Dano's Boost Tuning 101 + Cool Stuff

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

So, I only drive down 35mph roads on the way to the office, so I couldn't do a whole pull, but I did a spool up pull from 2800 (where I usually start), and I hit full boost at 3400. before that same start would have got me full boost by 3600. So my results are consistent... Yeah!

Anyway, the main reason for this post is to ask if changing an ignition table (see above) can result in bizarre afrs. You can see in my above log that afrs are all over the place at wot... I thought that maybe the ecu needed a couple minutes to adjust, but no, I got the same thing this morning. Again, there is no corresponding KR, but I am getting sporadic dips in the 10s and peaks in the mid 12s.

I did not have this problem before and I only changed that one ignition table... I copied the donated table attached above.

Any thoughts?

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Ok, so two other pieces of info, and one is pretty interesting.

First, I finally got a full 3rd and 4th gear log, and spool up is down to 450rpm in 4th, and the weird afrs are there, but after about 4500, they stabilize and are perfect???

Also, and although not as important to me, but more helpful for everyone, my ignition is not following this table, but after multiple logs it is clearly affecting the spool up. Also, it isn't following my other ignition tables exactly either during spool up.

I still have tons to learn, so I do overlook obvious pieces of info sometimes, so if anyone wants to see any logs, just let me know.

[SJP0tato]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak Unless you have my car. I swapped the stocker out for a corksport TMIC, and either I had a freakishly good stock TMIC, or I don't know what. I don't see any extra boost at max wgdc, and it doesn't look like my observed wgdc has changed at all from pre- to post- install. Bah humbug.

Has the ambient temp risen after the install of the new TMIC? Or have you checked for boost leaks? There should be "some" kind of improvement over stock.

[Enki]

The afrs change due to MAF cal, ECT, and boost temps. You'll need to do several logs and compare them before modifying your MAF curve to make sure it will work. If everything stays as it is, then changing the MAF curve should fix your AFR issues.

[Speed3eak]

Originally Posted by SJP0tato Has the ambient temp risen after the install of the new TMIC? Or have you checked for boost leaks? There should be "some" kind of improvement over stock.

No, ambient temps were 70-80F before install, and 70-80F after the install.

The only thing that seemed to bring down my observed BATs was lowering boost.

No boost leaks either, AFRs at WOT and fuel trims are spot on so all the air coming in is finding its way to the combustion chamber.

The only real improvement I can see has been that my BATs seem to drop a little more quickly than before. With a grimmspeed ebcs and the new TMIC, and a UR test pipe, I can't hit any more boost than before (stock, with only an intake) at redline.

My guess is that I just have a shit wastegate actuator. I hit the same boost @ redline at 80 wgdc that I do at 100 wgdc, and this is with the grimmspeed. At any rate 16 psi at redline isn't the worst so I'll live with it for the time being.

[Ziggo]

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...d.php?p=859376

Sounds like GEN2s came with an upgraded intercooler compared to GEN1s. That probably is why I have seen gen2s make a bit more power mod for mod and why they have fuel issues "sooner" than gen1s.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak No, ambient temps were 70-80F before install, and 70-80F after the install. The only thing that seemed to bring down my observed BATs was lowering boost. No boost leaks either, AFRs at WOT and fuel trims are spot on so all the air coming in is finding its way to the combustion chamber. The only real improvement I can see has been that my BATs seem to drop a little more quickly than before. With a grimmspeed ebcs and the new TMIC, and a UR test pipe, I can't hit any more boost than before (stock, with only an intake) at redline. My guess is that I just have a shit wastegate actuator. I hit the same boost @ redline at 80 wgdc that I do at 100 wgdc, and this is with the grimmspeed. At any rate 16 psi at redline isn't the worst so I'll live with it for the time being.

Wait a minute...so you have an intake, TMIC and test pipe and you can't make more than OE boost? Or did I miss something?

is your throttle closing?

[rfinkle2]

Unsubscribed...K?

[Speed3eak]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 Wait a minute...so you have an intake, TMIC and test pipe and you can't make more than OE boost? Or did I miss something? is your throttle closing?

Nah, I can make 20+ psi earlier on in the rev band.

I just can't hold over 16 psi at redline (6500) rpm. I'm fairly convinced that it's my wastegate being forced open by exhaust gas on account of it having a weak spring or something.

Or it might just be stuck open, and/or might have a leak - I just did a log today of an OTS stage 2 tune and didn't hit over 17 psi the whole way through.

It could also be a dying turbo, but I haven't seen any smoke or anything. I hear a supercharger whine at WOT, so I figured it was my turbo but realgib said the sound was probably coming from my fuel pump.

Throttle is ~76 all the way through after I messed with the load tables.

Whatever the situation the parts that may be broken result in less stress on the motor so I'm thankful for that at least.

@Ckmazdaspeed3 - I'm sorry I haven't been paying attention to your spool issues, or if it's resolved yet, but the VVT tables affect spooling a lot. If you're running OTS values though that shouldn't be your issue.

I've also heard people recommend lean fueling conditions on spool-up, but I don't have any experience with this myself. What exhaust manifold are you using?

[manelscout4life]

get a dp

[Speed3eak]

Originally Posted by manelscout4life get a dp

CNT catted DP is actually already on it's way - couldn't miss out on that group buy going on earlier.

I still haven't decided if I'm gonna weld in a resonator before installing it though.

I'm considering selling my TMIC now though, seeing as the stocker seems fine for the k04. Anybody want a corksport TMIC? lol.

[wolly6973]

I have the same boost curve as you.
I can hold 19-20 through 4500, 18 to 5k, 17 at 5500, 16 at 6000

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak CNT catted DP is actually already on it's way - couldn't miss out on that group buy going on earlier. I still haven't decided if I'm gonna weld in a resonator before installing it though. I'm considering selling my TMIC now though, seeing as the stocker seems fine for the k04. Anybody want a corksport TMIC? lol.

Keep the TMIC. With the TMIC and the DP you have on order, you'll be able to maintain 19 PSI to redline :-)

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak Nah, I can make 20+ psi earlier on in the rev band. I just can't hold over 16 psi at redline (6500) rpm. I'm fairly convinced that it's my wastegate being forced open by exhaust gas on account of it having a weak spring or something. Or it might just be stuck open, and/or might have a leak - I just did a log today of an OTS stage 2 tune and didn't hit over 17 psi the whole way through. It could also be a dying turbo, but I haven't seen any smoke or anything. I hear a supercharger whine at WOT, so I figured it was my turbo but realgib said the sound was probably coming from my fuel pump. Throttle is ~76 all the way through after I messed with the load tables. Whatever the situation the parts that may be broken result in less stress on the motor so I'm thankful for that at least. @Ckmazdaspeed3 - I'm sorry I haven't been paying attention to your spool issues, or if it's resolved yet, but the VVT tables affect spooling a lot. If you're running OTS values though that shouldn't be your issue. I've also heard people recommend lean fueling conditions on spool-up, but I don't have any experience with this myself. What exhaust manifold are you using?

interesting....the DP will help reduce the back-pressure in the EM so your WG will have less force trying to open it. Then WGDC should allow you to maintain boost and IIRC I was running 19PSI to 6.5K without trouble. I was spraying 5050 meth at that time.

edit: hahaha bluestreak posted the same time I did...but yes 19PSI should be doable.

Edit 2: it may be close on OE boost control but doable on EBC in 3 port but I wouldn't push the lil K04 that hard without some serious meth. IIRC 12pk is on OE control and holds 19 at around 6.5k.

Edit: 3: After looking back at older logs I was only reving out to 6K.

[Speed3eak]

So what's the word on spraying meth at lower boost pressures?

This weekend I'm gonna try and get my meth setup ready and start spraying. Still need to tweak my OTS stage 2 tune, but I'm pretty happy with it right now as I don't get more than 1* KR. I was scared shitless recently when I saw one WOT log I did had a sustained 4* KR for almost the entire run, so I'll take less power if it means less knock, for the time being of course.

My goals for my stage 2 tune are gonna be max of 18.5 psi, tapering to ~17 at redline. Because of the meth I'm gonna try and get my power from timing rather than from boost. Shooting for 15* or so at redline, hopefully that isn't too aggressive. Also gonna be running a 50/50 mix through a d05 nozzle.

Thanks for the comments guys, and sorry to clutter the thread with my inane complaints about my car.

[Dano]

Quick thought. Spray 100% water first on ur existing tune starting at 8PS and see how logs look.

Personally I prefer boost over timing.

Get where you want to be on boost then work on timing.



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[Speed3eak]

Well it may become an issue of how much boost I can actually generate right now.

16 psi at redline at 100% wgdc means I need to look elsewhere for power until I get that CNT downpipe delivered/installed.

[Ziggo]

I am only running 16.5psi at redline with a full TBE/intake/FMIC. I could probably force it to hold more boost if I had a grimmspeed, but at 16.5psi I toasted my turbo last weekend at the track, and I am running 11.3afrs up there.

If you want more than that it's time to start thinking about a turbo upgrade.

[Dano]

So I went back and looked at older logs and I need to modify my earlier statement. While I was hitting 19PSI on 100% meth with M5 nozzle, I was only reving out to 6K. I think that's when I decided to get the new turbo.

sorry for the mis-information.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak So what's the word on spraying meth at lower boost pressures? This weekend I'm gonna try and get my meth setup ready and start spraying. Still need to tweak my OTS stage 2 tune, but I'm pretty happy with it right now as I don't get more than 1* KR. I was scared shitless recently when I saw one WOT log I did had a sustained 4* KR for almost the entire run, so I'll take less power if it means less knock, for the time being of course. My goals for my stage 2 tune are gonna be max of 18.5 psi, tapering to ~17 at redline. Because of the meth I'm gonna try and get my power from timing rather than from boost. Shooting for 15* or so at redline, hopefully that isn't too aggressive. Also gonna be running a 50/50 mix through a d05 nozzle. Thanks for the comments guys, and sorry to clutter the thread with my inane complaints about my car.

What I have found with running my M7 nozzle set to a 8 PSI start is a dip in AFR when the spray begins. it goes from 12.x down to 11.2 then back up to my 11.9 target. I am attempting to counter this by adjusting my WOT commanded AFR in that RPM range. I typically go WOT in the same range so this should work and be much easier than putting a dip in my MAF cal where the voltages could be different depending on which gear you go WOT in.

This weekend I'll be going to an M10 nozzle so if i don't adjust the fueling it would only get worse.

of course this is probably me just being OCD but I'll experiment with it to see if it makes any difference.

[Nataphen]

I've just been toying with the tune lately, trying new things little by little. I increased my VVT by 5* from 3k+ RPM and 1.00+ load with no other changes, and my g/s so far as I can tell increased by about 5 peak over 5-6 3rd and 4th gear pulls with no increase in KR. I'm going to bump it up by 2* more and see what I get. The car feels like it pulls a little harder, but I hate going on SOTP, so the g/s is the main thing that I'm focusing on.

I know that this isn't directly related to boost tuning, but I am on a boost based map, so I'm just sharing my results.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Originally Posted by Nataphen I've just been toying with the tune lately, trying new things little by little. I increased my VVT by 5* from 3k+ RPM and 1.00+ load with no other changes, and my g/s so far as I can tell increased by about 5 peak over 5-6 3rd and 4th gear pulls with no increase in KR. I'm going to bump it up by 2* more and see what I get. The car feels like it pulls a little harder, but I hate going on SOTP, so the g/s is the main thing that I'm focusing on. I know that this isn't directly related to boost tuning, but I am on a boost based map, so I'm just sharing my results.

I was under the impression that the vvt adjustments were not really helpful later in the rpm range. Is that not the case? Will they benefit performance even at 5500+rpm?... I can tell you they help w spool up, IF u are having issues w it like me.

Originally Posted by FORZDA 1 You really need a dyno to effectively modify the VVT, but in "general" you want the intake camshaft advanced at lower rpms (<3500) to increase torque and reduce it to zero (or so...) as the revs come up. Here are some values that work well for my BNR 2871 at Loads 2.00 and up. With WG only(no help from EBCS), it spools to up to 10psi by ~2600 rpms. Basically if the turbo fully spooled, you really don't need or want any intake cam advance as the DI setup puts the fuel inside the CC unlike a port injected or carbed car where you need the fuel/air mixture to flow in, so the highly pressurized manifold air is all thats needed to fill the CC. Note that the 30 values are the OEM settings, so you could advance a bit more if you wanted, but be careful of popping the injector seals with too much CC pressure... 0.00 30.00 30.00 30.00 30.00 30.00 15.00 15.00 15.00 5.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00

Nathan, this is what I'm referring to.

[Nataphen]

I'll have to dial it back then, maybe the g/s was only increased due to ambient conditions. This car is difficult to figure out from day to day.

[friscoplayrsf]

My ap is on the way what should I start reading? THe atr help guide?

[Nataphen]

Wouldn't hurt. Read the tuning threads here too.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Nataphen I'll have to dial it back then, maybe the g/s was only increased due to ambient conditions. This car is difficult to figure out from day to day.

the STIG covered VVT tuning in post 1144 but advance is only needed until you get the turbo spooled.

[Abilor]

Originally Posted by friscoplayrsf My ap is on the way what should I start reading? THe atr help guide?

My "I got an AP" thread is a good stepping stone between noobhood and the expert advice in this thread.

I am not worthy to speak to Dano or Dustin directly yet.

[SJP0tato]

I'm wondering if anyone can take a look and give some suggestions on "where to go" as far as tuning based on my log/info: My mods are Corksport Intake & TMIC on my MS6. I'm wondering if it would be better to turn up the boost or start working on timing?
I've been debating adding a downpipe to my mods, but the fuel pump requirement has me hesitating. I figure there's gotta be more to squeeze out of my current setup before adding more mods.

Appreciate any suggestions!

[Lex]

Originally Posted by SJP0tato I'm wondering if anyone can take a look and give some suggestions on "where to go" as far as tuning based on my log/info: My mods are Corksport Intake & TMIC on my MS6. I'm wondering if it would be better to turn up the boost or start working on timing? I've been debating adding a downpipe to my mods, but the fuel pump requirement has me hesitating. I figure there's gotta be more to squeeze out of my current setup before adding more mods. Appreciate any suggestions!

You don't have much more room to breathe on the stock turbo at those ambient temperatures. MAYBE 5-10 more g/s. Look at those rising BATs as you approach redline - the poor thing is a flamethrower.

[Dano]

Word!

you might get more PSI in the mid range but your top end is done. The motor needs to breath and the DP would do that but as you indicated you need a good CDFP before the DP.

[SJP0tato]

Thanks guys, that's what I figured. The turbo is definitely way outside its efficiency range up top.

Maybe I'll try squeezing a little bit more out of the mid-range, but otherwise I'll call it "good" until the mod bug bites again.

[evidence]

Agurred, but it looks like you might have some room to step timing up if those small spikes of knock aren't consistent. Meth does wonders in this AZ heat, though you already have other mods on the list

[Nataphen]

Just thought that I would share a little info on my tune again. I dialed VVT back to the Cobb OTS setting except for the 2500-3000 columns, I left it at +5* there. Turbo spool seems MUCH quicker there, but still remains under control. 4th gear log starting at 3k RPM spun up from -9psi to 18psi in 1.0 second. It stopped right at my boost target, so would that be a bad thing? It just seems unusually quick, and I'm not sure if it's OK for the turbo and/or motor or not. I have less than .7 KR at all times, and what little I get is inconsistent.

[FORZDA 1]

Your call on leaving the VVT advanced more then OEM as long as you know what its doing. When the intake opens early, it also closes early (the critical timing event) which increases dynamic compression, torque, and increases exhaust velocity and heat to help turbo spool-up. IMO, Mazda set up the VVT to have that killer torque at low rpms (peak is @ 3k rpms and drops dramatically from there) to make the little 2.3 motor feel like a bigger one. It works great until you step over the "line".

IMO, the VVT should retard out fairly rapidly when the turbo is at boost target. I was working on this VVT tuning when it shit itself and popped injector seals on the dyno a while back. Note that I had run some fairly extreme values in street tunes to see how much it affected SOTP. I felt the slight changes in the power pull as the VVT would ramp down, but it wasn't smooth. I can't say for sure yet, but it may need to drop instantly at some point rather than ramp down. I'll get it figured out some day....

[Ziggo]

The other thing to note is that as the exhaust manifold pressure goes up, it will exceed intake manifold pressure and having the intake valve overlap the exhaust valve doesn't do you any good and you could actually get more fresh air into the cylinder if the intake valve opened later.

[Dano]

Is it fair to say tuning VVT is very tricky and very hard to quantify overall positive results?

[FORZDA 1]

Originally Posted by Ziggo The other thing to note is that as the exhaust manifold pressure goes up, it will exceed intake manifold pressure and having the intake valve overlap the exhaust valve doesn't do you any good and you could actually get more fresh air into the cylinder if the intake valve opened later.

Yep, there is that "line" of deminishing returns for just about everything. There are a few tuning parameters that MUST be tested out on the dyno like ignition timing and of course, VVT.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Idk, some effects of vvt are quite obvious. I mean, this is the one parameter that had the greatest affect on reducing my spool time... It is obvious in my logs.

So unless I'm missing something, it seems like timing; you can get noticeable gains from a small amount on the street, but to do it to the max safely, you must be on a dyno.

ForzdA, how extreme did you go? I stay at about 30, w one column hitting 35. I also drop off about where you do. I wonder if I could safely play around with up to another ten degrees or so, as my spool up is still not satisfactory.

[MattJackson86]

First real logs of my AP tune attached. Loving the AP compared to the SB. This thread (and others) were a great help as to where I should start. Started off with the Stage2 SF+FMIC map. Still running on my oem intercooler, but fmic will be installed this weekend. Just looking to figure out the tune and see how it drives.

I changed the OL/CL transitions to 1.25
Target boost of 18.5 tapering off after 5000 (like I had with the SB)
Target AFR of 11.0, though I see to be running 11.8ish. I eventually want 11.8, but I want to target that. Maf must be off still.
MAF has been calibrated
Made the throttle open 100%.

All logs are 3rd gear, 4th gear on street is tough around here. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Just if I am missing anything, if something looks wacky, etc. I am also talking to Dustin regrading the tune and may get a tune from him directly.

[manelscout4life]

You needs more boost.

I put up the boost targets, WGDC tables, and BD tables either in this thread or Ziggos, try using them.