Dano's Boost Tuning 101 + Cool Stuff

[MattJackson86]

Yea it looks like I need to up the WGDC a tad more.

[manelscout4life]

heres mine.

[XLT_66]

Well, I finally got my downpipe installed and loaded up my first Stage 2 map. Took the Stage 2 + SF 93 v1.08 map and did all the tweaks we've come to determine should be standard so far. Fuel tables, closed loop tables, adjust my APP tables to my liking, etc.

Here is my first logs. The first 2 start in 3rd gear and run through 5th gear. The third log is just 3rd gear.

My boosted air temps seem quite high for when I took these logs. Ambient temps were about 83 degrees. I'm wondering if installing the downpipe has had that much affect. I reinstalled 2 out of the 3 heat shields, leaving out the one that attached the the stock downpipe.

Tageting 19 PSI, tapered to 17.5 PSI @ 6500 RPM. Targeting 11.8 AFR tapered down to 11.6 up high.

As you can see, the car is running quite lean. I have not done a MAF cal run since I installed the downpipe but my LTFTs are not coming in off the charts.

Anyone have any input as to where to start? I'll be doing a MAF cal at lunch to see if that is an issue but it's been pretty dialed in for quite some time now.

I've already started tweaking the WGDC so I hit full boost faster from 2500-4000 RPM and reduced it a tad from 4500-5000 RPM as I'm overboosting a bit.

These logs were taken using FFS and I'm going to remove it until I get everything else dialed in.

Thanks for looking.

[speedms6]

fuel pressure is dropping way to much, also spending alot of time in high boost and very lean

[XLT_66]

Originally Posted by speedms6 fuel pressure is dropping way to much, also spending alot of time in high boost and very lean

I'm working on the fact that the car is running lean. I had it spot on before I put the downpipe on.

As far as fuel pressure goes. I think it looks pretty good with the exception of the spot where the car suddenly went really rich into the 10's AFR. It appears the FP couldn't keep up when at 19 PSI of Boost and a sudden drop in AFR.

Is that the spot you were looking at? The first log, cells 14-20?

[speedms6]

yeah there and a couple other blips of the 1500's, thats the way my pump started, would see it every once in a while, then slowly start seeing it more then boom one day im pushin 600 psi goin wot and the car is running like crap, new internals changed all of that of course

[manelscout4life]

There's a spot where your fuel pressure drops to 1200's. It's only going to get worse just get a fuel pump.

[m4tic]

Originally Posted by XLT_66 I'm working on the fact that the car is running lean. I had it spot on before I put the downpipe on. As far as fuel pressure goes. I think it looks pretty good with the exception of the spot where the car suddenly went really rich into the 10's AFR. It appears the FP couldn't keep up when at 19 PSI of Boost and a sudden drop in AFR. Is that the spot you were looking at? The first log, cells 14-20?

the fuel pump should never be able to "not keep up" ... that right there is your first huge red flag.

[Dano]

The others are correct. Right around the time you install a RP, TP or DP is when you need a pump or internals. you begin to flow more g/s requiring more fuel and the OE pump just doesn't cut the mustard. You are seeing the typical scenario where you get momentary drops in FP then they become more numerous and fall further down until one day you either see the FP bottom out or you see a rod exit the block.

A CDFP isn't a "fun" purchase but but very necessary....I just made my second one

EdgeAutosport has 1 CPE pump left as of last week and are your fastest route to correct this. Autotech internals aren't due until the end of June but they will not warranty the 2.0 VW TSI internals in our pumps but they do work. Not sure about any of the other internal choices.

I haven't looked at your logs but if you could compare g/s before and after that would be further proof you need a pump upgrade, but really, at any time you fall to ~1200PSI at WOT its time.

Edit: oh and keep in mind that just because you see 1600PSI doesn't mean you have enough fuel volume to supply demand and eventually FP does drop.

[XLT_66]

Yeah, it's time. Did some afternoon logs and I saw FP drop to below 1000 PSI.

Son of a bitch.

I droped BT to 18 PSI until I can swing some internals. Don't have the cash for a CPE pump so it looks like some KMDs are in my future.

I just e-mailed Mara over at KMD to see what the deal is.

The "not so fun" purchases really blow. I've done the cpe SafeSeals and now I need the fuel pump internals.

At least I get to keep driving the Maserati Granturismo for another week.

[Dano]

yeah, well I have seen my pressure drop twice now so two pumps in the life of my modding...very very NOT fun LOL

[m4tic]

Originally Posted by XLT_66 Yeah, it's time. Did some afternoon logs and I saw FP drop to below 1000 PSI. Son of a bitch. I droped BT to 18 PSI until I can swing some internals. Don't have the cash for a CPE pump so it looks like some KMDs are in my future. I just e-mailed Mara over at KMD to see what the deal is. The "not so fun" purchases really blow. I've done the cpe SafeSeals and now I need the fuel pump internals. At least I get to keep driving the Maserati Granturismo for another week.

no no run wg spring and keep your foot out of it

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 I haven't looked at your logs but if you could compare g/s before and after that would be further proof you need a pump upgrade, but really, at any time you fall to ~1200PSI at WOT its time.

Is 1200PSI an arbitrary number?

[Dano]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak Is 1200PSI an arbitrary number?

AFAIK 1200 or somewhere thereabouts has been "accepted" as the low bar for determining when the CDFP will not be able to keep up with fueling demand. It may be in the Cobb documentation somewhere IDK.

It could happen at 1400 PSI on some cars I suppose but the symptoms will be the same...lean AFR, stuttering, etc.

I don't routinely monitor CDFP pressure but my car started stuttering during the 2nd gear of every WOT pull and when logged was very briefly dropping to below 1K PSI. Otherwise my pressure was in the 1700-1800 range but as demand continued VOLUME was dropping and eventually tanks pressure.

Then it began to crap out even at 1/2 throttle in just about any gear...

simply reducing your boost to say 18PSI will not necessarily put you in the save zone if your pump is failing. staying out of WOT is what is necessary IMO.

Depending on how long the pressure drops or if it stays at low pressure your pump may have seized which could cause intake cam shaft follower damage if it seized in the extended position.

my normal pressure remained at ~1700 PSI so I didn't expect any damage.

I should have my new pump in weekend after next and will see what caused my PTP pump to fail and will post results here:

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...mp-fail-81653/

[speedms6]

Originally Posted by XLT_66 Yeah, it's time. Did some afternoon logs and I saw FP drop to below 1000 PSI. Son of a bitch. I droped BT to 18 PSI until I can swing some internals. Don't have the cash for a CPE pump so it looks like some KMDs are in my future. I just e-mailed Mara over at KMD to see what the deal is. The "not so fun" purchases really blow. I've done the cpe SafeSeals and now I need the fuel pump internals. At least I get to keep driving the Maserati Granturismo for another week.

look up autotech internals as well, have em and love em, and so far i dont tihnk anybodies on this forum who have them ahs failed, just gotta install carefully and make sure you clean and lubricate properly

[amoosenamedhank]

With all this talk about failed fuel pumps you bastards jinxed me. My pump shit the bed on the way home tonight. I'm seeing around 70psi.

This pump also has had KMD internals for 30k+ miles. They car is rattling a bit but tbat could be from the lack of fuel. I haven't noted any KR so hopefully nothing let go.

It was making some strange sounds on start up but that pretty much stopped when the temps warmed up and the pump was holding pressure fine until it didn't. No real warning with pressure drop.

[Dano]

Are you saying you only ever have 70 PSI? If so pull that pump asap and don't drive the car. Look at the plunger and hope it seized in the compressed position so as to not damage the cam follower.

Also take a look at said follower for signs of scaring.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[amoosenamedhank]

I was 2 blocks from home when it happened so I just limped it home. Fuel pressure PSI would raise with throttle input, but nothing substantial. It's parked now. I got the pump out last night but then had a meeting right afterwards, so I didn't have any time for inspection.

I'm hoping for the best at this point.

[Dano]

Cool,

Hoping for the best for ya.

[Abilor]

Originally Posted by amoosenamedhank I was 2 blocks from home when it happened so I just limped it home. Fuel pressure PSI would raise with throttle input, but nothing substantial. It's parked now. I got the pump out last night but then had a meeting right afterwards, so I didn't have any time for inspection. I'm hoping for the best at this point.

Ugh. Scares the hell out of me. I keep thinking about my install; was it clean enough? Lubed enough? This platform is so anxiety provoking... Good luck bro. Hopefully all you need are new internals.

[MattJackson86]

What are the suggested BD values for a stock turbo but with a grimmspeed EBCS?

[Dano]

Originally Posted by MattJackson86 What are the suggested BD values for a stock turbo but with a grimmspeed EBCS?

I don't think it matters as much which turbo you have as much as how much you change the boost control system hardware. runnnig a BC in 3port (assuming you will run the GS in 3 port mode) is much faster reacting than the OE setup.

This means that the OTS/OE BD table values are way too reactive for this setup. You could start out by using my values which came from Christian and were developed over months of trial and error on 3 port systems. Some were BT and some K04s. I don't remember if he has a different BD table for the K04.

You will also need to drop WGDC down way lower than OE...suggested is 15 IIRC and work your way back up.

The spool characteristics for different turbos will require different values in the WGDC table but probably not too much difference in the BD table the closer you stay to the OE system.

Changing to EWG and 3 port and 35r might require more signifiant changes. LOL

[MattJackson86]

Yes I am running it in 3 port mode. I will use the BD values posted way back: http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post674638

I did drop my WGDC and just wanted to get BD setup correctly before I start upping the WGDC again.

[MattJackson86]

Another question about WGDC....

If I am not hitting my boost targets at say 4250rpm, do I up the WGDC in the column labeled 4000 or the column labeled 4500? I have a suspicion that it should be the 4500 column as I have been changing the 4000 and it just gets more out of whack.

Same question for boost targets I guess. If I have 16psi set in the 3000 column, will that mean target 16 from 3000-3500 or target 16 from 2500-3000?

[m4tic]

I would think each cell would represent the minimum unit measured.. so 4000rpm because the state of 4500rpm hasn't happened

[MattJackson86]

I would think so too, but I am seeing otherwise. My WGDC table and log is attached. Checkout the wavy WGDC table and the boost oscillating too but not where I would expect.

At 3900 rpms I am at 19.8psi when I target 18.5. So I keep lowering the 3500 column in WGDC. At 4485 rpms I am at 17.43psi, again I target 18.5 so I keep raising the WGDC in the 4000 column. The numbers are now so far apart and the more I lower/raise them the worse this issue gets.

If I assume that at 3900 I need to lower the 4000 column that makes more sense as the 4000 column is huge (thinking I was raising boost at 4400rpms). Thus I need to raise the 4500 column as I am low at 4400 and again this makes sense as the 4500 column is super low again (thinking it would lower boost from 4500-5000).

I have changed the WGDC table to how I think it now works, but it was just not how I expected it to work. Will post back if it helps, but just curious if someone knew the answer.

New logic also makes sense as why would we need to tune above 7000rpms? So the 7000 column would be fro 6500-7000, makes more sense instead of thinking its for 7000-7500.

[Enki]

I think you can think of the mid ranged targets for any table value as being interpolated; they (should) scale between the two; if 4k rpm is set for 0 and 4500 is set for 100, then 4250 should be interpolated as 50.

[MattJackson86]

Changed my Boost Targets and WGDC table to use the thinking that the column is the max rpms. Boost holds much better and it is a night/day difference. So if you are low at 3750, change the 4000 column. See attached WGDC table and latest log. This is after just the 1 change, not fine tuned it yet.

[superskaterxes]

enki is right, always interpolate between row/column values

[Realgib3]

So Dan... I tried a boost tune finally just for shits... and I actually like it? Wtf? Haha. Now I just need mas turbo...

[Dano]

Originally Posted by MattJackson86 Changed my Boost Targets and WGDC table to use the thinking that the column is the max rpms. Boost holds much better and it is a night/day difference. So if you are low at 3750, change the 4000 column. See attached WGDC table and latest log. This is after just the 1 change, not fine tuned it yet.

IP is what the ECU will do between columns so if you are closer to 3500 that column will influence what happens if you are closer to 4K it will influence what happens.

Sometimes you can raise DC 200 RPMs before target and reach your target, if that target is closer to the lower RPM point in the table. If however your target is falling short closer to the upper RPM column, it will control DC.

does that even make sence? LOL

Originally Posted by Realgib3 So Dan... I tried a boost tune finally just for shits... and I actually like it? Wtf? Haha. Now I just need mas turbo...

hahaha

weren't you one of the ones bashing boost tuning in favor of load tuning a few months ago

haha I can deal with both but today, right now, this minute I prefer boost....subject to change without notice.

I found it especially difficult to dial in the LD table for my 3 port + GT28 setup with the very different spool characteristics. Much more so than the BD table on the same setup.

Load varies with AMB temps so unless you make ALL your LD table and TRL changes on the exact same day with exact same AMB temps you don't know if your LD value change made the difference or AMB temps made the difference.

Those with more experience with different turbo/ boost control system setup would probably fair better.

my .02 worth.

[superskaterxes]

hope you guys saw this

ATR Resolution to Oddities Reported with the Pressure-Based Boost Tuning Calibrations

Originally Posted by Christian. AccessTUNER Race Resolution to the Oddities Reported with the Pressure-Based Boost Tuning Calibrations. We have spent extensive time searching through the ECU logic and have found that some ECUs will kick in with some WGDC compensations based on a load error. This behavior is not consistent from vehicle-to-vehicle, but can be frustrating for those vehicles that exhibit this behavior. Our suggestion for a temporary work-around was to fine tune the Throttle - Req. Load - X Gear (Norm BAT) tables in order to allow the boost control system to behave as desired. This latest batch of ECU discovery work (thanks greatly to David Liu, our MS ECU Guru, for researching this extensively) has allowed us to derive the following math as to how the factory ECU's boost targeting works. Boost Error = Actual Boost - Requested Boost Target; Boost Error Compensation = (2D Lookup table of Error vs. Compensation); Load Error = (Actual Load - Requested Load Target); Load Error Compensation = (2D Lookup table of Error vs. Compensation); If (WG Boost Error Limiter (Past calculation) < -10%) then (WG Boost Error Limter = 0); else WG Boost Error Limiter = (Boost Error Compensation + Previous WG Boost Error Limiter); if (WG Boost Error Limiter > 10%) (WG Boost Error Limiter = 0); else if (WG Boost Error Limiter < -100%) (WG Boost Error Limiter = -100%); Load Error Limiter/Final = (Load Error Compensation + WG Boost Error Limiter) if (Load Error Limiter/Final > 20%) (Load Error Limiter/Final = 20%); else if (Load Error Limiter/Final < -100%) (Load Error Limiter/Final = -100%); Final WG Duty = (Wastegate IAT Compensation * WG Duty) Final WG Duty = (Final WG Duty + Battery Compensation) Final WG Duty = (Final WG Duty + Load error Limiter/Final) As the above math may be difficult for some to understand, we are able to modify a few tables withing the ECU to greatly simplify the boost tuning process. We can eliminate the ability of the ECU to modify WGDC based on a load error by setting the newly exposed WG Duty Load Error Comp. table to zero as pictured below. 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 This will force the ECU to solely use feedback from the MAP sensor for all boost tuning strategies. Any errors in load targeting will have no influence on boost control. The values in the WG Duty Cycles table are used as a base for WGDC calculations then the WGDC can be modified by the ECU according to any Boost Error that is measured. We have found that the below WG Duty Boost Error Comp. table settings are a great starting point for the closed-loop boost control feedback settings. 0.04 0.02 0.02 0.00 0.00 0.00 -0.02 -0.07 -0.11 -0.16 -0.20 You can modify the settings from here if you would like to give the ECU more authority (values further from zero) to modify WGDC or less authority (values closer to zero). By zeroing out the WG Duty Load Error Comp. table, you will also smooth out the part-throttle response as well by disallowing the ECU to modify WGDC based on any load errors. Below is a sample of a 2010 MS3 WGDC table that we've found to work very well for a linear part-throttle response for boost control, you are welcome to use this as a starting point for your WGDC table: 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 100.00 100.00 100.00 40.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 100.00 100.00 100.00 44.29 25.43 24.71 24.00 23.36 22.86 22.86 24.21 25.29 26.00 26.00 26.00 100.00 100.00 100.00 48.57 30.86 29.43 28.00 26.71 25.71 25.71 28.43 30.57 32.00 32.00 32.00 100.00 100.00 100.00 52.86 36.29 34.14 32.00 30.07 28.57 28.57 32.64 35.86 38.00 38.00 38.00 100.00 100.00 100.00 57.14 41.71 38.86 36.00 33.43 31.43 31.43 36.86 41.14 44.00 44.00 44.00 100.00 100.00 100.00 61.43 47.14 43.57 40.00 36.79 34.29 34.29 41.07 46.43 50.00 50.00 50.00 100.00 100.00 100.00 65.71 52.57 48.29 44.00 40.14 37.14 37.14 45.29 51.71 56.00 56.00 56.00 100.00 100.00 100.00 70.00 58.00 53.00 48.00 43.50 40.00 40.00 49.50 57.00 62.00 62.00 62.00 100.00 100.00 100.00 70.00 58.00 53.00 48.00 43.50 40.00 40.00 49.50 57.00 62.00 62.00 62.00 100.00 100.00 100.00 70.00 58.00 53.00 48.00 43.50 40.00 40.00 49.50 57.00 62.00 62.00 62.00 100.00 100.00 100.00 70.00 58.00 53.00 48.00 43.50 40.00 40.00 49.50 57.00 62.00 62.00 62.00 100.00 100.00 100.00 70.00 58.00 53.00 48.00 43.50 40.00 40.00 49.50 57.00 62.00 62.00 62.00 100.00 100.00 100.00 70.00 58.00 53.00 48.00 43.50 40.00 40.00 49.50 57.00 62.00 62.00 62.00 These calibration settings for full bolt ons + FMIC and is designed to run 20psi, so you may want to start with lower WGDC values so that you can start moving up from there. ATTENTION TO ALL ATR USERS: When you load your current calibration with this latest ATR software, you will see that the WGDC values are double of what was in the table with the prior ATR software. Please do not install this calibration on the ECU because the ECU will run these 2X WGDC values. You will need to set your WGDC values appropriately in order to allow for proper boost control. You can easily start with 20% WGDC across the board to see how your turbo responds and tune the WGDC values from there, or you can use the driven Wastegate Duty (%) from your previous datalogs to achieve your boost targets. This more simplified version of closed-loop boost tuning should be much easier to work with. Please let us know what you think of the newly simplified boost tuning process. Take care, Christian.

[Realgib3]

Sooo where is this newest. Version of ATR?

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 Sooo where is this newest. Version of ATR?

atr>update>check beta SW box

[Realgib3]

Lol ok that was a dumb question lol. I just usually get email notifications from them when updates are available so I was surprised its been out for a week already and I didnt know.

[Dano]

Thanks Anthony! I too was waiting for an e-mail with this news.

[Abilor]

SO this WGDC percentage thing is puzzling me. Christian says that your WGDC will double from previous maps, which mine has, but also not to flash the map since the ECU will treat them as true doubles. I can reset to 20 and re-tune, but at the end of the day, will I actually be treating these as percentages? i.e. setting a WGDC of say, 90 up top instead of something like 43?

Just want some confirmation.

"or you can use the driven Wastegate Duty (%) from your previous datalogs to achieve your boost targets."

Ok, that makes sense. Interesting...

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Abilor SO this WGDC percentage thing is puzzling me. Christian says that your WGDC will double from previous maps, which mine has, but also not to flash the map since the ECU will treat them as true doubles. I can reset to 20 and re-tune, but at the end of the day, will I actually be treating these as percentages? i.e. setting a WGDC of say, 90 up top instead of something like 43? Just want some confirmation.

im pretty sure this is right, if you were previously seeing 80 on logs and you were targeting 40, your WGDC table is not gona be filled with 80's but you may not actually need that much to hit your target boost. so basically the new WGDC table is legit values and make them small and start from the beginning.

[bova]

so wait i looked at my map and yes all my values doubled in the table. so if we flash that does that mean it will double those values in the logic or it will actually use the values without doubling now?

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by bova80 so wait i looked at my map and yes all my values doubled in the table. so if we flash that does that mean it will double those values in the logic or it will actually use the values without doubling now?

the way i understood it is that it is now going to use exactly those values and theres no more need to double anything in any equation.

HOWEVER, for some reason, just because you were targeting say 80 before to hit your desired boost (and were seeing 80's on your log for WGDC), this may not still hold true. so reduce your WGDC values and start your boost tuning again just to be sure. im not 100% on this but better safe then sorry.