Dano's Boost Tuning 101 + Cool Stuff

[Dano]

that does sound counter-intuitive...unless its a subtractive compensation and the ECU pulls timing by 5*...my money is on that...

[fjames]

Ahh, you cheated and read the help file

[Dano]

did not

really, I never read, nor follow, directions for that matter LOL...

it just seemed like a logical answer....why would Mazda add timing to a hot motor...answer...they wouldn't....

[kmac]

Dano I have to say this is one of my favorite treads to date. You did and are doing a great job with it. I learned quite a bit on the boost tuning. So basically thanks.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by SJP0tato Something I hadn't noticed that's interesting to those of us in hot climates: The Ign BAT vs ECT Comp tables indicate increasing timing with higher BATs, from 0 at 68-BAT way up to 5+ at 212-BAT. I'm guessing this must be an emissions related thing, because when my BATs go up in the summertime my KR definitely goes up as well. Increasing the ignition timing during all of this seems like it would only serve to worsen this situation. If it warms up any more here I might play with this some to see if it helps cut back the KR at higher temps.

I tweaked that table to never pull timing under my typical < 190°F operating temp targets...

[djuosnteisn]

I'd like to see someone with huevos put like 20's in the max timing tables in the high load rows. Ideally, we'd just set that arbitrarily high like we do with the max load values. It's just time consuming having to edit 3 tables when it should only be 1.


I'd do it on my car but... well... we all know that story.


Also, a note on Max calc load. The value in the map is simply the base value. I had joel (jwilks) on the dyno here not long ago, and he was hitting calc load clipping... how peculiar i thought. His loads were clipping at about 2.4 ish.

But i had logs from e-tunes when he was home at sea level, and he was routinely eclipsing 2.4, hitting 2.5 on occasion.

Turns out it's a baro scaling on the max load value. We're roughly 20% lower baro, and what do you know, 2.4ish is roughly 20% lower than the 3 in his map.

This informational nugget is really only meant for those intending on hitting extremely high loads at altitude.... but who would be that stupid


Oh, and another tid bit of information, cause this seems to be the ATR information thread lol. When FFS and LC are setup on a map... AFRs and timing will go overly conservative during a normal (non ffs) wot shift. At least it has on 2 cars i've tuned already.

/me also being bored at work.

[Dano]

hahaha

yes all that sounds like fun...but I like keeping my motor together.

BTW...I havent' logged it but my car does seem to hesitate a lil on a regular shift when getting back into throttle. At first I thought it was solely related to my boost comp [which did make it much worse] but turns out that even though I am back on APP I still get the hesitation.

I need to go back to logging multi gear pulls and find out what's what. My max enrich is set to 10.5...I may put that biatch at 11.8 [ my AFR target] and see what happens then on a regular shift.

I know you 6ers don't even have that table.

Dustin, the cars you speak of, were they 3s or 6s or both. I wonder if you could set the max enrich closer to AFR target and get rid of that BS.

I'll try it this weekend, we will hit the 70s so time to test out my calibrations at higher temps.

Originally Posted by kmac Dano I have to say this is one of my favorite treads to date. You did and are doing a great job with it. I learned quite a bit on the boost tuning. So basically thanks.

thanks...a lot of guys continue to contribute to this thread which is really what gives it credit, not just my experiments

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 Dustin, the cars you speak of, were they 3s or 6s or both. I wonder if you could set the max enrich closer to AFR target and get rid of that BS.

Both ms3's. One was a 2009, other was a 2007. The 2007 was 3speedy on the forum, and he and i have probably close to 50 logs of this shit til we figured it out hahahaha.


It's very very noticeable. Just do a wot pull, but shift normal. AFRs will drop to 10's and timing will be pulled by as much as 7+ degrees. You can definitely feel it.

I didn't play the enrichment table, only cause i'm uncertain if that's used for KR. And the fact that timing gets pulled made me think more was going on than simply a fuel table. But who knows.

Things looked fine with FFS though. So.... it's kinda like one or the other.

[Dano]

oh so it richened up and pulled timing...I read right past the timing part....what a POS.

if you put the FFS/LC back to OTS did it resolve the normal shift issue?

I'll have to try this out as well.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 oh so it richened up and pulled timing...I read right past the timing part....what a POS. if you put the FFS/LC back to OTS did it resolve the normal shift issue? I'll have to try this out as well.

Yup. Set it back to factory, and all was well with normal wot shifts.


AFAIK, the LC and FFS logic was custom by cobb. So there may be some unknown implications involved. But it did do it in both boost based, and load based tuning.

[Dano]

oh..so you can either have your cake.... or eat it....but not both....hum

thanks for the leg work and posting up the results.

[djuosnteisn]

I wish i could take credit for the leg work, but 3speedy deserves all of it. He's the one who was testing out all the ideas and helping me troubleshoot. I still have no legs to work with, sigh.

[Dano]

reminds me of back in the load cap days.....your car was apart and you worked with me to hack around that issue...it was a lot of work...but in the end it DID work and your concept was proven effective

[SJP0tato]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Yup. Set it back to factory, and all was well with normal wot shifts. AFAIK, the LC and FFS logic was custom by cobb. So there may be some unknown implications involved. But it did do it in both boost based, and load based tuning.

This might be worth a post in their forums to notify & let them know it's happening. With symptoms that specific hopefully they could either say "oops, we'll fix it", or at least give a specific reason why it does that.

[Dano]

I pinged Xtain and we'll see if he has any thoughts.

[djuosnteisn]

I just need to compile all the data together and send it to him.... not sure when i'll have time to do that lol. Hopefully not tooooooo long into the future.

Dano, you might be able to simply gather your own data, back to back in like 2 hours. If you end up doing this, lemme know so i don't spend an hour digging through logs n stuff.


Tomorrow is another top mount turbo install... tonight is welding everything up to be ready for it. And sunday is chore time (laying tile in my house so i can sell it).


<-------- way too fucking busy

[Dano]

I got cha covered... I am 99% sure before the weekend is over I'll have logs with FFS enabled and hopefully capture the cause, and logs with it disabled.

I'll cull down the PIDs to log so as to get high res and send them along with my maps to Xtain.

[evidence]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Both ms3's. One was a 2009, other was a 2007. The 2007 was 3speedy on the forum, and he and i have probably close to 50 logs of this shit til we figured it out hahahaha. It's very very noticeable. Just do a wot pull, but shift normal. AFRs will drop to 10's and timing will be pulled by as much as 7+ degrees. You can definitely feel it. I didn't play the enrichment table, only cause i'm uncertain if that's used for KR. And the fact that timing gets pulled made me think more was going on than simply a fuel table. But who knows. Things looked fine with FFS though. So.... it's kinda like one or the other.

Heh I noticed this a while back and had quite a few shots in the dark at it from people including dano and cld12pk

Rich after quick shifts

I guess I lacked the intelligence to correlate FFS working fine but quick shifts not and disable FFS lol. Even Cobb themselves commented in that thread so they are obviously un aware of the bug, or this is the intention so neuter FFS and make it safe? Good catch though, I disabled it a few days ago and the car feels so much better between shifts.. it used to bog like hell.

You can see from the logs that the car is actually requesting the rich AFR, so it is a bug in the logic and not a fluke. One thing to note though, you CAN set the max enrichment tables at 11AFR or whatever and you'll never see richer than that inbetween shifts. That's what I had been doing until I read your comments.. since it's pulling timing also though I've disabled FFS and moved my max enrich back to 10. Thanks again meng.

[Dano]

haha

I had forgotten all about that...

I have attached some baseline logs from this weekend. This was just on my normal map with FFS enabled and lift to shift and FFS logs. From the logs it is very obvious what is going on and is just as Dustin and Evidence laid down.

way rich after a LTS and in some instances 14* of timing was pulled post shift....talk about causing a bog! Sometimes its like flipping a light switch...its on, then completely off then slowly comes back on and the logs show just this with AFRs leaning up and ign coming back to requested.

I ran out of time so didn't try disabling FFS. I'll try and get this done during the week and post back but I suspect the trend will hold and the LTS shifts should be gold.

[m4tic]

im gonna take us off track again... i had a dream last night that i reduced the requested DI psi to 1569psi (-100 psi) to offset the difference in requested psi and actual rail psi. since having internals installed you have greater volume at the same pressure as stock internals(1669psi), maybe we are actually bogging the fuel system with the extra supplied pressure/volume....

yes i was tuning in my dream...

/okbacktoreality

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 I got cha covered... I am 99% sure before the weekend is over I'll have logs with FFS enabled and hopefully capture the cause, and logs with it disabled. I'll cull down the PIDs to log so as to get high res and send them along with my maps to Xtain.

CC me on the emails. I have some data logs i can add to the mix if necessary. Also, i want to retract my earlier statement that 3speedy had a 2007, he has a 2008.5.

Originally Posted by Dano2010 haha I had forgotten all about that... I have attached some baseline logs from this weekend. This was just on my normal map with FFS enabled and lift to shift and FFS logs. From the logs it is very obvious what is going on and is just as Dustin and Evidence laid down. way rich after a LTS and in some instances 14* of timing was pulled post shift....talk about causing a bog! Sometimes its like flipping a light switch...its on, then completely off then slowly comes back on and the logs show just this with AFRs leaning up and ign coming back to requested. I ran out of time so didn't try disabling FFS. I'll try and get this done during the week and post back but I suspect the trend will hold and the LTS shifts should be gold.

Perfect. It's insane, right? Like complete bog.






Now...... if only we were able to harness the timing of it.... it would make for a fantastic anti-lag strategy for those of us who are crazy enough to need it....

Originally Posted by bmorrisj im gonna take us off track again... i had a dream last night that i reduced the requested DI psi to 1569psi (-100 psi) to offset the difference in requested psi and actual rail psi. since having internals installed you have greater volume at the same pressure as stock internals(1669psi), maybe we are actually bogging the fuel system with the extra supplied pressure/volume.... yes i was tuning in my dream... /okbacktoreality

Only thing i can think of with the fuel pressure is that the phenomenon completely goes away once the FFS and LC are disabled. Even if higher fuel pressure is still requested.

I think there's a undiscovered scalar or some odd logic going on in the ecu, and the custom FFS and LC code seems to provoke it.... but only after a shift.

Oh, and i also experimented with making sure all CL max load values were very low, so as to avoid the ecu from going "below the threshold" during the shift. And it still didn't seem to help.

[Dano]

its 99.9 % on the way to full fuel cut kinda bog at times

rain here today and tomorrow so no logging yet.

[Realgib3]

Been lurking for a while... Ohhh how much has changed around here in the past 6 months... OK back to lurking and letting you guys work out all the kinks so I can have fun this summer. Hahahha

[Dano]

whatup man! a blast from the past....

you're welcome to chime in anytime here brotha!

[Realgib3]

Haha, I will soon. Made a lot of changes that have kept me crazy busy, but as of May I should be back full force. Just trying to start catching up for now.

[bova]

ok I'm going to go back to the whole running rich while normal shifting at WOT with FFS and LC. An issue I had that I brought up with Christian over a year ago, was this issue but didn't know it. When I was going WOT and shift normally getting on the next gear would stutter at first then take off, but if you shift with FFS you didn't have this issue. When I told him about it he didn't have an answer or a solution and thats pretty much where we left it. So I'm just guessing this is the same issue. it only happened in the lower gears though.

[djuosnteisn]

Log it, but i bet it happens in all gears. It goes pig rich, and timing goes way retarded.... and then sloooooowly comes back to normal in the next gear.

[SPEEDRAC3R]

subbing for reference

[bova]

i'll try but my quick shifting seems to have suffered because it seems things have become really notchy, i've even changed my transmission fluid and it's still really notchy at times, don't understand it.

[BlueStreak]

I have the same issue though I don`t have FFS or LC enabled.

Between shifts, the AP reads 10.3 AFRs consistently. Its odd since I don`t have any of my fueling tables richer than 11.0 AFR.

I haven`t had a look at timing, though.

[djuosnteisn]

Post up a log and a map if you want. I'll know right away if you have the issue.

[manelscout4life]

Weird, I kind of have this problem but not really, timing isn't pulled and I'm lean for like a millisecond.

on the F2 log I flat shifted on the D log I didn't. The D log was before I got a fuel pump which is why the pressure drops a bit.

[djuosnteisn]

Those are both the same map? With FFS and LC setup?

[manelscout4life]

They have minor changes but I'm pretty sure FFS and LC is setup exactly the same. I'll double check in an hour or so when I get home.

Edit: Yep just checked and this is how both of my Limiter tables were set.

[bova]

i was able to log no ffs wot and ffs wot and i'll start a new thread for it.

[evidence]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak I have the same issue though I don`t have FFS or LC enabled. Between shifts, the AP reads 10.3 AFRs consistently. Its odd since I don`t have any of my fueling tables richer than 11.0 AFR. I haven`t had a look at timing, though.

You have all 10 fuel tables dialed in, ya? Just want to be sure your not only speaking about the WOT tables, as the others can be used for a split second between shifts causing rich spikes if they are stock. If you do have them all set and you don't have FFS/LC, it's likely your MAF tables are just a bit off in the area your landing post shift.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Post up a log and a map if you want. I'll know right away if you have the issue.

Sure. I'll get one done in the next two days.

Originally Posted by evidence You have all 10 fuel tables dialed in, ya? Just want to be sure your not only speaking about the WOT tables, as the others can be used for a split second between shifts causing rich spikes if they are stock. If you do have them all set and you don't have FFS/LC, it's likely your MAF tables are just a bit off in the area your landing post shift.

Yep, they're all dialed in. I'll take a closer look at my MAF calibrations but as it stands, I know it's a little lean when I go WOT since I command 11.5AFR and get roughly 11.8.

[bova]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Post up a log and a map if you want. I'll know right away if you have the issue.

i started a thread for this issue

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...out-ffs-75117/

[Dano]

bova, thanks for posting up and linking to your thread. All this information coming to light a year later just goes to show that sometimes it just takes awhile to put all the pieces together and this forum is a great place to store all your pieces for future use

I think we can all conclude from the evidence that there is indeed an issue with Cobbs implementation of LC/FFS and we just need to get data into their hands for analysis.

my work has me covered up night and day and I have not had a chance to disable FFS, capture logs and send them to Christian yet, maybe this weekend.

[R.MS3]

My car is stock right now but bought the AP a second time for my next MS3 lol.

Figured i would play around with the stock map and see how it reacted. 15psi target dropping to 14@6k rpm, 11.3AFR dropping to 10.8@6k rpm.

I set WG@20% to start but you can see from the logs it's not reaching my boost targets yet. Boost comp. table and WG IAT comp. table are the ones that Christian recommended.

It's impressive to say the least. Back when i had my AP the first time, it was such a pain to get right boost levels on a load tuning. Now AFR and boost are pretty much what i want. Timing matches my tables EXACTLY. Load is reaching a nice 1.75 w/ 14.5psi. It's pure win.

Noticed my trims didn't zero out but i had the CL tables changes in there. Made some tweaks and added the DBW 80 to 100 change to see if it gets better. Log is after 7 miles on the map.

Next step is to try WG@25% and change timing tables from 91octane to 93 since i wanted to start conservative.