ATP 3071r swap how to , lenny gets BT fever too

[Dano]

hey I just noticed that you're over 400 HP on the AP...congrats!

I guess I just wasn't paying attention.

yes the curve was better UC but that first HUGE dip in PSI killed the overall HP numbers.

[rigor]

that is why i don't give 2 shits about #s, they change with the wind

i put in the big turbo and piping , just like you would put in bigger gas mains for future development of housing,

in case i want more it's their and will be supported... that's the way i roll..
not saying im going to have the biggest baddest, cause i don't care.

i just love sawing off 40 50 k cars with the shit box!!

if we had a 1/4 mile here local, that is were id live, and wouldn't mess with this car at all

but i drive it daily, and it is a hoot for that!
i would drag it, but it would be slow cause of driver error, due to the track being 4.5 hrs away, and no practice..

and who ever thinks draging a fwd car is easy, is either blessed by the car gods, or full of shit!
it takes skills to race a fwd!

good luck to lenny in his 1/4 mile adventures!! i want to see 11s


[QUOTE=lenny127;656664]this is why god created meth niggah..... if my lil ko4 can take 22 psi on meth that 2871 will be bangin' at them pressures also lol

no that is why they created more than one turbo haha

[bmylez]

Oh damn, I didn't realize Camas Valley was in OR. I figured Camas Valley would be close to Camas, WA. Sucky that you live so far away from a drag strip. It's about a 50 mile drive for me (San Antonio is VERY spread out), so I'll probably go there a few times and make a fool of myself, heh.

[rigor]

they have an 1/8 mile close, like 40-50 miles but who in their right mind would go through the trouble, to put up a track and not make it a 1/4 mile?
is beyond me

[Dano]

If Memphis were to reopen this spring I still have a 2.5 hour drive to reach a 1/4 mile track...if not Dallas is the nearest and I aint driving 5 hrs to blow up my car and have no way home LOL...

Originally Posted by rigor they have an 1/8 mile close, like 40-50 miles but who in their right mind would go through the trouble, to put up a track and not make it a 1/4 mile? is beyond me

insurance....very big difference in insuring a 1/8 mile track and a 1/4 mile track...at least that's what I hear
we have an 1/8 mile track about 1.5 hours away but in a FWD car esp, it would be a waste of time...no time to make up for the slow launches LOL

[rigor]

and to trailer is big dollars

and on the insurance, but a lot of people would go! 1/8 i won't bother

[Dano]

werd

so those who live close to a track...don't take it for granted hahah

[rodrigo]

dano....do u have any logs of your car finally tuned properly so i can see what a good log is supposed to look like? also in looking at your logs i notice the time it takes to spool....normal I guess, why does mine spool so much quicker? cuz of mbc? just trying to learn every detail i see different thats all

[Dano]

yes MBC is waaaaaay faster to spool and was dangerous IMO. Those dyno logs were also on the OEM BC and the EBC is faster.

Here are some logs from this week where I am fine tuning my Load Dynamics tables to control my load targets. They are fairly representative of what power I am making now.

I don't quite have my spool where I want it but I am very close

The "L" logs are a 21PSI tune and the "U" logs I dialed it back to 20PSI. The turbo will spool faster I just don't want 20PSI at 3-3.5K LOL

yellow indicates under load target
Red over target
green target

In the "U" log my load error is in the right margin and is what I was using to fine tune my LD table values.

[bmylez]

Looks like you guys typically run pretty low timing? I know the Focus guys are running 16* through most of the rev range.

[Dano]

yes we do...and I guess you mean the Focus has total advance of 16*

I can get 14* with meth mabye 15* total but the meat of the curve can't handle much more than 8-9* advance in my setup.

I just started messing around with advance two weeks ago now...alot of info on that subject here

OFFICIAL: New ATR Tuning Thread

if you look in my "U" map you can see I have ~1.5* more advance than the "L" map.

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 yes MBC is waaaaaay faster to spool and was dangerous IMO. Those dyno logs were also on the OEM BC and the EBC is faster. Here are some logs from this week where I am fine tuning my Load Dynamics tables to control my load targets. They are fairly representative of what power I am making now. I don't quite have my spool where I want it but I am very close The "L" logs are a 21PSI tune and the "U" logs I dialed it back to 20PSI. The turbo will spool faster I just don't want 20PSI at 3-3.5K LOL yellow indicates under load target Red over target green target In the "U" log my load error is in the right margin and is what I was using to fine tune my LD table values.

thank you dano for posting that, so you are basically hitting your boost target around 4200 and how will you change this to come closer to what I assume is the standard 3800? by fucking with the wgdc?

i still havent switched the mbc for ebc.... its raining every day until tue-wed so logging will be impossible since christian asked me for 2nd and 3rd gear logs..... spinning will fuck all the data up.

as far as the mbc spooling up too quick and being unsafe......let me check something in your logs real quick....


ok i checked look at your load on the 21psi log at 3300 rpm.... 213 vs mine at the same rpm 2.1 ........ seems to me that I can take advantage of quick spool and control load through timing and the fact that my turbo is a hair larger and not prone to generate your "dangerous" loads down low....???? not stating fact here, just trying to understand what you and the others are doing and if there are different ways perhaps to reach the same goal through mbc (i know the ebc will be taken care of by xtian so no harm in learning how I could make an mbc work as well)

[driver311]

Lenny here are some logs of my car at 17-18psi. This is my lowest timing map on pump gas. Look at the gs vs. Dano's car for comparison.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by lenny127 thank you dano for posting that, so you are basically hitting your boost target around 4200 and how will you change this to come closer to what I assume is the standard 3800? by fucking with the wgdc? This will actually be done with Load Dynamics and TRL values. Right now I have lowered my TRL to make it easier for the system to achieve its load targets so I can fine tune my LD table. LD actually multiplies your WGDC table by the value that corresponds to the load error [over or under]. So say the ECU is calculating it needs 80% DC to reach its load target. Well it looks at current load and determines its under target by .19 so it looks up the value in the LD tables and adds that much WGDC until load target is reached. This continues until the load error = 0 and the system reaches target. When I get my LD table finalized my load/boost should come on sooner and yes I want full spool 20-21PSI by 3.8-4Kish and 19PSI by 3K, sort of that reverse taper Zigo is always talking about... Currently when I have a load error of .08 the table isn't multiplying my WGDC values enough to account for the error and the load just kinda sits there even though there is enough WGDC to reach target. Before I was over shooting my load targets so I cut the Load Dyn tables down to almost nothing and am now slowly working my way back up. i still haven't switched the mbc for ebc.... its raining every day until tue-wed so logging will be impossible since christian asked me for 2nd and 3rd gear logs..... spinning will fuck all the data up. Interesting that Christian would want logs in those gears. Most would want 4th gear logs which you could do in the rain...LOL BTW I think Christian is going to work with me on a Boost based tune as well and use the Boost Comp gear tables to try and limit boost per gear. At least I think that's the plan. If all works out we will have two base calibrations for MSF BT guys. I think the key thing is tuning the Boost Dynamics and Load Dynamics tables to account for the different spool characteristics the GT turbos have over the K04...should be fun. as far as the mbc spooling up too quick and being unsafe......let me check something in your logs real quick.... ok i checked look at your load on the 21psi log at 3300 rpm.... 213 vs mine at the same rpm 2.1 ........ seems to me that I can take advantage of quick spool and control load through timing and the fact that my turbo is a hair larger and not prone to generate your "dangerous" loads down low....???? not stating fact here, just trying to understand what you and the others are doing and if there are different ways perhaps to reach the same goal through mbc (i know the ebc will be taken care of by xtian so no harm in learning how I could make an mbc work as well) I think the 3071 spools about 200-300RPMs later than the 28 so you may not see those high load values at 3K like I was seeing. If I had it to do over I would pick a GT3071 for this very reason. The efficiency island on the 3071 is about 200-500RPM to the right or higher, so you get power a bit later but keep it longer than I will on my 28. This = better for our con rods. The only way to tell for you is to test the MBC at lower PSI and nail it at say 2.5-2.8K and see how fast load and boost comes on. Work your way up and see if you can reach your target PSI while not getting there too fast. Of course you can always control that with your foot and not nail it until 3K anyway. LOL

[Dano]

Originally Posted by driver311 Lenny here are some logs of my car at 17-18psi. This is my lowest timing map on pump gas. Look at the gs vs. Dano's car for comparison.

Those g/s numbers look good...I'd like to see MAF Vt to go along with those. is this on the 3.25" MAF?

[driver311]

No SU intake. Car really is mobbing. I monitored some 330-340gs the other night on 19.5psi. CAr is mobbing for sure. gonna hit the dyno soon. My tune is done and wanna see the finish product. The new atr updates fixed my timing issue. Like I said this is my lowest timing map. I have two more with 1 more degree each. Ill run this map for street and the high one on the track with race gas or meth if I get it.

Ps. On some of my other logs my maf v is around 4.5-4.7.

[Dano]

my g/s really seems to be caped off since my EM install....fuck...I may have to actually put my OEM mani back on to test.

[driver311]

We can always trade. LOL

[Dano]

hahah

just looked back at some more logs and I may just be imagining things...the SS may not be the issue.

I had logs with 315 g/s and now I see i was running 12.2 AFR instead of my now 11.9

I think that is the difference I was seeing....

[rodrigo]

dano the reason xtian wanted to see 2-3gear logs is just to make sure things are safe...not really tune. i will nonetheless provide him 3rd and 4th gear pulls but I cant in the rain....4th in the rain now is pure spin.... so 5th would be the next gear and in the rain me doing wot runs in 5th to redline would be insane..... so ill hold off until i get some dry time.

i just swapped the mbc for ebc.... super easy install , also i backed off the preload on the wga but i did like maybe 2 full turns off , i need to add maybe half to 1 revolution of the rod and it will be perfect. i really couldnt floor it in any gear tonight because of the rain but it did jump to 15psi (map calls for 16) so half turn preload and i think the wga will be set correctly... should have done it with the mbc but didnt have time.

anthony, your car def be mobbin' get that shit some stickies and show us what u can do!!

i might get lucky and control creep with the ebc....cross yo fingerz, .... i would like a nice solid 18psi map and maybe a 20psi one too.

we ll see, hopefully tomorrow i get to log...keep ya guys posted

[bmylez]

Sorry to go off topic but driver311 (Anthony, is it?), I did some searches of threads you started and didn't see anything about drag racing.

What power were you making with the K04 to hit a 12.5? Sounds like you would need drag radials to do that. I'm pumped that you did that on a K04.

Lenny, I agree that you should not do WOT logs in 5th...in the rain, hahaha. That is unless you have a death wish. I find it funny that it's raining so much in LA. Good luck to ya.

[Dano]

Anthony, your g/s numbers make me sick and you suck! I think you are cheating and have scaled your MAF up...LOL

Lenny, I think the sweet spot on the WGA is 12-13 PSI. If you are down to 11 PSI on your WGA you will need to run higher WGDC so I think that is to low. 14 PSI and it is maxed which will cause some occiliations as the EBC tries to modulate boost and the spring is maxed. just pull the electric connector off the EBC and get some WOT logs to dial in your spring pressure.

One thing about WGA setups I have read is that the higher PSI you run on spring pressure the harder it is for any EBC to control boost or perhaps a more accurate statement would be that you need to control the last 1/3 or so of boost with the EBC. You don't want to run 18PSI spring pressure to get a 20PSI tune.

One thing for sure, you need to settle on the preload before Christian gets too deep in the tune as it will change your WGDC and maybe Boost Dynamics table setups.

I looked back at my WGA tests and mine is cracking right at 12 PSI, I may try to give it 1 more turn today and get it to 13.

Attached are my WGA only logs for your reference.

oh and I wasn't thinking about you logging in the actual rain...sometimes here when the rain goes away for an hour or so the freeways dry up fast and are still damp and I can get 4th gear logs without spin. WTF is up with all the rain in SoCal this fall, El Nino? Actually this is an El nino year LOL.

[driver311]

Porting the intake manifold really helped. Im hitting the same gs I was seeing at 19psi now at 17psi. Send me your manifold and Ill dial it in. Its fairly simple but Im more than happy to do it for you. I just need mani and gasket.

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 Anthony, your g/s numbers make me sick and you suck! I think you are cheating and have scaled your MAF up...LOL Lenny, I think the sweet spot on the WGA is 12-13 PSI. If you are down to 11 PSI on your WGA you will need to run higher WGDC so I think that is to low. 14 PSI and it is maxed which will cause some occiliations as the EBC tries to modulate boost and the spring is maxed. just pull the electric connector off the EBC and get some WOT logs to dial in your spring pressure. One thing about WGA setups I have read is that the higher PSI you run on spring pressure the harder it is for any EBC to control boost or perhaps a more accurate statement would be that you need to control the last 1/3 or so of boost with the EBC. You don't want to run 18PSI spring pressure to get a 20PSI tune. One thing for sure, you need to settle on the preload before Christian gets too deep in the tune as it will change your WGDC and maybe Boost Dynamics table setups. I looked back at my WGA tests and mine is cracking right at 12 PSI, I may try to give it 1 more turn today and get it to 13. Attached are my WGA only logs for your reference. oh and I wasn't thinking about you logging in the actual rain...sometimes here when the rain goes away for an hour or so the freeways dry up fast and are still damp and I can get 4th gear logs without spin. WTF is up with all the rain in SoCal this fall, El Nino? Actually this is an El nino year LOL.

i am actually lucky cuz christian zerod out my wgdc to begin, so basically i can run it connected and all i should get is spring pressure..... he did this because he likes to start off safe and makes sense to me.

that logged you showed looks like a 12psi wga with about 3psi of creep by redline.... i am going to see how mine looks, i am having a lil discrepancy between the dh/ap boost readings and the elctronic boost gauge...god damn prosports do suck balls, the mechanical one read low and this one reads high wtf.

anyways ill see if i can do some wot half pulls just to establish spring pressure

p.s. rain is ridiculous it will rain all the way through wednesday...idk wtf is going on

[Dano]

Originally Posted by driver311 Porting the intake manifold really helped. Im hitting the same gs I was seeing at 19psi now at 17psi. Send me your manifold and Ill dial it in. Its fairly simple but Im more than happy to do it for you. I just need mani and gasket.

That and removing the VTCS

I want to wait for leen to make his IM so I'll just have to not look at ur logs for now. LOL.


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[bmylez]

Ill Niño.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by lenny127 i am actually lucky cuz christian zerod out my wgdc to begin, so basically i can run it connected and all i should get is spring pressure..... he did this because he likes to start off safe and makes sense to me. that logged you showed looks like a 12psi wga with about 3psi of creep by redline.... i am going to see how mine looks, i am having a lil discrepancy between the dh/ap boost readings and the elctronic boost gauge...god damn prosports do suck balls, the mechanical one read low and this one reads high wtf. anyways ill see if i can do some wot half pulls just to establish spring pressure p.s. rain is ridiculous it will rain all the way through wednesday...idk wtf is going on

O I C.

The "creep" you see in a WGA only log is much worse than any you MIGHT get with the EBC

Again I have NO creep whatsoever on my EBC and IIRC only saw 1PSI on my MBC


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[rodrigo]

ok i logged one successful log int he rain..... 4th gear pull found enough road with no standing water to be able to get this one. I thought my wgdc was at zero but looks like its in the teens.....

here's the log, looks like it jumps to about high 12s to low 13 as is.... but idk if thats with the help of the wga now since i am not zerod out....

what u think???

datalog6.csv


should have disconnected the solenoid god damnit!!!

as u can see it be creepin' , should i leave it as is or go out and disconnect the solenoid to get 100% spring pressure reading?


also i think he must have tweaked the fuel pressure cuz this is the first time i see above 1800 on every cell lol

[driver311]

Creepin just like mine was till I opened up the hole. I think you guys are gonna waste your time until you get some control. I tried to tell you LOL

[rodrigo]

if i was going for low boost yea, but im just playing along until we get to the 20psi part lol....with the ebc i should be able to control creep of 1psi pretty easily i think.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by lenny127 I thought my wgdc was at zero but looks like its in the teens..... here's the log, looks like it jumps to about high 12s to low 13 as is.... but idk if thats with the help of the wga now since i am not zerod out.... what u think??? Attachment 20409

I did a lot of experimenting with the WGDC table a long time ago.

My opinion, take it for what it is worth, is this:
I believe the WGDC table is not a direct reading of what the Actual WGDC will do.
It is more like a limiter of how much the ECU can use the WGDC to achieve targets set in the other tables.
The ECU tries to target load (or boost now if the Boost toggle is ON) and varies the WGDC to do this, the WGDC table serves as a limit on the ECU's ability to do this.
It is not a direct reading either, there appears to be a formula involved.

From my experimentation I found that a formula of:
Actual Max WGDC allowed = (2 x WGDC Table value) + 20
To be close to accurate in all situations.
Actually it was coldpack who figured out the formula from my data.
ie
With 0 in the table, the max actual WGDC the ECU can use will be close to 20
With 40 in the table, the max actual WGDC the ECU can use will be close to 100 (whether it goes this high is dependent on the values in the load tables)

This formula applies in your log to.
2 x 0 + 20 = 20
Your Max WGDC shown in the log is 19.99

It will be possible to lower that Actual WGDC to zero, by lowering the requested load in the appropriate parts of the load tables being used.

In your log the actual WGDC is zero in parts (where your foot is not requesting much boost, and as high as 20 in other parts, that means that in the areas where actual WGDC is greater than zero, the ECU had to use the WGDC (limited to 20) to try achieve the load/boost being requested from the other tables by your right foot.

This is using OEM ECU logic. I think the WGDC logic maybe different with the boost toggle "ON" but I havent enough experimentation or hard evidence either way yet.

Hope that makes sense.
If not ask away.

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 One thing about WGA setups I have read is that the higher PSI you run on spring pressure the harder it is for any EBC to control boost or perhaps a more accurate statement would be that you need to control the last 1/3 or so of boost with the EBC. You don't want to run 18PSI spring pressure to get a 20PSI tune. One thing for sure, you need to settle on the preload before Christian gets too deep in the tune as it will change your WGDC and maybe Boost Dynamics table setups. I looked back at my WGA tests and mine is cracking right at 12 PSI, I may try to give it 1 more turn today and get it to 13.

one way a tuner looked at it for me was, that with a higher preload, you get less tuning resolution.

when I get the 3071 in, I'll likely run it at 14 - 15 psi preload for a easy 18psi street tune and a 20psi hot map.

this is also why I'd want a top mount setup, so that I can adjust my WGA...but reading this thread, it's hopeful that my 3071 is ported...I still wonder if I should weld it shut and go EWG.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Of course if all you want to do is see the "spring pressure" just unplug the solenoid power, would be easier than all the table messing......leave the tables for Xtian.

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by FreeFlyFreak Of course if all you want to do is see the "spring pressure" just unplug the solenoid power, would be easier than all the table messing......leave the tables for Xtian.

did that too before I figured I could zero out the table.

[rodrigo]

ok, i couldnt wait so i went out with the solenoid disconnected. and i think i got my answer

datalog4.csv

datalog5.csv


looks like my spring pressure is about 12.5 -12.75 psi..... these two logs are basically wot a hair before 3000 rpm and seems to me that 12.5-12.75 is the boost the turbo goes to before creep begins doing its thang.

so im good with this spring pressure for now.... I just have to wait for the weather to let me do some 3rd gear 4th gear and maybe 5th gear logs for xtian so we can start dialing in the tune. I didnt run the rpm to redline but i think spring pressure will yield about 18-19psi creep so if i understand shit correctly this will probably be the lowest perfectly tunable boost i will be able to run unless I want to port it.

im good to go for logging now.....cmon rain!!!

[bmylez]

So you said the main reason you don't want to port the IWG is that you don't want to take the turbo off, right? The machine work itself is quick and painless, I would think. At least things are coming along nicely...looks like you're well on your way to 350+

[Dano]

yes Lenny the only way to know for sure what your spring pressure is, is to unplug the EBC's electrical connection.

The "creep" you are seeing is do to the low boost you are targeting so more pressure has to try and escape through the WG port. For spring testing don't worry about that.

When you get up to 18-20PSI tune I doubt you will have much if any creep but I don't have a 3071. My 28 has none.

IIRC, Driver was using the old version ATP housing so he needed to port

Lenny on spring pressure you shouldn't spin the tires in 4th. Just start out at like 2500 and nail it to see where your boost levels off at...it will then begin to creep upwards. That first number is what your spring pressure is.

@ Fobio...you are exactly right about the boost tuning resolution.


Edit: Lenny just saw your new logs and they are MONEY!!!

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by bmylez So you said the main reason you don't want to port the IWG is that you don't want to take the turbo off, right? The machine work itself is quick and painless, I would think. At least things are coming along nicely...looks like you're well on your way to 350+

that is the ONLY reason I am not porting the IWG.... i am not going to take this turbo off, no matter what. porting the wg would take me 30 min max , I have the tools and more than enough experience porting cylinder heads when I used to run in a machine shop.

this might compromise xtians ability to set a 16psi base map for the guys looking for one, but at some point i have to do what is best for me, and from what I see i should have zero boost creep problems running a 20- 20.5 psi map and letting it at worst creep to 21-21.5psi if the ebc wasnt able to contain it...(which i doubt sin ce its way more tunable than the mbc)

so only thing preventing me moving forward right now is the weather.... when it clears up ill resume logging and 350+ here we go !!! 350+? i thought 350 was it lol

Originally Posted by Dano2010 yes Lenny the only way to know for sure what your spring pressure is, is to unplug the EBC's electrical connection. The "creep" you are seeing is do to the low boost you are targeting so more pressure has to try and escape through the WG port. For spring testing don't worry about that. When you get up to 18-20PSI tune I doubt you will have much if any creep but I don't have a 3071. My 28 has none. IIRC, Driver was using the old version ATP housing so he needed to port Lenny on spring pressure you shouldn't spin the tires in 4th. Just start out at like 2500 and nail it to see where your boost levels off at...it will then begin to creep upwards. That first number is what your spring pressure is. @ Fobio...you are exactly right about the boost tuning resolution. Edit: Lenny just saw your new logs and they are MONEY!!!

hahaha ya at last comment lol

they are right at 12.5 to 12.75 psi so im leaving it as is....this should work perfect and yeah it dont spin in 4th lol feels like a slug !!!! i need 20psi!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahahah

thanks for all your help, i am actually starting to understand it all.

[Dano]

yup...any more preload and you may get too much....

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by lenny127 this might compromise xtians ability to set a 16psi base map for the guys looking for one, but at some point i have to do what is best for me, and from what I see i should have zero boost creep problems running a 20- 20.5 psi map and letting it at worst creep to 21-21.5psi if the ebc wasnt able to contain it...(which i doubt sin ce its way more tunable than the mbc)

that's be pretty cool for xtian to make a 3071 base map...thanks for guinea pigging lenny!