Going BIG

[Celestspeed3]

Well here we have my prep to go BIG. I have a spare engine in my garage although not in working order, it will be rebuilt as a spare for when I decide to do something BIG. The spare transmission looks like it will be here around the end of January or early February. Both of these will be put together to make a complete spare powertrain. Should anything happen I'll only be looking at a day or so of downtime to swap the motor and transmission.

Now for the interesting part. I have ordered a TIG welder and a bead roller (although once I get the welder I may just make a bead roller to save some $$). I want to make parts that are the way I want them. I'm tired of people charging a top dollar for not so top parts. So if you guys can think of anything you want made up let me know and we can make this happen.

As some of you know, I have a big hard on for twin scroll. So my BT will be twin scroll, it's now just a matter of options and setup. A few things that I have had a hard time figuring out is what effect does a different AR turbine housing have on our setup. I know what AR stands for an means, and I know the difference between the different sizes. What I don't know is how this affects performance on our platform, this is compounded by going twin scroll.

Before we go any further let's review the goals of my platform. +400whp (or as close as the stock fueling system will get me) and as good of a spool as I can get. I want to chase the modded M3's at the track. leading me into the next part of this, having higher torque at lower RPM's just results in wheel spin and spending money on tires. So would it be advantageous to go with a larger turbo or would it be better to limit torque via tuning in the lower RPM band and lower gears.

My guess would be to do a twin scroll GTX3076 now the question of which turbine housing. From what I can find online, most people who have gone twin scroll suggest that a divided T4 flange is better than a divided T3 flange. After looking at the size of our exhaust ports and the size of the divided housings I will have to agree with this. The other issue is the divided T4 flanges start with an AR of about 1.06 and go up from there. most of these setups are on GT35 turbos,. The reports seem to suggest that the divided 1.06 housing spools faster than the 0.63 undivided housing. If I were to use this same housing on a GTX3076 would I experience the same effect as with the GT35? Could I get the GTX3076 to spool as if it had the ATP 0.55 housing while still making the top end power that would be possible using a larger AR turbine such as a 0.84?

[Abu Zib]

Good luck with the build!

[dooderek]

you should sell your spare tranny to 06speed06

[predapio]

Fucking Eh!

DO IT....good luck with the build.

[Celestspeed3]

Thanks guys, this won't be an overnight build but I will document everything in detail.

[rghispanic88]

need pics

[Celestspeed3]

Took the motor apart yesterday with BlueStreak.

We found out what happens when you try to change your timing chain without the proper timing tools.


engine 2011-12-27 at 19-21-17 by Celestial View, on Flickr

All the exhaust valves are bent right across the board, not allowing any of the cylinders to make compression.

Other than that the motor is in relatively good shape aside from the gummed up intake valves.

________________


Can anyone recommend a set of valves? I'd like to do inconel exhaust valves but all the info I find is for the NA duratec.
Apparently the valves work you just need to change the guides out. Has anyone had an experience with this or will I be the first?
Or do we finally have off the shelve valves made by someone?

Has anyone done oversized valves with success +1mm maybe?

The intake valves are pretty close but I wonder if it can be done safely?

[Celestspeed3]

On to the next step.

I'd like to run inconel exhaust valves on this build. So far the only valves I have been able to find are +1mm inconel valves for the NA 2.3 engine. The valves are the same size except for the stem. The turbo valves are 0.5mm thicker. This prevents them from being a direct swap without swapping the valve guides. So I picked up the two valve guides to compare them.

On the left you have the NA 2.3 valve guide and on the right you have the Turbo 2.3 valve guide.


Engine 2011-12-30 at 13-50-09 by Celestial View, on Flickr


Engine 2011-12-30 at 13-49-31 by Celestial View, on Flickr


Engine 2011-12-30 at 13-52-10 by Celestial View, on Flickr

At first glance they appear to have the same height and the same OD. The only difference that is noticeable is that the chamfered edges on the valves are at different angles. The inside diameter is of course larger on the turbo valve guide as expected. The turbo valve guide on one edge is bored slightly larger and looks to be about 3-4mm deep. The turbo valve guide also has a machined edge on the outside of the opposite end of the larger bore. At this point I can only assume that it is there to tell you when you have pressed the valve guide far enough in the head.

Next week I will be taking the head and the new guides to the same machine shop that built Bluestreak's two engines. So they are plenty familiar with the 2.3L DISI engines already. I hope they can give me some answers as if the NA valve guides are compatible or not.

[Celestspeed3]

Here's the latest update.


Engine 2012-01-05 at 16-46-29 by Celestial View, on Flickr

Here was the damage done to the exhaust valves. Each valve was around $45 at the dealer so it turns out it's cheaper for me to swap the valves out to inconel valves from Supertech which are $25 each.

Some news on the valve guides. THEY WORK !!! for anyone looking to do inconel exhaust valves you will need to change the valve guides. The stock valve has one side counter bored this is done to relieve some of the heat on the valve. Your machine shop should counter bore the new guides to the same size and depth as the OEM guide. This should be very easy for them to do. Other than that the guides are a direct swap.

Part # for the new guides are LFY1-10-281

This is one of the intake valves that were removed.


Engine 2012-01-05 at 16-46-10 by Celestial View, on Flickr

This motor had about 100,000km (~60,000miles) The carbon buildup was pretty bad. This was to be expected though. My intake valves and seats will also be over-sized, so PFFF to those who say it can't be done. The maximum oversize the stock seat and valve can accommodate is about 0.5mm. Since my exhaust valves are getting a +1mm and the intake will be matched at 0.5mm. This should be almost equal in terms of surface area added to both sides. The intake side can be over-sized to +1mm but it will require changing the seat. I didn't feel the cost involved would net me what it was worth.

This an example of how much the exhaust side is opened up during porting just to give some people an idea of what happens during this process if you haven't seen it before.


Engine 2012-01-05 at 17-15-32 by Celestial View, on Flickr

[Celestspeed3]

So a new toy came in the mail today. A special thanks Eric and JP at Edge Autosport you guys are the best.

So here it is. GTX3076 with a Tial 0.82A/R turbine housing.


Engine 2012-01-16 at 17-11-14 by Celestial View, on Flickr


Engine 2012-01-16 at 17-11-30 by Celestial View, on Flickr


Engine 2012-01-16 at 17-12-09 by Celestial View, on Flickr


Engine 2012-01-16 at 17-13-11 by Celestial View, on Flickr

I will be using this with a Tial 38mm wastegate, hopefully that will be enough.

Now the sad news, the carrillo rods I wanted are on a 6 week back order. So we now have a 6 week wait.

[PapaSmurf]

goodluck man! Good choice on turbo, you dont want to fast of a spool because of FWD.

[Celestspeed3]

I figure I would try something a little different. I wanted to go twin scroll T4 but Leen said he wasn't making anymore twin manifolds. So I decided to do the next best thing, Tial housings.

[PapaSmurf]

I'll sell you my twinscroll T3 manifold haha

Same one u wanted but T3 TS instead of T4 ha

[Jake5713]

Looks amazing


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=44.739603,-93.136862
-Jake

[Celestspeed3]

Originally Posted by PapaSmurf I'll sell you my twinscroll T3 manifold haha Same one u wanted but T3 TS instead of T4 ha

Dammit, if only I knew that 2 weeks ago. Oh well all the parts are ordered for this already.

[Celestspeed3]

Finally received some new parts today, Supertech Inconel valves and the CP-E Stage 2 pistons.

Valves

Engine 2012-02-06 at 11-33-53 by Celestial View, on Flickr


Engine 2012-02-06 at 11-33-06 by Celestial View, on Flickr

This is the Supertech Inconel +1mm Exhaust valve. To fit these in the MZR turbo engine just swap out the valve guides for the NA motor. Easy breezy. I have the valve seals too but I didn't see the point in photographing them.


On to the pistons.

The CP-E stage 2 pistons are similar to the design of the Gen2 stock pistons but I don't have any of those to compare them too so I took some photos next to a gen1 piston since I figure this is what most people have anyway.


Engine 2012-02-06 at 11-41-09 by Celestial View, on Flickr


Engine 2012-02-06 at 11-44-15 by Celestial View, on Flickr


Engine 2012-02-06 at 11-44-48 by Celestial View, on Flickr


Engine 2012-02-06 at 11-45-12 by Celestial View, on Flickr


Engine 2012-02-06 at 11-43-29 by Celestial View, on Flickr

I don't think anyone has shown this pistons next to the stock ones before so feel free to discus.

[forcedinduktion]

good stuff!

[rghispanic88]

turbo with the tial looks like sex

some of the pics arent working BTW

mind shedding some light on the purpose of the design of the CP-e rods

[Celestspeed3]

Fixed the photo links.

The CP-E pistons are shaped to bring the fuel up to the spark plug an concentrate the burn. It will be interesting to find out if they offer some blow-out resistance.

[djuosnteisn]

Good valve data, and looks like a sweet build.

So you'll be using the turbo valve seals, right?

And are you going to post up more info on the intake valves once that's proven?

[rfinkle2]

Man do I wish I lived closer to you guys (Bluestreak, Celeste, DJ and CKmazdaspeed3).

Best of luck with the build. I'm all about keeping up with this thread.

[Celestspeed3]

I am using the valve seals supplied by Supertech for the NA valves. The stock exhaust seals don't prove to last. When I had the head dis-assembled at the machine shop the exhaust seals crumbled right off when they flipped the head.

The intake valves can be swapped as well with changing the guides. The engine builder suggested that I leave the stock valves and guides in place for the build because it would prove no advantages in changing them. The stock valves are stainless steel nitride coated. If I went with a Supertech valve I would only be changing the valve stem diameter. There is not enough room to safely run larger intake valves without changing the seats and running a very very small margin on the valves. They didn't feel the cost involved would be worth the change.

I'm also using stock springs and retainers on the advice of the machine shop. They advised that unless I change the cams there was no reason to change the springs and retainers out. I mentioned to them about cams for the this motor but they are re-grinds to my knowledge and they advised against re-grinds.


EDIT: On the topic of seals they mentioned that the carbon buildup on the intake valves could also be in part to worn valve seals in conjunction with the PVC and EGR. They are looking into the part #'s they used for Bluestreak's and my motor. I will post that up when I have the info.

[djuosnteisn]

Thanks for the tips.

I think i'll do the supertech's on my next motor. If it's this simple, why not lol.

[Celestspeed3]

That's why I didn't understand when some guys made a big fuss over valves. Supertech told me there is no point in make 6mm stem valves when if you change the guides they will work no problem with 5.5mm stem valves. I also had the option to go with bronze valve guides but it was suggested I run the iron stock ones for wear resistance. While the bronze ones transfer more heat they don't last as long. To help handle the heat the full exhaust port is getting ceramic coated as well. With the inconel valves the machine shop was much less concerned about the heat issue even if running at 1600F for extended periods of time.

[mazdafreak]

Subbed.

[06Speed6]

Nice info, the web cams that I had are not regrinds. They are hard welded and ground back to the factory base circle spec with a different lift profile. Regrinds reduce the base circle and require new buckets and maybe shims, I wouldnt recommend that either.

[EdgeAutosport.com]

Good luck with the build man and thanks for all the business let us know if you need anything else!

[Celestspeed3]

I sure will, you and JP have been great.

[Celestspeed3]

I got some more goodies from JP this week.

My rods finally came in so whenever the machine shop is done with my head they can start on the block.

I also got my Tial stuff as well. The Type Q BOV and the MV-R wastegate.

I set the wastegate up for 7psi as per my discussion with Fobio who will be tuning the motor. For those interested the wastegate comes with springs to set it from 4.5psi to 21psi. between all of the combinations.

Also to anyone running the Type Q you will need the 12psi spring which is yellow and pink. My spring said 12psi on is and that is the rating on the older 50mm valve. The same spring in the Q is 11psi. So that is the one you will need if you go this route.


Tial 2012-02-23 at 11-11-00 by Celestial View, on Flickr


Tial 2012-02-23 at 11-12-36 by Celestial View, on Flickr

I was surprised to see just how big the MV-R was. I will be setting mine up for water cooling and I will be using the coolant path from the TB bypass to plumb the MV-R.


I also cleaned up the garage today. Nator North is ready to go and when the build is done this is where we will be swapping the motor.


Tial 2012-02-23 at 14-57-29 by Celestial View, on Flickr

[Jackis]

Garage is the best from all the pics above LOL
Good luck for the build!

[mazdafreak]

Jealous....Hopefully this summer i can get my bt going.

[Celestspeed3]

Here's the latest mock up of something I received in the mail recently. Before you ask, the compressor housing is not clocked properly. I haven't decided which way to mount it yet.


engine 2012-03-04 at 11-24-04 by Celestial View, on Flickr


engine 2012-03-04 at 11-24-42 by Celestial View, on Flickr


engine 2012-03-04 at 11-25-42 by Celestial View, on Flickr

A few notes about the manifold.

The entire mocked up setup as you see if here is 37.5lbs according to the bathroom scale.

The wastegate is a bitch to install you really have to force the seat down to mount it. I highly doubt anything will leak ever out of the wastegate.

The wastegate design is not optimum for flow but due to chassis constraints it's the best you're going to get.

The manifold as seen in the first picture has recesses for the stock bolts so it's easier to get tools around the nuts.

[shadesofgray19]

Subbed for more sexy pics and results.

[jmhinkle]

subbed hoping for working pics.

[HPFPUPGRADE]

Originally Posted by Celestspeed3 I am using the valve seals supplied by Supertech for the NA valves. The stock exhaust seals don't prove to last. When I had the head dis-assembled at the machine shop the exhaust seals crumbled right off when they flipped the head. The intake valves can be swapped as well with changing the guides. The engine builder suggested that I leave the stock valves and guides in place for the build because it would prove no advantages in changing them. The stock valves are stainless steel nitride coated. If I went with a Supertech valve I would only be changing the valve stem diameter. There is not enough room to safely run larger intake valves without changing the seats and running a very very small margin on the valves. They didn't feel the cost involved would be worth the change. I'm also using stock springs and retainers on the advice of the machine shop. They advised that unless I change the cams there was no reason to change the springs and retainers out. I mentioned to them about cams for the this motor but they are re-grinds to my knowledge and they advised against re-grinds. EDIT: On the topic of seals they mentioned that the carbon buildup on the intake valves could also be in part to worn valve seals in conjunction with the PVC and EGR. They are looking into the part #'s they used for Bluestreak's and my motor. I will post that up when I have the info.

Don't run regrinds, run "profiled" cams. Keeps the stock base circle of the cam. This is what we do!

[Celestspeed3]

What exactly is a profiled cam?

[XLT_66]

Any update here?

[Celestspeed3]

BACK FROM THE DEAD, or rather the machine shop.

I finally got the head back and the block is dropped off.


Engine 2012-05-14 at 16-47-37 by Celestial View, on Flickr



Engine 2012-05-14 at 16-48-15 by Celestial View, on Flickr



Engine 2012-05-14 at 16-50-01 by Celestial View, on Flickr

Everything is nice and ceramic coated, will the coating make a difference only time and tuning will find out.

[Evan@COBB]

Looks nice! Are all the runners coated as well?

[Celestspeed3]

Yes the exhaust runners are ceramic coated as well. The exhaust manifold, turbine housing, and downpipe will be ceramic coated as well.