless the maf housing is larger, and that means special tuning. Even then, the K04 will max out at 300-310 whp on pump gas and throwing more mods on can’t improve its flow limitation. It’s a great, fast spooling, fat torque turbo, well suited for a daily driven MS3. Go bigger and you get more power at the expense of rubber band slingshot like turbo lag and then need to think about how to use more power on a fwd platform. It’s very easy to overpower the tires at 300 whp, and higher torque down low is not usable and may bend rods. Once you go big turbo and cross 350 whp, you need to be thinking built engine and stronger clutch. Pay to play or break stuff.

Yeah, everyone on the internet loves to boast about how much power they're putting down on a stock block on xx lbs of boost, blah blah blah... I think that's why I'm so interested in making sure I take the power gains where I can get them and just being patient with it. Many thanks to you both for setting me straight.

[joefromkocomo]

I was flipping through the DP/TP stickied thread to look for the answer, can't seem to find it. Is there a significant difference between a divorced DP like the Corksport and a bellmouth DP in terms of performance? The reading I've done pretty much tells me there's a decrease in turbulence when using a divorced pipe, but I'm not clear on the performance benefit, if any, between the two types. I've pretty much gotten it narrowed down to the ATP, Ultimate Racing, and the Corksport for the DP. I know I like the sound of the HKS CBE, so that's already decided.

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by joefromkocomo I was flipping through the DP/TP stickied thread to look for the answer, can't seem to find it. Is there a significant difference between a divorced DP like the Corksport and a bellmouth DP in terms of performance? The reading I've done pretty much tells me there's a decrease in turbulence when using a divorced pipe, but I'm not clear on the performance benefit, if any, between the two types. I've pretty much gotten it narrowed down to the ATP, Ultimate Racing, and the Corksport for the DP. I know I like the sound of the HKS CBE, so that's already decided.

I would stay away from the divorced downpipes if you're planning on running an internally-wastegated aftermarket turbo at some point. The CS divorced bellmouth interferes with the wastegate flapper on some turbos and can prevent the wastegate from functioning properly.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by joefromkocomo I was flipping through the DP/TP stickied thread to look for the answer, can't seem to find it. Is there a significant difference between a divorced DP like the Corksport and a bellmouth DP in terms of performance? The reading I've done pretty much tells me there's a decrease in turbulence when using a divorced pipe, but I'm not clear on the performance benefit, if any, between the two types. I've pretty much gotten it narrowed down to the ATP, Ultimate Racing, and the Corksport for the DP. I know I like the sound of the HKS CBE, so that's already decided.

That CBE (or any other) will not make more power for you on the stock turbo. Just know that.

Divorced dp is not likely to make any difference, either, except on a built engine with big turbo, custom tune and supporting mods. If you truly plan to ditch the K04 in favor of a big turbo, what follows in this post may not matter. But if you plan to run the K04 now, or for a while:

Like I said earlier, the limiting factor is the flow of the stock K04. Once you hit that wall at 300-310 whp on pump gas with upgraded hpfp internals, good intake flow and a good 3” downpipe, throwing other or different power mods will not change that.

Also know that the stock CBE is well-matched to the turbo. The exhaust side restrictions are upstream of the CBE, in the stock catted downpipe and catted midpipe. Once you have a good 3” dp/rp you’ve solved exhaust side flow for maxing out the K04 on pump gas. Changing the CBE only changes sound unless you also install a larger turbo and tune for it.

Look at my mods. Stock CBE downstream from the catless 3” dp/rp. 300-310 whp. There is very little, if anything, left on the table. Maybe another 5 whp with a very good tweaked custom tune. The K04 (now equivalent flow BNR 1), is maxed out. You can make more torque down low (350 ft.lbs.) but you just bend connecting rods and shred tires (fwd). A MS6 with AWD might benefit from higher low ind torque, but at the risk of bent rods. It’s not usable on the MS3 in the real world. Better tunes for the MS3 soften torque down low and bring it on strong after 3,500-4,000 rpm to redline.

We’ve traveled this road for years. There is no magic to make a K04 make more power than what it’s efficiency map will allow. I’ve always been happy at the level where it is maxed out on a safe tune.

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by Vansquish I would stay away from the divorced downpipes if you're planning on running an internally-wastegated aftermarket turbo at some point. The CS divorced bellmouth interferes with the wastegate flapper on some turbos and can prevent the wastegate from functioning properly.

Ok, so if I end up getting froggy and deciding I do want to go BT down the road that answer could change depending on the wastegate setup.

Do you recommend getting the extra O2 bung? I live in SC, so it's not a requirement for me to be Catted, but I'm still undecided on whether I'm going catted or catless. My wife's a big Eco head and I try to be conscious too, so I'm leaning toward going catted unless there's a significant difference. It seems like there's really only ~5hp to gain from going catless. If that's the case, I think catted will be the way to go so I can tell her in confidence I'm being environmentally conscious. #marriedlife

Originally Posted by MSMS3 That CBE (or any other) will not make more power for you on the stock turbo. Just know that. Divorced dp is not likely to make any difference, either, except on a built engine with big turbo, custom tune and supporting mods. If you truly plan to ditch the K04 in favor of a big turbo, what follows in this post may not matter. But if you plan to run the K04 now, or for a while: Like I said earlier, the limiting factor is the flow of the stock K04. Once you hit that wall at 300-310 whp on pump gas with upgraded hpfp internals, good intake flow and a good 3” downpipe, throwing other or different power mods will not change that. Also know that the stock CBE is well-matched to the turbo. The exhaust side restrictions are upstream of the CBE, in the stock catted downpipe and catted midpipe. Once you have a good 3” dp/rp you’ve solved exhaust side flow for maxing out the K04 on pump gas. Changing the CBE only changes sound unless you also install a larger turbo and tune for it. Look at my mods. Stock CBE downstream from the catless 3” dp/rp. 300-310 whp. There is very little, if anything, left on the table. Maybe another 5 whp with a very good tweaked custom tune. The K04 (now equivalent flow BNR 1), is maxed out. You can make more torque down low (350 ft.lbs.) but you just bend connecting rods and shred tires (fwd). A MS6 with AWD might benefit from higher low ind torque, but at the risk of bent rods. It’s not usable on the MS3 in the real world. Better tunes for the MS3 soften torque down low and bring it on strong after 3,500-4,000 rpm to redline. We’ve traveled this road for years. There is no magic to make a K04 make more power than what it’s efficiency map will allow. I’ve always been happy at the level where it is maxed out on a safe tune.

Oh, most definitely feel you my man. I have no expectation whatsoever that the HKS CBE will get me any power gain whatsoever. Putting that thing on the car is a personal preference, smiles per gallon move on my part. Maybe I didn't make that clear.

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by joefromkocomo Ok, so if I end up getting froggy and deciding I do want to go BT down the road that answer could change depending on the wastegate setup. Do you recommend getting the extra O2 bung? I live in SC, so it's not a requirement for me to be Catted, but I'm still undecided on whether I'm going catted or catless. My wife's a big Eco head and I try to be conscious too, so I'm leaning toward going catted unless there's a significant difference. It seems like there's really only ~5hp to gain from going catless. If that's the case, I think catted will be the way to go so I can tell her in confidence I'm being environmentally conscious. #marriedlife

I would make sure to get a downpipe that has bungs for both of the OEM O2 sensors. Beyond that, it's up to you. Also, it's basically just a pipe that nobody is ever going to look at. Why not get a used one or an Ebay el-cheapo one?

[Jeff23spl]

catless also came with more fuel smell so it would be hard to convince her that you are eco friendly with it... but just ask here to take a step backward and look at everything overall to weight the impact of your small hatch over the world and it won't make any difference....Most of the bike allowed to use reserved lane among the electric cars don't have any cat installed either...

the difference won't be much important in hp but in spool and torque response.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by Vansquish I would make sure to get a downpipe that has bungs for both of the OEM O2 sensors. Beyond that, it's up to you. Also, it's basically just a pipe that nobody is ever going to look at. Why not get a used one or an Ebay el-cheapo one?

Exactly. And, if the bungs are properly designed and located, you can run catless with no check engine light. Not suggesting you spend the extra on something like my TurboXS, but they really engineered the rear bung location and height so that I almost never had a check engine light, maybe only once or twice a year, usually after some really abrupt change in weather and ambient temperature.

Maybe the cheap e-Bay copies have the same raised secondary 02 bung now.

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by Vansquish I would make sure to get a downpipe that has bungs for both of the OEM O2 sensors. Beyond that, it's up to you. Also, it's basically just a pipe that nobody is ever going to look at. Why not get a used one or an Ebay el-cheapo one?

I dunno, I guess naively I was thinking that if this is the part that's going to net me the most power I should be making sure it's a quality piece of equipment. But you do make a valid point, how much can there be to a piece of piping with a bend in it, a flange, and a couple holes for O2 sensors? I'll definitely take that to the bank.

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl catless also came with more fuel smell so it would be hard to convince her that you are eco friendly with it... but just ask here to take a step backward and look at everything overall to weight the impact of your small hatch over the world and it won't make any difference....Most of the bike allowed to use reserved lane among the electric cars don't have any cat installed either... the difference won't be much important in hp but in spool and torque response.

I'm not really all that worried about her calling me out on on it, she doesn't drive the car all that much. There is a very small chance I'd be moving to NC in the next 3-5 years. Based on what Vansquish said above you, saving some coin and going for a catless ebay cheapo now would make changing out for a catted later less of a sting if that does have to happen. I just notice that most of what you find on ebay is catless.

Sidenote after I saw the bit about you being French Canadian in your sig, my wife's a French immigrant.

Originally Posted by MSMS3 Exactly. And, if the bungs are properly designed and located, you can run catless with no check engine light. Not suggesting you spend the extra on something like my TurboXS, but they really engineered the rear bung location and height so that I almost never had a check engine light, maybe only once or twice a year, usually after some really abrupt change in weather and ambient temperature. Maybe the cheap e-Bay copies have the same raised secondary 02 bung now.

I actually ran over to a shop I'm considering getting it tuned at today and talked to them about a few things and they basically said the same exact thing about the O2 bungs. I'm definitely going to get a pro tune for it, regardless of whether I go to that place or not. The only thing I wasn't crazy about was that I was hoping to get a detune map as well to run on my daily commute to save a little bit of gas, and the place I checked out today has a flat fee of $550/map. So at that point, the money I'd save on gas from getting the detune wouldn't really balance out for a looooong time. I've also made the realization that for the power-adders I'm basically going to have to buy all the parts and pile them up, get them all installed at once and then go get it tuned. My newb ass thought I might be able to upgrade as I go without a tune and it's clear to me that's a great way to experience ZZB.

I'm gonna go check out some of the tuning threads for some more guidance on this, but does anyone have any experience with tuners in the upstate SC area that they can recommend?

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by joefromkocomo I actually ran over to a shop I'm considering getting it tuned at today and talked to them about a few things and they basically said the same exact thing about the O2 bungs. I'm definitely going to get a pro tune for it, regardless of whether I go to that place or not. The only thing I wasn't crazy about was that I was hoping to get a detune map as well to run on my daily commute to save a little bit of gas, and the place I checked out today has a flat fee of $550/map. So at that point, the money I'd save on gas from getting the detune wouldn't really balance out for a looooong time. I've also made the realization that for the power-adders I'm basically going to have to buy all the parts and pile them up, get them all installed at once and then go get it tuned. My newb ass thought I might be able to upgrade as I go without a tune and it's clear to me that's a great way to experience ZZB. I'm gonna go check out some of the tuning threads for some more guidance on this, but does anyone have any experience with tuners in the upstate SC area that they can recommend?

NO!!!!

Do not try and get this car tuned at a shop that doesn't specialize in this platform. This platform is finicky and it really does pay to have someone tune the car who is very familiar with the nuances of this motor. Frankly, there's no need to go to a physical shop to tune the car.

I would strongly recommend contacting one or more of the excellent e-tuners for this platform and working on a custom tune that way. It'll also be significantly less expensive to go the E-tune route than going to a physical shop, probably on the order of about 1/2 to 2/3 the price. For example any of the following tuners are excellent and highly respected.

Stratified Auto
FreekTune
TunedbyNishan
Purple Drank Tuning
Hypnotic Tuning

There is also no need to do an "economy" map. With a properly designed tune, you can achieve significant fuel economy gains while also having maximum power gains. The reason for this is that the ECU can achieve very different running characteristics for low load/low rev conditions while also providing extreme performance once you're meaningfully into the power band. Any good tuner for this platform can do this for you.

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by Vansquish NO!!!! Do not try and get this car tuned at a shop that doesn't specialize in this platform. This platform is finicky and it really does pay to have someone tune the car who is very familiar with the nuances of this motor. Frankly, there's no need to go to a physical shop to tune the car. I would strongly recommend contacting one or more of the excellent e-tuners for this platform and working on a custom tune that way. It'll also be significantly less expensive to go the E-tune route than going to a physical shop, probably on the order of about 1/2 to 2/3 the price. For example any of the following tuners are excellent and highly respected. Stratified Auto FreekTune TunedbyNishan Purple Drank Tuning Hypnotic Tuning There is also no need to do an "economy" map. With a properly designed tune, you can achieve significant fuel economy gains while also having maximum power gains. The reason for this is that the ECU can achieve very different running characteristics for low load/low rev conditions while also providing extreme performance once you're meaningfully into the power band. Any good tuner for this platform can do this for you.

If I could thank you multiple times for this single post, I would. I mentioned E-Tuning to the guy at that shop and honestly, you'd have thought I told him he had cancer. I do get that this is their livelihood and there's a certain level of marketing associated with doing business, but was a little off-put by his attitude. It got better the more I talked to him and explained that I wasn't expecting them to turn it into a 787B... I'm sure they have people coming in expecting ridiculous numbers all the time though.

[Jeff23spl]

dyno numbers are 1 thing but more powerband is what will let you win a race. And dyno numbers are scaled differently from place to place so if you have the place to test run and log, a proper etune is similar or sometimes better than a dyno tune because you run in real conditions...
Ps i mention French Canadian in my sign just in case someone would think i'm retarded or never went to school because of my grammar... but if you compare our French or behaviors, it would be similar to comparing Texan English to British...Btw if one would like to learn some or our expressions, he could search for french and piper blush on youtube...

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl dyno numbers are 1 thing but more powerband is what will let you win a race. And dyno numbers are scaled differently from place to place so if you have the place to test run and log, a proper etune is similar or sometimes better than a dyno tune because you run in real conditions... Ps i mention French Canadian in my sign just in case someone would think i'm retarded or never went to school because of my grammar... but if you compare our French or behaviors, it would be similar to comparing Texan English to British...Btw if one would like to learn some or our expressions, he could search for french and piper blush on youtube...

Makes sense, I'm trying to learn French this year. Do you speak fluently?

[MSMS3]

Our cars and engine are relatively rare. The experienced e-Tuners mentioned above have vast experience accumulated over many years tuning this engine safely and powerfully for each of the many different combinations of turbos, intakes, exhausts, intercoolers and other mods.

The chances of a local hometown tuner having tuned even one MS3 or MS6 is very low, and involving the same turbo/intake/exhaust combination or doing 3 port EBCS tuning will be just about zero.

One mistake on one false tuning assumption will blow this engine in a heartbeat. This is not a one size fits all tuning solution when going big turbo.

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 Our cars and engine are relatively rare. The experienced e-Tuners mentioned above have vast experience accumulated over many years tuning this engine safely and powerfully for each of the many different combinations of turbos, intakes, exhausts, intercoolers and other mods. The chances of a local hometown tuner having tuned even one MS3 or MS6 is very low, and involving the same turbo/intake/exhaust combination or doing 3 port EBCS tuning will be just about zero. One mistake on one false tuning assumption will blow this engine in a heartbeat. This is not a one size fits all tuning solution when going big turbo.

Yeah, I'm picking up what you and Vansquish putting down, it makes sense. I was really weirded out when the guy at the local place recommended I just get a Cobb Stage package. Still a few months out from having all the parts needed anyway. And Nishan's youtube channel has been very helpful in learning a little more about this platform and what it needs. "Big" Turbo is still 2+ years in the future for me and still really only interested in something BNR S3/CST4 sized.

I do have a specific question about tuning with exhaust though. Say I install and aftermarket downpipe and keep the stock CBE on it and get it tuned. If I change over to the HKS catback will I need to retune? My research is telling me that the CBE has very little to do with power gain, and more to do with sound production. Or am I mistaken and will this change the back pressure of the exhaust system such that I will need to have it retuned? I'm leaning towards just waiting until I have the full exhaust system that I want to put on it to install it anyway, but if the answer is that changing the CBE has no effect whatsoever... I might change the order of how I do it.

[tegxsi]

Originally Posted by joefromkocomo I do have a specific question about tuning with exhaust though. Say I install and aftermarket downpipe and keep the stock CBE on it and get it tuned. If I change over to the HKS catback will I need to retune? My research is telling me that the CBE has very little to do with power gain, and more to do with sound production. Or am I mistaken and will this change the back pressure of the exhaust system such that I will need to have it retuned? I'm leaning towards just waiting until I have the full exhaust system that I want to put on it to install it anyway, but if the answer is that changing the CBE has no effect whatsoever... I might change the order of how I do it.

It's best to datalog and review if the tune needs to be touched up. IMO with the stock K04 you're probably fine leaving the tune as is.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by tegxsi It's best to datalog and review if the tune needs to be touched up. IMO with the stock K04 you're probably fine leaving the tune as is.

I agree with this. In theory, if you’ve addressed the serious upstream exhaust restrictions (dp and midpipe low flow cats), both exhausts will then be outflowing the turbo. You probably would not need to retune. But, only by data logging would you know. If you change exhaust flow you want to watch AFR under load to make sure you stay safely on the rich side, look to see that you are not pulling timing and that you do not start seeing any boost creep. I don’t think you will on a good tune, but log with any change.

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by tegxsi It's best to datalog and review if the tune needs to be touched up. IMO with the stock K04 you're probably fine leaving the tune as is.

Originally Posted by MSMS3 I agree with this. In theory, if you’ve addressed the serious upstream exhaust restrictions (dp and midpipe low flow cats), both exhausts will then be outflowing the turbo. You probably would not need to retune. But, only by data logging would you know. If you change exhaust flow you want to watch AFR under load to make sure you stay safely on the rich side, look to see that you are not pulling timing and that you do not start seeing any boost creep. I don’t think you will on a good tune, but log with any change.

This is what I was thinking. I'm just not sure after I put the DP on it I'll still feel strongly about changing the CBE over to the HKS... I suppose this is also a question I could bring up in the tuning consultation to see what their experience tells them in situations like this.

[Jeff23spl]

Originally Posted by joefromkocomo Makes sense, I'm trying to learn French this year. Do you speak fluently?

Yes Canadian French is our native language on the east side of Canada but for English it is a different story, i can follow job or car talks but i will miss some jokes meaning or double definition sentences etc...

back to cars, i would agree our specialized tuners know pretty well the k04 and probably have tune ready for each intake and exaust setup but because our engine get old, worn and could have been repaired, it may not react exactly like another one with the same setup...(valves lash, shifted crank sensor, loose timing chain vs tight one, clogged valves vs clean ones etc etc...) You would better get the full etune process from them with dataloging and finetune for your specific install for the best results...

[joefromkocomo]

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl Yes Canadian French is our native language on the east side of Canada but for English it is a different story, i can follow job or car talks but i will miss some jokes meaning or double definition sentences etc... back to cars, i would agree our specialized tuners know pretty well the k04 and probably have tune ready for each intake and exaust setup but because our engine get old, worn and could have been repaired, it may not react exactly like another one with the same setup...(valves lash, shifted crank sensor, loose timing chain vs tight one, clogged valves vs clean ones etc etc...) You would better get the full etune process from them with dataloging and finetune for your specific install for the best results...

Already planning on it. I've done enough datalogs on the Cobb OTS maps and seen numbers I didn't like that OTS doesn't seem very cost efficient. Save a few dollars on the tune and then have to rebuild the motor prematurely? Yeah... no thanks. After all the discussion in this thread, I've backed everything down on the tuning, just running the Cobb Stage 0 map and taking it easy until I can get a custom tune for my specific vehicle. Not worth it for the next few months to make an insignificant amount more power when I have much safer and larger power gains getting ever closer. The pile of parts is growing, just snagged an OCC off Facebook that showed up today that I'll put on this weekend. Bonus comes through next month and I'll be able to knock out a few more items and then whatever the bonus doesn't cover the tax return will. I really appreciate all the answers I've gotten in this thread, I estimate it's saved me $1500-2000. Maybe more, hard to put an exact number on it since my list of parts and prices has changed so drastically since I started the thread and I don't have the original version saved.

[joefromkocomo]

Jesus. So last night I was driving and giving it a little gas from 3k in 3rd gear, still on the Cobb Stage 0 which is allegedly a simulated stock map. I look down at my AP after a quick pull from 30-60 and see that the upper bound of my boost number was ~17.6 lbs. I know for damn sure a stock map should be tuned with a boost target of 15.5-15.6 lbs. I started logging so I could take a look at home to see what was going on, and sure enough I had one cell of boost spike. Shifting from 3rd to 4th, as soon as the turbo spooled in 4th it spiked to 17.68 lbs. I know the K04 is capable of 18-19 lbs safely, but if I'm 2 lbs over target that doesn't seem too great. No KR reading at all. I'm really just thinking of uninstalling the AP until it's time for tuning at this point. Am I thinking correctly, or am I just paranoid? Datalog attached.

[tegxsi]

Originally Posted by joefromkocomo Jesus. So last night I was driving and giving it a little gas from 3k in 3rd gear, still on the Cobb Stage 0 which is allegedly a simulated stock map. I look down at my AP after a quick pull from 30-60 and see that the upper bound of my boost number was ~17.6 lbs. I know for damn sure a stock map should be tuned with a boost target of 15.5-15.6 lbs. I started logging so I could take a look at home to see what was going on, and sure enough I had one cell of boost spike. Shifting from 3rd to 4th, as soon as the turbo spooled in 4th it spiked to 17.68 lbs. I know the K04 is capable of 18-19 lbs safely, but if I'm 2 lbs over target that doesn't seem too great. No KR reading at all. I'm really just thinking of uninstalling the AP until it's time for tuning at this point. Am I thinking correctly, or am I just paranoid? Datalog attached.

Log looks ok. Looks very lean for stage 0. Was the pedal to the floor at WOT? I don't see the pedal and throttle% in the log.
Stock/Stage 0 tune is actually a load targeting map so the amount of boost you see can vary based on intake temperatures. You will see a bit of overshoot on this map since the wastegate tables are aggressive.

[Jeff23spl]

don't worry much if it happen just for 1 cell, everything electronically controlled remain mechanic with some kind of latency on the response. Especially in third gear and winter time, it is where your turbo spool the quickest...