E85 - going too lean @ WOT

[OCspeed]

I recently decided to go with a 50/50 E85/91oct mix to get the most out of the car. For my first fill up, I went 5 gallons of e85 to 5 gallons of 91 oct.

I edited my FSG and fuel scalars according to Phate's fuel mix cheat sheet, and I am currently targeting 11.6 AFR's.. My problem is that when I tried my first run at WOT to log, I right away experience practically out of control AFR's hitting low 10's to high 12's randomly

Is there something I am missing that I need to change in order to control my AFR's better, or do I simply need to do a OL MAF cal to get everything in order and closer to hitting my 11.6 AFR target?

[tornado842]

You are running "lean" from 3800-4200. This may be due to the wheel spin(wheel speed is jumping)

From 4300-5500 you are running rich.

Over 5500rpm is just a waste with the stock turbo

You may want to try lowering the boost to ~21psi peak and add some timing. You should have done a maf cal with the E85 blend to begin with. The log does not look "lean" as you described. The lower the number on AFR the more rich you are running.

[OCspeed]

Originally Posted by tornado842 You are running "lean" from 3800-4200. This may be due to the wheel spin(wheel speed is jumping) From 4300-5500 you are running rich. Over 5500rpm is just a waste with the stock turbo You may want to try lowering the boost to ~21psi peak and add some timing. You should have done a maf cal with the E85 blend to begin with. The log does not look "lean" as you described. The lower the number on AFR the more rich you are running.

You're right, I do recall getting wheel spin in that log

starting around 5500rpm the AFR goes to low 12's though. Right now I have the boost set to peak at 21 and taper to 18 toward redline.

[Sergeant_M]

Question: Did you fill up your tank when you did this? Reason I ask is that the tank in the GenPu is 16 gallons. If you filled up the tank 5 of e85 and 5 of 91 Oct, you are not actually at 50/50 mix which could be why your fuel scalars are off. If I were going to start running e85, I would fill the tank with 8 gallons of e85 and then fill the rest with 91; After that you can fill with your exact ratio.

You should also do a MAF Cal and see how far off your LTFTs are.

Are you still running your meth injection as well?

[MSP6]

Originally Posted by tornado842 Over 5500rpm is just a waste with the stock turbo

Not on corn its not.



Also, the variation in how much you put into your tank, the exact FS # you used, your maf cal and the actual % of E from the pump (it can legally be anywhere from E70 to E85)

Run half a tank, do a maf cal. Always get your E from the same station if possible.

Profit

[ztnedman1]

Have you adjusted your tables in atr to above 2.0 load?

[phate]

Originally Posted by tornado842 You are running "lean" from 3800-4200. This may be due to the wheel spin(wheel speed is jumping)

Yep, it's wheel spin. If you graph RPM and Vehicle Speed over time, you can easily see it.

Originally Posted by OCspeed You're right, I do recall getting wheel spin in that log starting around 5500rpm the AFR goes to low 12's though. Right now I have the boost set to peak at 21 and taper to 18 toward redline.

It looks like your base WGDC targets are pretty high, and your comps are very aggressive. I would at least knock the base WGDC down so it doesn't over boost like it is, then work that and the comps to get smooth operation.

Originally Posted by ztnedman1 Have you adjusted your tables in atr to above 2.0 load?

Although that is a good idea, it won't affect the tune if you run past the last load line. It just uses the last load line's targets.

[OCspeed]

Originally Posted by Sergeant_M Question: Did you fill up your tank when you did this? Reason I ask is that the tank in the GenPu is 16 gallons. If you filled up the tank 5 of e85 and 5 of 91 Oct, you are not actually at 50/50 mix which could be why your fuel scalars are off. If I were going to start running e85, I would fill the tank with 8 gallons of e85 and then fill the rest with 91; After that you can fill with your exact ratio. You should also do a MAF Cal and see how far off your LTFTs are. Are you still running your meth injection as well?

I filled up with the car reading out zero miles left on the dash. Being that I didnt exactly know how much was left in the tank, I just did the 5 gallons of e85 to 5 gallons of 91 to get started and then from there on I would repeat

Currently the meth injection is off

Originally Posted by ztnedman1 Have you adjusted your tables in atr to above 2.0 load?

Yes I have

Originally Posted by phate Yep, it's wheel spin. If you graph RPM and Vehicle Speed over time, you can easily see it. It looks like your base WGDC targets are pretty high, and your comps are very aggressive. I would at least knock the base WGDC down so it doesn't over boost like it is, then work that and the comps to get smooth operation Although that is a good idea, it won't affect the tune if you run past the last load line. It just uses the last load line's targets.

Thanks for all your input. I understand you're the E85 guru so i'm just trying to soak up as much knowledge as possible haha

[ztnedman1]

Originally Posted by phate Although that is a good idea, it won't affect the tune if you run past the last load line. It just uses the last load line's targets.

I mentioned it because it solved my lean issue. Thread below says It is 2.5 load not 2.0 though. Appeared for me last year when the temps dropped, 23psi, E30 and started getting above 2.5 load.
I may be misremembering the exact fix I did but I know I used this thread.

Link to thread
AFR targets at loads higher than 2.50 ATR/ATP fix

[OCspeed]

Originally Posted by ztnedman1 I mentioned it because it solved my lean issue. Thread below says It is 2.5 load not 2.0 though. Appeared for me last year when the temps dropped, 23psi, E30 and started getting above 2.5 load. I may be misremembering the exact fix I did but I know I used this thread. Link to thread AFR targets at loads higher than 2.50 ATR/ATP fix

I'll take a look at it and make necessary changes and see if it helps. Thanks!

[phate]

Originally Posted by ztnedman1 I mentioned it because it solved my lean issue. Thread below says It is 2.5 load not 2.0 though. Appeared for me last year when the temps dropped, 23psi, E30 and started getting above 2.5 load. I may be misremembering the exact fix I did but I know I used this thread. Link to thread AFR targets at loads higher than 2.50 ATR/ATP fix

Yeah, 2.5 with 2nd gens only, I believe. We've seen over 3.0 load in the 1st gens without issue. Edit: not solely 2nd gens.

But it's not a matter of overrunning you're last load line, regardless.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by OCspeed I recently decided to go with a 50/50 E85/91oct mix to get the most out of the car. For my first fill up, I went 5 gallons of e85 to 5 gallons of 91 oct. I edited my FSG and fuel scalars according to Phate's fuel mix cheat sheet, and I am currently targeting 11.6 AFR's.. My problem is that when I tried my first run at WOT to log, I right away experience practically out of control AFR's hitting low 10's to high 12's randomly Is there something I am missing that I need to change in order to control my AFR's better, or do I simply need to do a OL MAF cal to get everything in order and closer to hitting my 11.6 AFR target?

Wasn't aware Phate had a fuel mix cheat sheet. Link? I'd like to see what he did differently/better.

You didn't, by chance, MAFCAL with the WMI on originally did you? That could be a problem.

Also 12 AFR is safe, even with a bunch of timing. Ideally, you should be running around 11.5 to 11.75 just for saftey

Originally Posted by tornado842 Over 5500rpm is just a waste with the stock turbo

High mixes of corn (=> 5050) = all the wastegate all the time for great justice. Make that air pump do work.

[OCspeed]

Originally Posted by Enki Wasn't aware Phate had a fuel mix cheat sheet. Link? I'd like to see what he did differently/better. You didn't, by chance, MAFCAL with the WMI on originally did you? That could be a problem. Also 12 AFR is safe, even with a bunch of timing. Ideally, you should be running around 11.5 to 11.75 just for saftey

Wow i'm an idiot. I used ENKI'S fuel mix cheat sheet to adjust scalars and what not, then used Phate's ignition tables for rough ballpark figures to set my timing conservative for now. My apologies. Reading all this info and threads these past 2 weeks really has me mixing up the guru's

To answer your question, my original MAF cal is done with WMI on. With it off, I thought I could just make the appropriate changes to the MAF cal when I started my mix?

[Enki]

I'm not a guru, just capable with spreadsheets. And here I was hoping to learn something new...

Did you MAFCAL with the WMI enabled originally? If so that is likely your lean issue right there.

[OCspeed]

Originally Posted by Enki I'm not a guru, just capable with spreadsheets. And here I was hoping to learn something new... Did you MAFCAL with the WMI enabled originally? If so that is likely your lean issue right there.

Yes I did, my original MAF cal is done with WMI on, but I thought I could make the appropriate changes to the MAF accordingly with the WMI off when I started my mix?

[Enki]

Yes. If you're using WMI specifically for supplemental intercooling, you shouldn't tune/MAFCAL with it enabled. Dial your targets in, and let it go rich with it enabled.

[OCspeed]

Originally Posted by Enki Yes. If you're using WMI specifically for supplemental intercooling, you shouldn't tune/MAFCAL with it enabled. Dial your targets in, and let it go rich with it enabled.

Yes I was only using the WMI for cooling BAT's. So the right way to go about this is to leave it off, and continue with a regular MAF cal, and when targets are dialed in, I can turn the WMI back on? (When it was on, the WMI was spraying 100% meth btw)

Edit: As you know, southern california and tuscon is pretty toasty year round lol

[Enki]

Correct.

[OCspeed]

Originally Posted by Enki Correct.

Thank you sir (and to everyone else that made suggestions and helped), and happy thanksgiving

I will update when I can

[MSP6]

Originally Posted by Enki High mixes of corn (=> 5050) = all the wastegate all the time for great justice.

Bahaha God damn right 100% WGDC eeeeeerrryyywhere

[OCspeed]

A little update!

Went out tonight to get clean 4th gear logs on a nice smooth road before the rain hits southern California for a day or two

MAF still needs work due to fluctuating AFR's still (still targeting 11.6 AFR)

For anyone that's interested Ive attached the 2 logs I did

Pretty happy how things are going so far. Car seems to be consistent power rise too. A lot of work and fine tuning is ahead of me, but i'm excited to see how far I can push it (before reaching MBT that is )

[chaser27]

Originally Posted by OCspeed A little update! Went out tonight to get clean 4th gear logs on a nice smooth road before the rain hits southern California for a day or two MAF still needs work due to fluctuating AFR's still (still targeting 11.6 AFR) For anyone that's interested Ive attached the 2 logs I did Pretty happy how things are going so far. Car seems to be consistent power rise too. A lot of work and fine tuning is ahead of me, but i'm excited to see how far I can push it (before reaching MBT that is )

If you don't mind, I'll take a look at your MAF cal for you. I've seen AFR's jump around like that when the transition from lower g/s to higher g/s is off target and rough. I've got a little tool I've been working on that can spit you out a smooth curve. PM me for my e-mail if you're interested.

[Enki]

He just needs to go back to a base calibration for his intake and redo it from there.

[chaser27]

Originally Posted by Enki He just needs to go back to a base calibration for his intake and redo it from there.

That's how he got here in the first place though. He doesn't appear to be smoothing the transitions. After just a few revisions, you can have your curve all fucked up looking like a stepwise function. I just want to try this out and see how much of a difference it makes

[OCspeed]

Just to clear up some things, the two 4th gear logs attached along with the VD is the same MAF curve and map that was flashed on the car in the original OP. I didn't make any changes due to wheelspin, and the road I logged on in the OP wasn't totally smooth and flat.

As of last night, provided with the two 4th gear logs, I made all the changes to the MAF accordingly, and flashed the new map this morning

Originally Posted by chaser27 If you don't mind, I'll take a look at your MAF cal for you. I've seen AFR's jump around like that when the transition from lower g/s to higher g/s is off target and rough. I've got a little tool I've been working on that can spit you out a smooth curve. PM me for my e-mail if you're interested.

Thank you for the offer! Should we wait and see how the new MAF curve looks and then take it from there if its still jumping around? I don't have a problem sending it to you

[chaser27]

Originally Posted by OCspeed Just to clear up some things, the two 4th gear logs attached along with the VD is the same MAF curve and map that was flashed on the car in the original OP. I didn't make any changes due to wheelspin, and the road I logged on in the OP wasn't totally smooth and flat. As of last night, provided with the two 4th gear logs, I made all the changes to the MAF accordingly, and flashed the new map this morning Thank you for the offer! Should we wait and see how the new MAF curve looks and then take it from there if its still jumping around? I don't have a problem sending it to you

Doesn't matter to me. It'll take me all of two minutes to smooth it out.

[OCspeed]

Originally Posted by chaser27 Doesn't matter to me. It'll take me all of two minutes to smooth it out.

pm sent

[chaser27]

I made an assumption that your current MAF cal had LTFT's within an acceptable range, so I fit a curve in there that should keep them roughly the same. Now in OL, I took the liberty of adjusting up a little bit based on your log. Your MAF cal was showing ~240 g/s at 4.42 volts and I calculated it should be closer to 265 g/s given your BAT's, elevation of Anaheim, etc.

I don't populate anything under 1.5 g/s since you won't be down there anyway, but here ya go.

0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1.506933632	1.698986432	1.85891375	2.094358822	2.356367222	2.646239942	2.965290262	3.31484375	3.696238262	4.110823942	4.559963222	5.045030822	5.56741375	5.984530432	6.575589632	7.207841792	7.88272	8.601669632	9.366148352	10.17762611	11.03758515	11.94752	12.90893747	13.92335667	14.71987422	15.83073875	16.9988459	18.22576086	19.5130611	20.86233638	22.27518875	23.75323254	25.29809438	26.91141318	28.16732	29.90441907	31.71454547	33.59938419	35.56063251	37.6	39.71920851	41.91999219	44.20409747	46.57328307	49.02932	50.92941618	53.54174138	56.24585154	59.04356375	61.93670738	64.9271241	68.01666786	71.2072049	74.50061375	77.89878522	81.40362242	84.10340147	87.79952	91.60760115	95.52959411	99.56746035	103.7231736	107.99872	112.3960978	116.9173176	121.5644024	125.1335388	130.0057918	135.0095362	140.1468409	145.4197873	150.8304688	156.3809913	162.0734729	167.9100442	173.8928478	180.0240388	184.7211144	191.1172056	197.6676738	204.37472	211.2405576	218.2674124	225.4575221	232.8131372	240.33652	248.0299455	255.8957007	261.9094912	270.0823638	278.4339189	286.9664899	295.6824221	304.5840734	313.6738138	322.9540255	332.4271034	342.0954542	349.47632	359.4922271	369.7100895	380.1323602	390.7615045	401.6

For reference, I'm attaching a comparison of your old curve vs. new one. The blue line is the percent difference between the two. You'll notice I tried to keep it roughly the same at lower airflows and then tapered to where it should be in OL. If you look at your old curve (The red) you can see why your ECU has trouble with your AFR. The MAF curve makes it think you are losing airflow as the MAF voltage goes up in places. This happens if you don't take the time to smooth the transitions when you do MAF cals.

Looking forward to seeing the results.

[OCspeed]

Again, thank you. I appreciate all the info that has been shared on this thread

I'll get back to this thread with an update within the next couple days

[chaser27]

Any updates?

[OCspeed]

Originally Posted by chaser27 Any updates?

Yessir, just came back from doing a couple logs.

The AFR's seemed to smooth out and looks pretty close to being dialed in.

One of the logs I noticed I almost hit 400tq ...probably gonna have to back down the
timing in that area

[Enki]

Try to keep the torque under 350 1.01 sm 3 if you don't want to build anytime soon.

[OCspeed]

Originally Posted by Enki Try to keep the torque under 350 1.01 sm 3 if you don't want to build anytime soon.

Definitely not planning on building anytime soon. I backed it down by a degree in the 3500 to

4000 rpm area. Hopefully that will help some. I guess i'll just keep backing down the low end

timing from 3000 to 4000 until i'm safely under 350 or so.

Edit: Backed it down .5 of a degree @ 3000 rpm and 1.5 degrees from 3500 to 4000. Don't want to take a risk

[Enki]

Couple of things:

1. It should be safe to remove the following PIDs from your log settings:
a. Closed Loop (?)
b. Inj. Pulse Width (ms)
c. MAP Voltage (V)

2. Pull a degree from 3500 and 4k; you're awful close to MBT at the very least, I'm sure.

3. It's *possible* that you have two instances of minor wheelspin at 3400 RPM and again between 3800 and 4400.

Was the road you took this log on flat and in good condition? No sand/ice/water/etc?

Also you're real close to 4.5 volts; a larger intake can actually free up some breathing room on the top end, though you are pushing good numbers already (and making over 17 PSI @ 6300 RPM) so you may be satisfied with where the car is at currently and decide you don't need a larger intake (which ultimately could cut the life expectancy on your baby K).

Otherwise it looks pretty good.

[OCspeed]

Originally Posted by Enki Couple of things: 1. It should be safe to remove the following PIDs from your log settings: a. Closed Loop (?) b. Inj. Pulse Width (ms) c. MAP Voltage (V) 2. Pull a degree from 3500 and 4k; you're awful close to MBT at the very least, I'm sure. 3. It's *possible* that you have two instances of minor wheelspin at 3400 RPM and again between 3800 and 4400. Was the road you took this log on flat and in good condition? No sand/ice/water/etc? Also you're real close to 4.5 volts; a larger intake can actually free up some breathing room on the top end, though you are pushing good numbers already (and making over 17 PSI @ 6300 RPM) so you may be satisfied with where the car is at currently and decide you don't need a larger intake (which ultimately could cut the life expectancy on your baby K). Otherwise it looks pretty good.

Just to be on the safe side, I pulled 1.5 degrees from 3500 to 4000. I also pulled .5 of a degree for the 3000 column.

The road I logged on, to my knowledge, is perfectly flat and it was dry. The air temp was about 58F so maybe the ground was just cold combined with lukewarm front tires making it spin?

Not planning on getting a bigger intake at the moment, but maybe down the road in the near future knowing I can free up some breathing room for the stock snail I will pick one up

I also added a degree of timing from 4500 and on to see if I can net some more hp up there. My timing from 4500 and on doesn't seem too aggressive unless you think otherwise?

[chaser27]

Originally Posted by OCspeed I also added a degree of timing from 4500 and on to see if I can net some more hp up there. My timing from 4500 and on doesn't seem too aggressive unless you think otherwise?

IMO, before you try to get HP out of timing in your upper RPMs. I'd get it from airflow. You are leaving some on the table beginning at 5K. You drop from 21 psi to 19.5 and then 17.5. I'm posting up a pic of where you fall on a compressor map and you can see where my mouse is, you drop pretty heavily. At that point you are already pushing the limits of the K04 airflow wise, so you might as well see what it'll hold. You have the turbine speed you need, just need to hold it. With the K04, you don't really need to help the boost fall. It'll do it on it's own.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of the 20psi at 3k, you are pushing the surge limit and I typically target closer to 18, but that is your call there.

[MazdaBoy2.3]

Id agree. Looks like wheel spin on the red log.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by OCspeed Just to be on the safe side, I pulled 1.5 degrees from 3500 to 4000. I also pulled .5 of a degree for the 3000 column.

What is your timing at 3k? hard to say from the log.

Originally Posted by OCspeed I also added a degree of timing from 4500 and on to see if I can net some more hp up there. My timing from 4500 and on doesn't seem too aggressive unless you think otherwise?

MBT is usually around 20 ish degrees @6k in my experience. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. You're actually already making more power than I ever did at 6k, with less timing, probably due to your higher boost levels. If your MAFCAL is on point, you can probably bump airflow to 300 ish g/s or so, which is likely to happen with nothing other than timing.

Originally Posted by chaser27 IMO, before you try to get HP out of timing in your upper RPMs. I'd get it from airflow.

I humbly disagree. He's already pushing that turbo pretty hard making 17 PSI over 6k, which is probably going to reduce its usable life a bit as it is (unless the Pu turbos have upgraded shafts and bearings).

Originally Posted by chaser27 Also, I'm not a huge fan of the 20psi at 3k, you are pushing the surge limit and I typically target closer to 18, but that is your call there.

I agree, I had mine set to 18 @ 3k then went full beans from there.

Originally Posted by MazdaBoy2.3 Id agree. Looks like wheel spin on the red log.

Yeah, looking at the pattern of MPH in the logs, something is certainly up. Could be a red herring though too.

[chaser27]

Originally Posted by Enki I humbly disagree. He's already pushing that turbo pretty hard making 17 PSI over 6k, which is probably going to reduce its usable life a bit as it is (unless the Pu turbos have upgraded shafts and bearings).

I was only recommending that due to how sharply it falls off at the end. It drops down to 17.5 at 5500 IIRC and then 17.5 again at 6k. If he can maintain boost that high in the rpm, he can slow down how fast it tapers, maintain shaft speed and get more hp up top. He's already pushing his turbo hard, I'm not arguing that, but it's almost as if he's "turning it off" at 4500-5500, letting the turbo coast down and then pushing for power at 6k. If he ups boost a bit at 5k and 5500, he should be able to maintain shaft speed a little longer and then won't have to push as hard at 6k+... I hope I'm making sense. I tend to ramble

[Enki]

I doubt the shaft speed is actually falling. I'm certain it just peaks at 5k and then doesn't continue to accelerate to make up the difference past that point.

In order to safely make more boost past 5k, hes going to need a bigger turbo.