E85 Discussion - HPFP lubrication and Flow issues

[JacksonMS30]

Originally Posted by dsmluck You plan on running that % of E85 for daily driving duty?

Not daily as I don't have a station close to me. I bought 15 gallons in 3 5 gallon cans and I have used one so far. Gonna use the 2nd on the drag strip this friday to try and pull out a 12.9 or perhaps a little lower.
I think I would like to run a little bit more per tank but no more than 45% until it is proven a little more.

I think he was asking if you knock on 93 to see if that hurt the calculated power of 93 vs E85.

I do not get any KR on my 93 tune either. I run a 50/50 mix of WMI so no KR. And it was pretty flat both times I used the dyno feature.

[phate]

Back on track for a second. I pulled the spill valve solenoid last night, and it had a light coating of residue on it. Not black nasty crap, but just enough to make the solenoid malfunction. Cleaned it up, and its running perfectly. The spill valve parts, though, look much, much better after this 250 miles. There was no gunk buildup on them, so I just put them back in without cleaning.

I pulled apart the solenoid and took some pics, but I left my camera in the garage. I'll upload the pics tonight and update this post with them.

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I've never used the AP's dyno feature, but if I remember correctly it only gives you peak numbers. Even if it is dead accurate, peak numbers are not the whole picture, but really just a tiny snippet.

Comparing E85 and gasoline on the same tune is unfair - one may be closer to optimized, the other may run like garbage. The only way to do an apples to apples comparison of gas vs e85 vs eXX would be to optimize each tune and compare. Timing and AFR have to be dialed in for each one, since flame front speed will differ significantly between the mixtures.

Edit: The higher gasoline content mixtures may reach the detonation threshold sooner, preventing a true comparison between the mixtures, also.

Edit 2: When I say same tune, I am considering same timing/AFR/Boost, but with the MAF curve dialed in for each mixture.

[djuosnteisn]

He has an e85 tune, but it's a rough street tune. I sent him 3 maps with varying timing advance, and with proper maf calibration for the mix (logged afr's match target).

He tried the 3 and found that the map with the least amount of timing advance resulted in the most butt dyno gains. I told him to stick with that one until we can do a bit of research on the dyno.

I'm not a fan of street tuning for e85, not when there's so little (none??) dyno information about what's typical timing values for various mix ratios. And i'm even more leery of "e-tuning" for it, hahaha.


Eventually i'd like to get some dyno time in with a few of the locals on various mixes.

[amoosenamedhank]

Originally Posted by phate Back on track for a second. I pulled the spill valve solenoid last night, and it had a light coating of residue on it. Not black nasty crap, but just enough to make the solenoid malfunction. Cleaned it up, and its running perfectly. The spill valve parts, though, look much, much better after this 250 miles. There was no gunk buildup on them, so I just put them back in without cleaning. I pulled apart the solenoid and took some pics, but I left my camera in the garage. I'll upload the pics tonight and update this post with them. ____________________ I've never used the AP's dyno feature, but if I remember correctly it only gives you peak numbers. Even if it is dead accurate, peak numbers are not the whole picture, but really just a tiny snippet. Comparing E85 and gasoline on the same tune is unfair - one may be closer to optimized, the other may run like garbage. The only way to do an apples to apples comparison of gas vs e85 vs eXX would be to optimize each tune and compare. Timing and AFR have to be dialed in for each one, since flame front speed will differ significantly between the mixtures. Edit: The higher gasoline content mixtures may reach the detonation threshold sooner, preventing a true comparison between the mixtures, also. Edit 2: When I say same tune, I am considering same timing/AFR/Boost, but with the MAF curve dialed in for each mixture.

How many miles total since you started with 100% E-85? Seems like even with the inline filter, for those of us interested in swap, we have a long road of gunk breaking loose and clogging things up before the system is cleaned out.

[phate]

OK, I reread the posts and figured it out, haha. I thought he was switching between E85 mix and gas on the same tune and noting the difference. I haven't had enough coffee yet, today.

I totally agree here about timing. Going beyond MBT on the street would be quite easy to do with E85.

Edit: you posted while I was posting. @amoosenamedhank, I've run straight E85 for 600-700 miles.

[I Love Brownies]

DJ we can get me on the dyno with some E85 so you can learn to tune for it better

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by ms307nm DJ we can get me on the dyno with some E85 so you can learn to tune for it better

I can make an appointment whenever you want. I'd like to setup on the rollers for at least an hour, and go in with a pure petrol tank, and a like 3 gal e85 in a 5 gal tank. Verify timing on the pump first, then add the e85 and re tune the timing.

It's $120 an hour. I'm going out of town both this weekend and the next, but after that, i'm game.

[I Love Brownies]

ok just let me know when you book the dyno and I will bring cash.

[Nitr0EngiE]

Originally Posted by phate Scratch that, I just found an article from Hitachi that alludes to the current design being non-resistant to E85. Page 357, next to last paragraph: http://www.hitachi.com/ICSFiles/afie...009_07_111.pdf

does this indicate it has a DLC coating already or they are going to investigate adding it ?

[Nataphen]

Are there any tips for using the AP dyno to show the most accurate results? I run on flat road, but every time I do it, I get stupidly high numbers. This morning, I did one in 4th from 3500-6000, and it said I made 478hp, LOL. That's the kind of results I always get with it, not just this once.

Would it be wise for JacksonMS30 to install a pump filter as phate has done? I know he's not running 100%, but wouldn't SOME of that same gunk still be building up? Just trying to look out for you, man. I wonder what the deal is with the Cobalt SS DI system that seems to make it easier for them to run e85.

[JacksonMS30]

Originally Posted by Nataphen Would it be wise for JacksonMS30 to install a pump filter as phate has done? I know he's not running 100%, but wouldn't SOME of that same gunk still be building up? Just trying to look out for you, man. I wonder what the deal is with the Cobalt SS DI system that seems to make it easier for them to run e85.

I'll probably be installing a filter if e85 ever comes to my area and I can run it more often.

The cobalts are having problems now too though. My buddy with the turbo cobalt on 100% e85 is maxing out his fuel pump (as of this week). He can get halfway through fourth gear before the rest of fourth and all of fith is just sputtering. I pointed him towards autotech and KMD though I know they don't make anything for the cobalt as of yet. But maybe he will be able to get something going with them. This still doesn't change the fact that the cobalt gets much better gains from e85 than what we have seen so far. However, @phate could be about to change that for us. I'm really looking forward to his findings and I really appreciate his efforts.

[Nitr0EngiE]

I found E85 in Tampa

ill post the address when i get it

I talked to a guy with a 500hp evo and he says hes running E85 when he goes to the track and i flip out because i googled every possible search string and cannot find E85 in tampa, but according to him there is a pump by the USF campus on by fletcher and bruce b downs.

[Speed3eak]

I was thinking about this last night, and I'm curious to see how the coating holds up on the fuel pump internals.

I'm also in for some dynos - if phate makes 300+ whp on e85 on the stock turbo on 15-16 psi then I might forgo getting a bigger turbo altogether. Especially considering the fact that he averaged nearly 26 mpg highway. I'm really excited about this, and that's not just because e85 is cheaper than 87 octane (right? I thought it was at least) haha

[rfinkle2]

Growth Energy Market Development

[jracer]

Originally Posted by Nitr0EngiE I found E85 in Tampa ill post the address when i get it I talked to a guy with a 500hp evo and he says hes running E85 when he goes to the track and i flip out because i googled every possible search string and cannot find E85 in tampa, but according to him there is a pump by the USF campus on by fletcher and bruce b downs.

yes please post info !!

[Nitr0EngiE]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Growth Energy Market Development

yah this site does not show the station here in tampa, according to that map i would have to drive 100 miles to orlando one way to get it or 40 miles to lakeland, all of which wont work.

or 12 miles Mcdill Airforce base, but i dont think i need to explain why this is no good for me.

[Fatguy729]

I've been following this thread since the beginning, and haven't commented cuz most of you guys > Fatguy in every department dealing with cars. However, I am fucking STOKED to see if we can run a fully bolted K04 MS3 on e85 safely. Especially with all the benifits... and Cobb employees chiming in here (perhaps baseline OTS e85 map?) I am almost fully bolted. I have a CNT catted DP on the way, and saving for internals... I was gonna go protune after that, but e85 may be my next step now!


I have e85 stations every 10 miles or so around me! (maybe cuz the plants make it here in Indiana?)


Phate... You are the fucking man!




Edit: any thoughts on how winter would effect a car tuned for e85 if at all?

...

[zenger]

as soon as I get this damned cpe fuel pump I'm tuning my car for E85. Will report findings.

[bnoon]

Phate, thanks for pushing the E85 barriers with this platform. I ran E85 for over a year with my Silverado SS and had nothing but good results. I'm a little scared about the fuel goo issues you're having though...

[Nitr0EngiE]

Originally Posted by Fatguy729 Edit: any thoughts on how winter would effect a car tuned for e85 if at all? ...

i think where its cold enough they will sell a winter blend of E85

[phate]

As promised, this is the spill valve solenoid taken even further apart. This pic shows the normal position of the solenoid in the background. The foreground picture shows how it pushes out just a little bit.


That little groove in the foreground solenoid is where the split ring lock sits. The split ring lock simply keeps the solenoid from pushing back through the sleeve. You can sorta see how the two halves should sit in that groove here:


Once the two lock halves are out, you just push the solenoid back through the sleeve (towards the connector end):


And that's about it. This is the sleeve. You can see where the O-ring on the solenoid sits:


Nothing spectacular, but I thought the overall design of the spill valve and solenoid is pretty neat.

____________________

For the cold weather questions: Even when the car has sufficient fuel pressure when cranking, a totally cold engine (left overnight) is hesitant to start on the first crank. The second crank seems to be sufficient to start the car and get it into the fast idle range. After that, everything seems fine.

[Fatguy729]

Quick question... Do you think gradually switching to e85 by upping the e85 to gas ratio would help with the gunk issue? Maybe to where it would burn up in smaller quantities without having to dismantle the fuel system 20 times? I'm nervous enough to do my internals, and I already helped a friend do his

With that, I'm done with my noobitry... And will bow out till the resolution of this thread

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Nitr0EngiE i think where its cold enough they will sell a winter blend of E85

Iirc it's e70 in the winter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[phate]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 Iirc it's e70 in the winter.

Yes, we are supposed to have a minimum of 70% ethanol in the winter for E85 blends in central illinois.

[Dano]

I guess the higher % of petrol helps with the cold starts??

[phate]

Originally Posted by Fatguy729 Quick question... Do you think gradually switching to e85 by upping the e85 to gas ratio would help with the gunk issue? Maybe to where it would burn up in smaller quantities without having to dismantle the fuel system 20 times? I'm nervous enough to do my internals, and I already helped a friend do his With that, I'm done with my noobitry... And will bow out till the resolution of this thread

That's tough to say since so few people are trying E85. If any of the guys running partial E85 mixes would pull their pumps, we might see if there is any buildup on the internals. No reason to be worried about the fuel pumps - I no longer subscribe to the idea that these things are as fragile as what some have thought. [Did you see the earlier pictures? haha]

Edit: I've said this a couple of times in the thread - I believe a fuel filter is a good idea for anyone wanting to go this route.

Originally Posted by Dano2010 I guess the higher % of petrol helps with the cold starts??

Yep, that's the idea.

[Dano]

riddle me this. Could it be better to run a higher heat range plug when running E85?

This might help to combat cold starts and make more power.

The hotter the plug the more power, considering we run colder plugs to combat knock and there is no such thing with E85.

[driver311]

Good stuff in here. Im gonna get back on board with e85 mixtures here soon. I think Im gonna stick with 50/50. I will probably go to the dyno sometime next month to see what if any gains there is just going from straight 93 to a 50/50 mix. Im guessing there is gonna be a 5% gain with no other changes. My car straight felt faster with it in there.

Phate I sent ya a pm. Thanks for all the work you been doing on this. The srt4 I just converted to e85 straight got me back on board. We gained huge power in his car. I would put 3-4 cars on him easy from a roll before and now at same boost, e85 and more timing he is neck and neck with me. Im gonna go out on a limb and say he gained 30-40whp. His car will hit the dyno next week hopefully. His car dynoed 301whp on pump maxed out before. So we will see.

[Fatguy729]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 riddle me this. Could it be better to run a higher heat range plug when running E85? This might help to combat cold starts and make more power. The hotter the plug the more power, considering we run colder plugs to combat knock and there is no such thing with E85.

Oh shit... Cobbs explanation for needing colder plugs is cuz of the extra heat associated with higher k04 boost. With e85 apparently the heat problems are diminished. This is a very valid theory IMO. Touche Sir!

[cld12pk2go]

Here is a link to E85 grades by location and month:

E85 Mustangs.com - Regional Fuel Chart by state

They do specifically go to less ethanol to minimize cold start issues during colder months. Of course, with that said, I have had zero issues with up to 5 gallons of E85 and 2 heat range colder plugs even when it is ~20°F outside...

[John]

In California (SF Bay Area) I have not seen a test below 80% ethanol, we have consistent 85% year round. We did have one gas station that had 'bad' E-85, but after it re-opened it was around 90%.

The Evo doesn't like cold mornings, but just needs a gentle warm-up.

[phate]

Car craft had an article about a blown small block chevy running E85. They touched on the spark plug requirements compared to gasoline here: Using E85 Pump Gas - Tech - Carb - Car Craft Magazine

[Dano]

interesting...so even colder plugs may be needed not hotter to prevent pre-ignition.

[phate]

Just from that article, it looks like it. I've put in queries to a couple of the online spark plug retailers to see what they have to say. I'm running ITV-22's, and I'm going to stick with them for now.

[superskaterxes]

lol u might be going to 27's after that haha

[Calvin@COBB]

Originally Posted by phate Car craft had an article about a blown small block chevy running E85. They touched on the spark plug requirements compared to gasoline here: Using E85 Pump Gas - Tech - Carb - Car Craft Magazine

It would be interesting to see the original article to see what heat range they started with, my guess they started with a heat range that was way too hot for a high compression super charged engine.

From my experience with Subie's and EVO's a stock heat range plug works best for E85. It helps with cold starts and low load part throttle driveability.

As far as E85 being more pron to pre-ignition than gasoline, all the MSDS sheets I have seen have the auto ignition temp for both fuels being the same >250*c. So I would like to see some factual data to back up that statement other than that some one at Bosch "told them so". Just my .02

Calvin@COBB

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Calvin@COBB It would be interesting to see the original article to see what heat range they started with, my guess they started with a heat range that was way too hot for a high compression super charged engine. From my experience with Subie's and EVO's a stock heat range plug works best for E85. It helps with cold starts and low load part throttle driveability. As far as E85 being more pron to pre-ignition than gasoline, all the MSDS sheets I have seen have the auto ignition temp for both fuels being the same >250*c. So I would like to see some factual data to back up that statement other than that some one at Bosch "told them so". Just my .02 Calvin@COBB

From some quick googling, it would appear that the autoignition temp of gasoline is ~250°C and ethanol is ~360°C...

Thus, the E85 should be less susceptible to autoignition especially considering its much higher latent heat of evaporation...

[phate]

Alright, since I replaced the filter I've driven just over 600 miles. No problems this round - no pressure loss and the car is running very well. I pulled the pump completely apart tonight and there was still some gunk on the internals and spill valve. Less gunk than the original pictures, by far, but with 20x the mileage

For everyone's reference, the fuel line I used was L33X-13-49XA and the fuel filter I used was for an 03-04 SVT Cobra.

[phate]

Ok, guys, I've been driving the car quite a bit lately with nothing unusual to report. No pressure loss and the car seems to run well, overall. I think the MAF scaling has thrown off the tip-in enrichment: in a cruising scenario around 1500-2000 rpm the car hesitates slightly if you give it too much throttle too quickly and it goes a little lean. Nothing I'm worried about, its pretty easy to drive around.

After wasting a bunch of time with load tuning the car, I have switched to boost tuning. I've been slowly (I mean creeping) increasing the boost and watching injector duty cycle/AFR/how the car runs. In the last couple of days I've tried to do some comparative testing of fueling, but just changing the top end fueling and leaving other parameters has proven troublesome.

I have a 12.2:1 AFR tune that pulls hard and smooth all the way up to my rev limiter of 6150rpm. Changing this tune to 11.2:1 (and only changing the fueling tables) results in lower WGDC and ~.5lb less boost over the entire upper rev range (>4k rpm). This occurs even after I increase WGDC targets in the richer map by ~1 point (I will play with this more in the future). Between the fueling and lower boost, the rich(er) tune feels much slower than the 12.2:1 tune. In both tunes, I feel I am running very conservative timing with only 4° @ 3k rpm up to 11° @ 6k rpm.

The 11.2:1 tune has hit an injector duty cycle of 106.09%, but I can't see or feel a difference in how the car runs at >100% duty cycle. The 12.2:1 tune decreases the max injector duty cycle by ~8% to a max of 96.x% (obviously).

The last observation I have with the E85 - high BAT's don't seem to phase how the car runs any more. I have seen ~140* BAT's and the car still pulls damned hard. I've slightly reduced the amount of timing pulled for high BAT's and it runs well.

Anyway, I could continue to ramble about this stuff, but I'll just attach the datalogs so you guys can check it out. [MSF now supports .xlsx files!!]

____________________

Future goals:

-Get different fueling targets dialed in to run similar boost curves. I think the 11.2:1, 12.2:1, and I would like to try a 12.7:1 map. Once they are consistently running well, timing can be tested.

-I still want to get my injectors cleaned. The last time I pulled the pump there was still some residue. I really don't want to pull my injectors until I know the pump is clean. Yes, this is risky.

____________________

My totally subjective opinion of how the car runs: it pulls hard - like 30° weather hard - on the low end up to ~5k rpm (not dependent of tune). After that it seems to fall off a bit, which could be boost related or timing related (probably both). E85 has let me experience something new - 3rd gear tire spin. The car has never done it before and E85/tune is my only recent change.

____________________

Cliff notes because this isn't a terribly worthwhile post:

-No pressure loss since the second filter was put in - about 900 miles worth
-Car pulls hard even with high BAT's
-Going to test different fueling targets, then test timing with said fueling scenarios

-I'm doing all of this very slowly

[Speed3eak]

I'd also like to see how the egt's are on e85 with the 12.7:1 afrs (~.86 lambda), when you do that of course.

For those of you in this thread running e85 on other platforms, what lambdas do you target with e85?