THE OFFICIAL INTAKE THREAD!!

[jm211]

Originally Posted by spdandpwr has anyone compared IATs between the intake options? Sure, most of these are SRIs, so they'll all heatsoak the same. But a 5-ply material (like used in the JBR) will resist heat better than an aluminum intake. I'm more concerned to see if I should stick with getting the JBR stage 2 or if getting the Cobb intake with the box and tip makes more sense.

You can box and cold air all you want, the iats will all be about the same once boosted. Saved the money on the box, get a jbr intake and use the money for a better intercooler (fm or tm).

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by jm211 You can box and cold air all you want, the iats will all be about the same once boosted. Saved the money on the box, get a jbr intake and use the money for a better intercooler (fm or tm).

Please explain and cite the factual basis for this claim. IAT and BAT's are directly related. If you raise IAT 1 degree, BAT's will rise by 1 degree, regardless of whether you have an intercooler or not or how efficient the IC is. Intercoolers will reduce BAT's, and the more efficient they are, the more they bring it down. But, even the most efficient intercooler will still be subject to the laws of physics. Raise IAT's and BAT's will rise by the same amount.

Now, I have done some research of the effect of IAT under the hood (SRI) compared to IAT at the left front wheelwell position (CAI) on our cars. When you are moving, there will be no difference. But, if you are in a lot of stop and go traffic, it makes a huge difference. Only as little as 3 minutes of standing still will significantly raise IATs (as much as 30 degrees), and if you are caught up in commute traffic, IATs can rise 50 degrees or more. BAT's will follow.

And the ability of the air flow once underway to bring the underhood IAT's or the post intercooler BATs down takes time. On the order of 15-30 seconds.

So, if you're stuck in traffic for slow, no air flow conditions for 3-5 minutes, and then you get a clear lane and go to pass someone, cooler IAT's make a huge difference.

If highway driving is mostly what you do and you have plenty of time to get underhood temps down, it will not matter. But if the car is your daily driver and you are in commuter type traffic or city traffic with a lot of redlights, then you will soon find out that it really matters.

[jm211]

I believe @dale_gribble tested this. Sorry if im mistaken dale.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by jm211 I believe @dale_gribble tested this. Sorry if im mistaken dale.

So did I. I have photos showing 32 degree differential between under the hood and left front wheel well air intake at the 5 minute mark from a cold engine start, if you are interested, using remote sensor temp gauges taken simultaneously.

Here: http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...hp?albumid=217


What do you say about BATs not following IAT's degree for degree?

[dale_gribble]

@jm211 Indeed I did, and there is a pretty substantial difference in IATs between SRI and CAI per @MSMS3's work.

CAIs bring IATs within 5-10F of ambient for the most part due to the colder air. SRIs thermally stabilize with the ambient temperature of the engine compartment, which is usually much higher; from what I remember in the low hundreds (110-120F). Having said that, I think the translation to performance is somewhat in the noise though, i.e. it doesn't make a really notable difference. I did SRI vs. CAI comparisons, but the results were pretty much dead on.

I'll frame it another way. If one had a clear cut advantage over the other on the dyno/real world, it would have been exploited and the CAI v. SRI debate would be over. The debate lives on because both offer similar performance.

[jm211]

Thanks both.
And to my original point, in real world performance the performance edge is, as dale puts it, noise.

In other words, cs does make lightweight lugs, but at the expense of losing wheels mid race for a tid bit of less rotational mass. Same with a cai, tad more performance at a higher risk of sucking water.

I think if your going for cooler performance, a larger core or meth would make more sense.

Thats really all my original point was. Why spend $100 on a box when u could use that to really make an impact.

-Joe

[MSMS3]

I must respectfully agree and disagree. The data is the data. In my real world there is a lot of stop and go driving and being dead stopped through several traffic lights in a row. That is combined sometimes way more than 5 minutes with engine heat soaring. I've seen close to 160 degrees IAT with 85 degrees ambient. That is 75 degrees difference.

The established math is that for every 10 degrees of increase in IAT you lose 1% of your wheel horsepower. A 75 degree rise stuck in traffic is 7.5%

Not much you say? 7.5% of 300 whp (for example) is 25 horsepower. Now, if YOU don't recognize and miss that loss when you pull out to pass, I sure do. That's my real world.

And sometimes datalog to see how long it takes for fresh ambient air from the grill to bring your BATs down. I'll bet you find that it will take at least 15 seconds to as much as 30, AFTER you get up to speed to get the air flowing well.

When you need it, that is an eternity.

Now, in your world, if you do not encounter those conditions maybe it doesn't matter.

Here is some data to ponder:
http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/C...AirWARNING.pdf

[blue speed]

I think what people are talking about here is how hot a turbo charger gets which is also much hotter than a supercharger due to exhaust temps and boost pressure. The amount of heat that is transfered from the exhuast side of the turbo charger to the intake side is much greater than temps on a supercharger. By the time you calculate the 35 degree differance with the temps on the turbo charger and increase of the higher boost temps the number or affect should be very small. I use to be into Miatas (i still have one) and many people installed Jackson Racing superchargers on them and the intake that came with the Jackson unit was a short ram. I will add a couple of links to sites. http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...Tech%20101.pdf . Turbocharger Compressor Calculations .

[MSMS3]

@blue speed; Perhaps I'm not understanding. Data is data regardless of the source of the heat. If anything, underhood temps are going to be even higher for turbo engines than superchargers due to an exhaust manifold that is running close to 1500 degrees F, before exiting below the firewall and the loss of power correspondingly greater than that experienced by the Kenne Bell people in their study. I think you help prove my point. To me this reality would reinforce the need to have the coldest air possible entering the system. The rise of BAT's in relationship to IAT's in 1:1. Basic physics does not change.

This is not my first rodeo with modified turbos. In fact it is fourth following several decades of running turbo Saabs, some highly modified with big T4 Garretts that came on like a light switch, with so much lag that they had no power below 4,000-4,500 rpm and then balls to the wall to redline. My first Saab 900 turbo I had from back in the early '80's (I'm 63 years old) did not even come with a factory intercooler. Talk about heat soak and soaring BATs. Later ones, 9000 and 9-5 series, had nice sized FMIC's that were easily upgraded, but at the expense of further lag. I think I might know a few things about the effect of underhood temps on real world turbocharger performance. Certainly not an expert, but not without some experience. All four cars combined, I would say that I've put at least 500,000 - 600,000 miles on modified turbos over the years and do virtually all of the modding and maintenance myself.

But if I, and all of us, don't learn something new every day, we fall behind. I'm trying to keep up.

[trdaltezza]

This sure helpppeeeeeddd!!!!!!!

[Waterbug17]

When I purchased my car, I received a SURE sidewinder intake included and I'm just wondering if there's any risk in installing it before winter. Was planning on waiting until spring but I'm pretty impatient and would love to install it ASAP.

[Agent_Orange]

Originally Posted by Waterbug17 When I purchased my car, I received a SURE sidewinder intake included and I'm just wondering if there's any risk in installing it before winter. Was planning on waiting until spring but I'm pretty impatient and would love to install it ASAP.

Do you have an AP or other way to monitor?

[Waterbug17]

No ap. I have an OBD with the torque app but that's about it.

[Agent_Orange]

Originally Posted by Waterbug17 No ap. I have an OBD with the torque app but that's about it.

You should get the AP, because without a way to tune, power mods are pretty pointless. The torque app should serve well for monitoring though. I don't see any problem installing the intake and keeping an eye on your fuel trims and AFR to make sure the lack of a MAF cal isn't causing any seriously lean conditions. Monitoring your fuel pressure is a good idea also.

[Waterbug17]

Still learning about the car, so I'll have to read into it a little but Deffinately appreiciate the help man. Not quite sure how to monitor everything yet.

[Agent_Orange]

Originally Posted by Waterbug17 Still learning about the car, so I'll have to read into it a little but Deffinately appreiciate the help man. Not quite sure how to monitor everything yet.

Your welcome.

Just start reading:
MazdaSpeed 3/6 - ECU Computer Tuning - Mazdaspeed Forums

The stickies there should get you started.

[_MS3orDIE]

just installed a CS SRI stage 2. No AP just yet. apparently not hittin full boost is a common problem? im gonna check all my connections tomorrow? has anyone else had this problem? what was your solution?

[Printman]

The best way to unlock the full potential of your car is to buy an AP first that will yield the most gains even with a stock motor and the OTS tunes available. Once content with that then start getting other power mods then an e-tune if you don't feel comfortable self tuning and you will be smiling every time you hit the go pedal

[MSMS3]

This thread is about intakes, not tuning options. The widely used intakes are safe on stock tune. If the intake is supposed to have a air straightener, be sure to use one or there may be a MAF calc. issue. If the intake uses a stock MAF housing diameter, then there is not likely to be a MAF calc mismatch of any significance. The issue on Gen 2 cars may be more a need to upgrade the fuel pump internals rather than an aftermarket tune.

You do not need AP to have a good MAF calc and run safely. Our cars respond well to more free flowing intakes, because the stock air box is soooooo restrictive. Most intake manufactuers do a good job of designing their products so that stock MAF calc is not altered.

If you do want to optimize the intake improvement there are several good tuning options. AP is excellent. It's best use, however, if when you do not have any other way to monitor and you are planning to run a different turbo than the stock K04 or planning to run E85 or other exotic fuel blends.

On the stock K04 turbo and pump premium grade fuel, do not sell Hypertech "plug and play" programmer short. It has very good MAF correction for just about all of the major intakes and will produce 95+% of the power of a custom AP tune and do it with safety. I'm not criticizing AP. I'm just saying that for many of us, even when pretty much fully bolted (including my catless dp/rp), Hypertech performs so well, that I have not seen the need to move to AP.

[blue speed]

Originally Posted by _MS3orDIE just installed a CS SRI stage 2. No AP just yet. apparently not hittin full boost is a common problem? im gonna check all my connections tomorrow? has anyone else had this problem? what was your solution?

You might have a leak. Not only check the new intake connections but also the OEM TIP they have been know to be loose. When I installed my Cobb TIP the OEM one came off by hand without loosening the clamps.

Originally Posted by MSMS3 This thread is about intakes, not tuning options. The widely used intakes are safe on stock tune. If the intake is supposed to have a air straightener, be sure to use one or there may be a MAF calc. issue. If the intake uses a stock MAF housing diameter, then there is not likely to be a MAF calc mismatch of any significance. The issue on Gen 2 cars may be more a need to upgrade the fuel pump internals rather than an aftermarket tune. You do not need AP to have a good MAF calc and run safely. Our cars respond well to more free flowing intakes, because the stock air box is soooooo restrictive. Most intake manufactuers do a good job of designing their products so that stock MAF calc is not altered. If you do want to optimize the intake improvement there are several good tuning options. AP is excellent. It's best use, however, if when you do not have any other way to monitor and you are planning to run a different turbo than the stock K04 or planning to run E85 or other exotic fuel blends. On the stock K04 turbo and pump premium grade fuel, do not sell Hypertech "plug and play" programmer short. It has very good MAF correction for just about all of the major intakes and will produce 95+% of the power of a custom AP tune and do it with safety. I'm not criticizing AP. I'm just saying that for many of us, even when pretty much fully bolted (including my catless dp/rp), Hypertech performs so well, that I have not seen the need to move to AP.

+1 on the Hypertech.

[_MS3orDIE]

Originally Posted by blue speed You might have a leak. Not only check the new intake connections but also the OEM TIP they have been know to be loose. When I installed my Cobb TIP the OEM one came off by hand without loosening the clamps. +1 on the Hypertech.

Yea i noticed my tip was off this morning. I got full boost in higher gears like 5th and sixth. I'll redo everything later today and see what happens appreciate the info

[MSMS3]

^ Be sure to check all clamps, hoses and connections from the turbo to the intercooler and from it the throttle body and your bypass valve. That is the boosted side. The TIP cannot leak boost, because it is before the turbo compressor. It operates in an unboosted condition. A leak there is bad because it pulls unmetered air into the system, bypassing your MAF sensor, and that air is unfiltered, which can damage your engine.

[_MS3orDIE]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 This thread is about intakes, not tuning options. The widely used intakes are safe on stock tune. If the intake is supposed to have a air straightener, be sure to use one or there may be a MAF calc. issue. If the intake uses a stock MAF housing diameter, then there is not likely to be a MAF calc mismatch of any significance. The issue on Gen 2 cars may be more a need to upgrade the fuel pump internals rather than an aftermarket tune. You do not need AP to have a good MAF calc and run safely. Our cars respond well to more free flowing intakes, because the stock air box is soooooo restrictive. Most intake manufactuers do a good job of designing their products so that stock MAF calc is not altered. If you do want to optimize the intake improvement there are several good tuning options. AP is excellent. It's best use, however, if when you do not have any other way to monitor and you are planning to run a different turbo than the stock K04 or planning to run E85 or other exotic fuel blends. On the stock K04 turbo and pump premium grade fuel, do not sell Hypertech "plug and play" programmer short. It has very good MAF correction for just about all of the major intakes and will produce 95+% of the power of a custom AP tune and do it with safety. I'm not criticizing AP. I'm just saying that for many of us, even when pretty much fully bolted (including my catless dp/rp), Hypertech performs so well, that I have not seen the need to move to AP.

Originally Posted by blue speed You might have a leak. Not only check the new intake connections but also the OEM TIP they have been know to be loose. When I installed my Cobb TIP the OEM one came off by hand without loosening the clamps. +1 on the Hypertech.

last post about this, but I just wanted to say thanks for all your info. I checked all my connections everything towards the k04 was in good shape and tight, my problem was the tip kept slipping off because of the CS shitty clamp. picked one up at HD and made a few adjustments not too mention I only hand tightened my MAF (stupid move) so im sure that effected it. Everything seems to be in good shape now. I still don't hit full boost in the early gears but from 3rd on im okay. a lot better than before. thanks again.

[MSMS3]

Glad you got it fixed or better. You need the clamp tight on the TIP, because you don't want it sucking in unmetered and dirty air. But a leak there will not lower boost, because there is no boost there. That is in front of the turbo. It's your connections AFTER the K04 that may need attention. Every hose and clamp from the first elbow between the turbo and intercooler to the bypass valve and the last one going into the engine's throttle body.

How much boost are you generating in second gear?

[intrigueturbo]

Thanks to everyone for the huge amount of information in this thread!!

[DevilSpeed]

Going to make this a lot easier. Awesome

Rice say whaaaaaa

[Tunedspeed6]

Just installed the cobb tih on my speed 6. And i feel like i've actually lost power? Is it possible that my cobb ap running the stage 1 SRI only tune has turned things down bc it's noticed the extra air and that using the stage 1 SRI and TIH tune will fix my problem? Or have i done something wrong? Its not a huge power loss and i can still feel when the turbo spools up but it just doesnt pull as hard. Thanks in advance for the help.

[dtrackstar]

I'm on Sri and tip with stage 1 ots and I noticed gains in the butt dyno

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[RedMS3]

Great Thread
Thank you

[Disiguy]

Best intake you guy think?

[state_of_max]

Originally Posted by Disiguy Best intake you guy think?

A lot of people run HTP. IIRC.

[my2k13speed3]

Originally Posted by Disiguy Best intake you guy think?

Just all depends on what your goals are

[VirtueMS3]

With all the talk above about IATs, I have a question around that. My '08 MS3 came with a COBB SRI & TIP and it sounds as great as it feels. My question is seeing that I didn't have to invest in the Intake system would it be worth it at all to invest in the CorkSport Power Series Cold Air Box? From the first time I opened the hood on my MS3 the amount of heat that flowed out was "concerning", and seeing the filter of the SRI sitting in the middle of that bay was equally concerning to me. Is the difference, if any, that the Cold Air Box would make worth the $100 investment?

[mituc]

I have that CAI box and it is one of the reasons why I didn't want to give up on the Cobb intake after going big turbo. Apart from some legal-ish aspects around here of having a box to contain the air filter, after fitting the box I noticed a decrease in IATs of about 7-8 degrees Celsius at the same speed, after driving the same amount of time at the same ambient temperature. The IATs now are one degree Celsius above the ambient.
When the car is idling for a long time in bumper to bumper traffic the heat would dissipate a lot quicker and build up a lot slower.
Also, the air filter is getting dirty more evenly.

I just purchased a JBR Tru 3" intake and I'm going to hack the CS CAI box to make it fit the new intake - if that's going to seem possible. So if you want to spend 100 bucks on your car in my opinion you will spend them well on a CAI box, whoever is making it.

[VirtueMS3]

Originally Posted by mituc I have that CAI box and it is one of the reasons why I didn't want to give up on the Cobb intake after going big turbo. Apart from some legal-ish aspects around here of having a box to contain the air filter, after fitting the box I noticed a decrease in IATs of about 7-8 degrees Celsius at the same speed, after driving the same amount of time at the same ambient temperature. The IATs now are one degree Celsius above the ambient. When the car is idling for a long time in bumper to bumper traffic the heat would dissipate a lot quicker and build up a lot slower. Also, the air filter is getting dirty more evenly. I just purchased a JBR Tru 3" intake and I'm going to hack the CS CAI box to make it fit the new intake - if that's going to seem possible. So if you want to spend 100 bucks on your car in my opinion you will spend them well on a CAI box, whoever is making it.

That is really good to know, thank you.

[davespeed1]

So I have done ap and autotech internals. It's between the 3" jbr or 3" htp..... What would you buy?

[darkstar november]

so i have the injen cai right now. yes, point and laugh, i got it cheap. and i was going to buy a corksport turbo inlet pipe. i read somwhere that it works togather but doesnt fit perfect. what was the issue?

[mituc]

The CS TIP or pretty much any TIP available on the market is a direct replacement for the factory TIP.
However, most of them do not have that mounting ear to secure it with that bolt just near the HPFP (IIRC the CP-E TIP has it, not sure about any others). So the problem I can see with the Injen CAI would be the play of the intake ducts because to the weight and length of that CAI.

[darkstar november]

Originally Posted by mituc The CS TIP or pretty much any TIP available on the market is a direct replacement for the factory TIP. However, most of them do not have that mounting ear to secure it with that bolt just near the HPFP (IIRC the CP-E TIP has it, not sure about any others). So the problem I can see with the Injen CAI would be the play of the intake ducts because to the weight and length of that CAI.

ah, thats not a big deal, im sure itll be fine then. just wondering if i needed to buy anything else random before it came in

[aromig]

Originally Posted by mituc The CS TIP or pretty much any TIP available on the market is a direct replacement for the factory TIP. However, most of them do not have that mounting ear to secure it with that bolt just near the HPFP (IIRC the CP-E TIP has it, not sure about any others). So the problem I can see with the Injen CAI would be the play of the intake ducts because to the weight and length of that CAI.

The CorkSport and JBR TIPs utilize that bolt as well. The JBR is only in one pic on their site (4th pic, kinda hard to see), but it connects to a t-clamp on the inlet and holds everything nice and secure. The design allows for adjustment if necessary.

Sent from my GS3 running CM11, via FapDaCock