Official Suspension Bars and Braces Thread

[some call me...Tim]

Thanks much for this info. Informative and concise.

Not necessarily the most sought after item in the list but thought I'd add that Corksport does make a skid plate for both Speed 3s. I believe completely identical to each other.

Corksport Mazdaspeed3 Skid Plate

[TiGraySpeed6]

You're welcome to use the pic to compare Steeda to RacingBeat! Not a problem!

And, THANK YOU for the effort & time you're putting into this, I hadn't realized this is one of the larger, if not the largest, category of parts available for the speeds.

[license2ill]

Same shape, design, and materials specs? lol, you know that's where they'll all start to diverge even if they are the same.

Whiteline's sway bar is solid, right? All the others are hollow and a couple at 32mm.

How do the attachment points get considered in that chart?

Wish these companies could be trusted to be accurate, and more forthcoming. It's not a big ask, but apparently "that's just part of modding" like that knucklehead poster above said. What a maroon.

[phate]

Originally Posted by license2ill How do the attachment points get considered in that chart?

They don't, but that bar stiffness % increase directly correlates to the same % increase in roll stiffness from the bar.

[Crarrs]

Originally Posted by license2ill Same shape, design, and materials specs? lol, you know that's where they'll all start to diverge even if they are the same. Whiteline's sway bar is solid, right? All the others are hollow and a couple at 32mm. How do the attachment points get considered in that chart? Wish these companies could be trusted to be accurate, and more forthcoming. It's not a big ask, but apparently "that's just part of modding" like that knucklehead poster above said. What a maroon.

Are you kidding me? All I did was ask you how you figured out what stiffness of rear sway bar you'd need to meet your needs. The ONLY reason you need to be splitting hairs over claims about one company's 32mm bar vs another's is if you know exactly what roll resistance numbers you're going to require to set your car up with a certain balance. Everything else is semantics.

All I've seen you do during your entire time here is ask a bunch of vague, open-ended questions (see above....) about general suspension design theories and practices, and then get frustrated when people tell you or imply that you need to do more research on the subject in general versus spoon-feeding you the exact best setup to put on your particular car right this moment. The "best" suspension is always going to depend on what you want to do with it, and what other components you've got feeding loads into it.

i.e. How much power do you have? [aka How much drive traction do you need?]
What type of track will you be running? [aka How much camber do you need to maintain in-corner momentum without sacrificing braking or drive grip?]
What springs are on the car? [aka How much are those contributing to your roll stiffness?]

Doing "research" doesn't just constitute asking everyone all kinds of questions. It means figuring out a bunch of this stuff yourself via reading books and taking measurements on your own car.

What a maroon.

[Inquisitive]

Although there is a general call for a standard, benchmark comparison of all products, perhaps at “phate’s testing centre” (just kidding), I am not sure (and this is pure speculation on my part) that @phate; would want to be in the distribution or manufacturing business when purchasing decision criteria includes looks, but this is the nature of the fickle market. Perhaps we can forgive the manufacturers for taking liberal licence in the choice of words when marketing their wares. Spin doctors might be cheaper than test centres, but why even bother if the results are not the sole criterion.

For me, I like the resourcefulness displayed by some members willing to dig through parts bins, pour over product catalogues or just purchase, test, resell what doesn’t work and tell us about it.

[zenit]

Originally Posted by aackthpt And you're right, 80% of commutes I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. But if I install a mega stiffness bar and come around a freeway overpass doing 60+, encounter a traffic jam requiring immediate near-maximal braking, and the car snap-oversteers I'd know it. And that type of traffic situation happens WAY more than I'd like.

Snap oversteer occurs when the rear is unloaded during a "steer" (aka body roll & turn) condition.
Braking to slow down for a traffic stop in a straight line that swaybar isn't doing anything. On top of that, I can tell you from personal experience that roll bias is HEAVILY mediated by the quality of tires. Put some real crappy or worn tires on even a stock setup and you'll have a spin happy car, in a turn.

Originally Posted by Crarrs Doing "research" doesn't just constitute asking everyone all kinds of questions. It means figuring out a bunch of this stuff yourself via reading books and taking measurements on your own car. What a maroon.

QFT

Originally Posted by Inquisitive Although there is a general call for a standard, benchmark comparison of all products, perhaps at “phate’s testing centre” (just kidding), I am not sure (and this is pure speculation on my part) that @phate; would want to be in the distribution or manufacturing business when purchasing decision criteria includes looks, but this is the nature of the fickle market.

Overall, yes. It is unfortunate that we have to testing ourselves, but we really have to cut the bullshit about manufacturer claims.

It is also the nature of the market, and the simple fact that we have choices is great. I would never want to produce part a for a variety of reasons, over emphasis on looks being one of them. But there is active development to the suspension knowledge base on msf, and it won't always align with the vendors...

[aackthpt]

Originally Posted by zenit Snap oversteer occurs when the rear is unloaded during a "steer" (aka body roll & turn) condition. Braking to slow down for a traffic stop in a straight line that swaybar isn't doing anything. On top of that, I can tell you from personal experience that roll bias is HEAVILY mediated by the quality of tires. Put some real crappy or worn tires on even a stock setup and you'll have a spin happy car, in a turn.

Agreed. I didn't mean stopping in a straight line, but I guess I wasn't clear. I mostly mean something like the curved overpass in a freeway interchange. There's one in particular that I take often, is great fun at 60+mph, and fairly often has a backup near its end that will require braking while still in the turn. Another that I tend to take at about 70mph and is similarly jam-prone near its exit. Shit happens on the road, unpredictable shit. I need a car that helps me deal with unpredictable shit, not one that gives me more shit.

That's a good point on the tires, too, I don't doubt it.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Inquisitive Although there is a general call for a standard, benchmark comparison of all products, perhaps at “phate’s testing centre” (just kidding),

Speak of the devil...

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...psx8g9lmpw.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...pstarm0xhz.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...psjaooghgw.jpg


Measuring real rates is the only reason I'm making these claims. Simple bars follow the torsion and bending equations very closely (see Puhn or Staniforth for the formulas, or an engineering textbook on mechanics of materials if you want to see how the equations are derived). The MS6 front bar (pictured) followed very closely because it has simple geometry that works well with the Puhn/Staniforth equations. Both the front and rear bars on an MS3 will follow the formulas closely for the same reason.

The MS6 rear bar does not, because the geometry does not lend itself well to the equations. No doubt an equation could be derived for the MS6 rear bar, but now that I have the real rates I see no reason to.

[B4RK3R]

Originally Posted by license2ill I was joking...but it would be nice to have some comparative info discussion to follow.

Originally Posted by Inquisitive Agreed - I'd like to hear about how effective these solutions are for eliminating torque steer, wheel hop and under-steer.

Although I can't speak for any other products, I can tell you that my JBR 1.25 RSB and RMM have been flawless. I can tell you that with both of these products torque steer has been eliminated in my vehicle. Im running the JRB RSB on the stiffest setting with factory end-links and haven't had a problem yet. Under steer is virtually eliminated, and the car will hit corners hard. Both quality products I would recommend to anyone. I have paired these products with Bilstein B8's and Swift springs, and can tell you with just what I have, this car handles phenomenal over stock.

I live in Western NC and we have some amazing roads, my car eats all of them up. In fact, a few weeks ago a friend and I did the Caesar Head circuit (Google map it if your not familiar) in his modified 2014 WRX. I chased him up, and he chased down. Neither of us could shake each other, and he was very impressed with my setup. The only thing I noticed was my suspension setup was far superior to my crappy all season tires I equipped for the winter season. On a few corners my tires would squeal and step out a bit giving me a little butt wiggle action, but my suspension was there to bitch slap it back in line when it got unruly. Once I get some stickier tires, Ill be running his WRX on the Dragon. I really didn't expect my car to handle as well as it did, but I'm glad it does. Any questions, just let me know.

To answer some of the questions @Inquisitive; PM'ed me about:

Did the suspension products you purchased:

1 live up to the hype- Absolutely. Couldn't have asked for better results for the money I spent!
2 have any negative comments - The only thing I noticed is the RSB is starting to squeak (needs grease) and my endlinks will eventually need replacing.
3 installation- The RSB was simple. 30 minutes max. The Bilstein B8's are a completely separate story, UGH!
4 offer good value - Yes, for the money I spent, I couldn't ask for more.
5 would you rather have chosen an alternative- If my bank account was endless I would have went with a coilover setup, but since this thread is really about Bars, I couldnt be happier with my JBR products!

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by license2ill Whiteline's sway bar is solid, right? All the others are hollow and a couple at 32mm.

The Corksport bar is solid.

Originally Posted by Inquisitive The JBR has three-way adjustment and the CS two. The JBR offers a lifetime warranty and the CS a two-year warranty. The JBR is made of chromoly and the CS aluminium.

The CS bar is solid steel (not aluminum - where did you get that from??), and actually has 3 settings.

The JBR bar has 5 settings.

My CS bar on the softest setting performs about the same as my JBR bar did on the middle (middle hole on both ends) setting, for what it's worth...

[Deldran]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 The Corksport bar is solid. The CS bar is solid steel (not aluminum - where did you get that from??), and actually has 3 settings. The JBR bar has 5 settings. My CS bar on the softest setting performs about the same as my JBR bar did on the middle (middle hole on both ends) setting, for what it's worth...

I am pretty certain my CS rsb only had 2 holes for adjustment. I think they did a couple design changes to their rsb

One thing that has been bugging me about this thread, is the couple claims I have seen of bars helping wheel hop. I am fairly certain a rear bar will have extremely little of any effect on wheel hop. A front bar might have a bit more effect, but only of said wheel hop induces body roll. If you are having wheel hop issues a bar is not the part you are looking for.

I will speak about the setup I had on my 3. I had the CS rear bar on the stiffest setting, CS endlinks, CPE stage 2 rmm, and mazdaspeed coilovers. aligned to -2 in the rear and -1.7 in the front. My car was very neutral, with understeer only occurring if I went to hot into a corner. There was likely more I could have done to allow me to go hotter into a corner, but I was extremely happy with how the car handled.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by Deldran I am pretty certain my CS rsb only had 2 holes for adjustment. I think they did a couple design changes to their rsb

Two holes on each side means 3 settings.

[license2ill]

Yeah, that's how Sure Motorsports survived. Glad those customers took some measurements after spending their money first.

[mituc]

The rear sway bar bushes have a smaller ID than the front bushes. I'm not sure if they are 25 or 25.5 but not 26 as the front. I didn't measure the sway bars but the bushes are different though.

[silvapain]

Anti roll bars only resist articulation movement, not movement where both side are displaced the same amount.

[EvoFire]

Front bars would help if both wheels don't hop in unison, though I have never looked at whether that's a thing or not.

[Inquisitive]

Originally Posted by EvoFire Front bars would help if both wheels don't hop in unison, though I have never looked at whether that's a thing or not.

It seems that members have more success with motor mounts than front bars at controlling wheel hop. To me, that unnecessary power can just be dialled out with AP and rather applied elsewhere - so to speak.

[EvoFire]

Originally Posted by Inquisitive It seems that members have more success with motor mounts than front bars at controlling wheel hop. To me, that unnecessary power can just be dialled out with AP and rather applied elsewhere - so to speak.

Oh of course I agree, just theoretically that applies. I don't think anyone has done it to cure hop though. I can see how it would help put power down coming out of a corner though, keeping things flatter.

[Inquisitive]

Are there any further comments on the OP?

Headings

• Changed Rear Camber Arms to Rear Camber as SPC’s Rear Camber Adjustment Kit is not technically a Rear Camber Arm
• Changed 4-Point Ladder Brace to 4-Point Braces as not all 4-Point Braces are Ladder types
• Removed Rear Brace Bars with previous content moved to Rear Strut Bars
• Changed to plural
• Changed Upper Control Arms to Front Adjustable Camber

Content

• Moved GTSPEC Front Lower Tie Brace, AutoExe Front Lower Arm Brace and UR Front Lower Bar to Front Traction Bars
• Added the Steeda / Racing Beat comparison image between the two product descriptions. Thanks @TiGraySpeed6;
• Moved whatever looked like a Rear Strut / Tower Bar to Rear Strut Bars – there might be some duplication here, such as:
CS Rear Chassis Brace ≡ Rear Brace Bar @Spencer@CorkSport; ?
• Removed duplicate UR Rear Tower / Strut Bar
• Moved UR Front Member Brace to 4-Point Braces as it looks like it has four points to me

Moved “How it works” and Technical Info to Top.

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 … And, THANK YOU for the effort & time you're putting into this, I hadn't realized this is one of the larger, if not the largest, category of parts available for the speeds.

Thanks for noticing. I certainly wasn’t trying to set any records, but I admit it is the largest project that I’ve done for @Raider;
.

[Nliiitend1]

@license2ill;

Did I stutter??

[EvoFire]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 @license2ill; Did I stutter??

I was wondering about that too wtf

[Raider]

For sure, this is going to the Knowledgebase!

Discuss further here:
http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...g-kind-185726/