Dano's Boost Tuning 101 + Cool Stuff

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by fywdyl APP didn't work for me. I capped it at 50% for 2nd gear, and nothing happened. I was still hitting 19 psi. However, I'm using TRL tables now and I've had great success with that.

Was your throttle position actually being limited to 50%?

If it was then you just needed to drop that value down until you induced sufficient pressure drop across the TB to choke off flow.

I needed to drop down to ~38% to prevent spinning in 2nd.

[m4tic]

@cld12pk2go im sorry this is OT... i just "got" your screenname like right now.. i've never actually stopped to look at it






lol

[fywdyl]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Was your throttle position actually being limited to 50%? If it was then you just needed to drop that value down until you induced sufficient pressure drop across the TB to choke off flow. I needed to drop down to ~38% to prevent spinning in 2nd.

Nope, on the genpu AP, Accel. Pedal Pos. - (%) is not one of the log-able parameters and my throttle position was at 78 even after changing the APP to 50%.

[Dano]

strange indeed....that would mean the PU ECU is fairly different where DBW is concerned or Cobb hasn't exposed the correct tables.

The ECU has to translate the voltage from the pedal sensor somehow.

I have a PU tune coming up and I'll investigate.

[SRTie4k]

I was actually getting the same issue in my car. Setting my APP table 1/2 to 50% would still cause me to hit my target of 17psi. I actually just lowered it to 35-40 a couple of days ago (I forget exactly which value), and that seems to have corrected the issue for me. My car now spikes to about 13psi in 2nd.

[MattJackson86]

Yea the APP does work, I just had it set to high. I set 1st gear to 25 and I didnt make any boost. Will keep upping it, but glad to see it works.

[Nataphen]

Mine was 35 in 1st and 45 in 2nd I think. I went back to 100 in all gears because I dropped boost to 16 since it's been 110* outside. It's just starting to get under the 100* mark, even as low as the mid 80s some days. It's about time to turn the boost back up!

[fywdyl]

I just noticed that the gen1 APP tables have more resolution than the gen2 APP tables. See the attached pic for reference.

What I did was change the highlighted portion to 50% (I'm gonna try to set it lower and see what that does).

But like I said before, I'm happy with my 2nd gear TRL and it's limiting my boost quite nicely.

[SRTie4k]

Just as a warning to some of you guys, if you zero out the WG Load Error table, the new WG Table values will make you overboost pretty significantly.

I thought that the WG Table values being changed to over 2x what they were before updating ATR was the result of proper translation between the table value and actual value, but it seems as if this is not the case. I had to revert all my table values back down to their values from before the ATR update in order to hit my target of 17psi.

[m4tic]

ok what was the trick to have AFR drop a little faster.. im targeting ~12.1 - 12.2 ... when i hit it (you know 3rd gear around 3k) my AFRs hang around 13.3~13.5 but after a shift it hangs on normally.... but damn i see 2.4 calc load on there!

[Dano]

Apparently a fairly common occurrence lately.

What does your CL max throttle look like?


Tappin

[m4tic]

They are all 100%, CL max load at 1.25.. all my fuel tables start with WOT AFR a few rows up from the 1.25 row

[Dano]

strange for sure. I don't currently have an answer.

[m4tic]

Originally Posted by Dano strange for sure. I don't currently have an answer.

[Dano]

hahah

man I'd say your MAF is way lean but you come in at -9 LTFT so if anything it should be rich. That is a much longer time being off target than the others I've seen. M U C H longer


I guess having your MAF 9% too rich could be doing some screwy with fuel trims [ have you ever calibrated it or perhaps its time to clean the filter LOL]...or it could be your O2 sensor I guess but I wouldn't' go out and buy one just yet.

I would go as far as saying that is dangerous to run ~ 13.xx AF at 18 PSI for an entire run. does it do this every time?

[m4tic]

only at the start of the run... every subsequent gear change is fine

[Frequentflyer]

Well f%ck me and call me Shirley. I got back into fooling around with the AP after a long time running on one map that has served me well for 8-12 months now. I upped peak boost to 19psi last week from 18 and all of sudden of a sudden of the past day or so I get high RPM KR starting at the same RPM. I'm thinking I've got a bad injector seal. I've done everything from lower boost to retarding timing 5 degrees from 1.44/4000RPM all the way up and I still get the KR starting at the same RPM. This car has pretty much been KR free for the past 78k miles.

[martin_nj]

hey shirley, don't get your panties in a bunch just yet, you might have a bad tank of fuel...did you recently fuel up?

[Ziggo]

Can't look at the logs on my iPhone (opens them if they are small enough) but injector seal knock shows up around peak torque, not high rpm.


Zigatapatalka

[Frequentflyer]

I did fill up with Wawa gas the other day and I don't normally get Wawa gas, so maybe that's it. I'll go to a good gas station and see if it stops.

[martin_nj]

i had a similar scare and it turned out my regular Shell station fed me a bad batch ... just sharing my experience, let me know how it goes!

btw i'm closing on a place in marlton this friday =P

[Meder]

I've looked around and I know this has been answered many times but I am having trouble finding anything on the topic.


I am retuning car on boost based tune and I seem to be holding more psi than I am calling for.

I am calling for 16 and car is holding 18 perfectly in 3rd. IN 4th it grabs 16, jumps to 18 around 4500 rpm and holds. I lowered load in 3rd as my loads are all 2.0, dropped 3rd to 1.80 and i am holding 16 perfectly in 3rd but the rest of the gears are pulling 18+.

Has cobb fixed the boost/load tuning issues the 1st gen ms3s have had? Could my car be targeting load as well as boost? Is there anything I can do to have the car target only boost? Finally, could my wgdc cause an overboost and be able to hold boost(18) like that consistently?

My wgdc numbers seem pretty high and are unchanged from the ots map. I am running a stage one+intake map.

Car has intake/tip only at the moment.

[Dano]

Even with the boost toggle checked the car will still target load I'd you leave the load tables within reach.

1) move all load tables to like 3.0
2) check only the boost toggle
3) zero out WGDC load error comp
4) ensure Load dynamics is zeroed

See if your boost goes down and if not lower wgdc in the areas your are above target.

I think that should do it.


Tappin

[SRTie4k]

Also, WGDC can cause you to run too much boost if you're way over-shooting the necessary WGDC throughout the RPM range, even more so if your WGDC boost error values are too low in the over ranges or too high in the under ranges.

Doing exactly what Dane said will help, but you should also start low on WGDC values and probably zero out your WGDC boost error values. That way, you can try to get your WGDC values as close to target as possible without the ECU intervening and throwing off your numbers. Then just plug conservative WGDC boost error values back in and work from there.

[Meder]

Thanks, I just found the new tables and logic from the last release a couple of pages ago.


Would zeroing out load error comp ignore the load tables anyway? I figured i start with a wgdc of 20, but i am unsure of how high i should keep wgdc values in the low rpms and

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Meder Thanks, I just found the new tables and logic from the last release a couple of pages ago. Would zeroing out load error comp ignore the load tables anyway?

Negative.

Load targeting is built into the boost PID controller and Cobb just neutered it a lil.

It will still target load if the targets are within reach.

And you want to make the ecu add WGDC to the tbl values so they need to be low enough for wgdc BEC to add dc to reach target. Otherwise you will continue to overshoot targets.


Tappin

[SRTie4k]

Don't be afraid of overshooting slightly though. I don't believe an 18psi spike when targetting 17psi is going to harm you at all, so long as your AFR's and fuel pressure don't take a dip because of it. But boost should still level out very quickly after spiking, say 1/2 a second (arbitrary).

[Nataphen]

#1. 100% WGDC in all cells.
#2. Get BT after k04 blows.

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by Nataphen #1. 100% WGDC in all cells. #2. Get BT after k04 blows.

I like your style.


Zigatapatalka

[Meder]

Should I not zero out bec before tuning wgdc?

[irishking03]

+1 for Dano doing good work.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Meder Should I not zero out bec before tuning wgdc?

its up to you but once you understand a bit more about how WGDC gets altered by the ECU its fairly easy.

if you look at your current logged WGDC values and set your table values to 5% below them at each RPM breakpoint, that will be a good starting point.

BEC will increase DC the % associated with the boost error. And keep in mind BEC error values are in kPa. So at say -5.0 kPa [.725 PSI] it will increase table value by .02 up to the ramp limit of 10%

it will keep cycling through until the boost error is negated and target is reached.

10% is the total authority WGDC BEC has to increase DC at OTS values

I personally like 15% and I may even bump it up to 20%...BT is just too new to know how it will react to varying AMB temps.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Nataphen #1. 100% WGDC in all cells. #2. Get BT after k04 blows.

K04 don't die very easily... LOL

I am running 100% WGDC from ~4500RPMs up:

[Dano]

that is just the kind of art work this thread needs LOL.

[Meder]

Can anyone explain a bit more about bjmorris lean issues a bit further up on this page? I seem to randomly run lean (1 in 6ish logs) during or around spool up. I am lean by about .3 or .4 or so but have seen slightly leaner at times. Sometimes these hang for a bit too long and I have been unable to fix this issue over my last few map revisions.

Is this just how it is for some of us at the moment? Targeting 11.7 i sometimes see 12.1 -12.2 at most for a short time which seems to be a fairly safe afr for these motors anyway. Just trying to figure out if there is anyway i can get that old fuel curve i use to have back when we all used load turning. It was nearly dead on every run every pull.

[SRTie4k]

Originally Posted by Meder Can anyone explain a bit more about bjmorris lean issues a bit further up on this page? I seem to randomly run lean (1 in 6ish logs) during or around spool up. I am lean by about .3 or .4 or so but have seen slightly leaner at times. Sometimes these hang for a bit too long and I have been unable to fix this issue over my last few map revisions. Is this just how it is for some of us at the moment? Targeting 11.7 i sometimes see 12.1 -12.2 at most for a short time which seems to be a fairly safe afr for these motors anyway. Just trying to figure out if there is anyway i can get that old fuel curve i use to have back when we all used load turning. It was nearly dead on every run every pull.

If it's only for a split second (a sample or two), it's completely normal. What is not normal is a lean AFR that takes thousands of RPM's to settle to demanded.

One thing that can affect WOT AFR that you really want to make sure you have right is the MAF curve. An incorrect MAF curve can change your WOT tip-in AFR's drastically, and it can take a little too long to correct it if they are way off.

[Meder]

Originally Posted by SRTie4k If it's only for a split second (a sample or two), it's completely normal. What is not normal is a lean AFR that takes thousands of RPM's to settle to demanded. One thing that can affect WOT AFR that you really want to make sure you have right is the MAF curve. An incorrect MAF curve can change your WOT tip-in AFR's drastically, and it can take a little too long to correct it if they are way off.

Its tends to hold for around 1k rpm and sometimes more but isnt consistent. I am currently going to redo the maf cal and I added in some more breakpoints to hopefully make it a bit easier. I ran a boost leak test and found that my intake housing where the maf bolts down was leaking, I also found the maf o ring shredded on one side. I am unsure if this would make much of a difference in afr because I am told that the intake isnt really pressurized and it should probably not be sucking in air from those spots assuming the filter is in good working order.

Either way I am in the process of sealing the area around the maf housing on my cpe nano and I need to find a new o ring for the maf somewhere. I am going to show you guys my maf logs and adjustments to make sure I am indeed doing the maf cal right.

[MattJackson86]

@Dano, when you "move all load tables to like 3.0" do you mean ALL the load tables?

So Fuel Cut, Abs Load Targets, Max Load A/b, and all the gear tables?

We should also move them to something unobtainable right, as you say "It will still target load if the targets are within reach." so why not move them to so its well out of reach (ex. 5.0)?

[BigjohnB20]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go K04 don't die very easily... LOL

LOL,
Had to quote this. What was it, like the day before yours shit the bed that you posted this...

[Dano]

Originally Posted by MattJackson86 @Dano, when you "move all load tables to like 3.0" do you mean ALL the load tables? So Fuel Cut, Abs Load Targets, Max Load A/b, and all the gear tables? We should also move them to something unobtainable right, as you say "It will still target load if the targets are within reach." so why not move them to so its well out of reach (ex. 5.0)?

not fuel cut as that is a "limiter/safety" table..but AFAIK nobody has hit 3.0 load yet so it is far enough to be out of reach...but I see no reason not to set it to 4 or 5.

The ECU will target the lowest valued load tables so if you were to only move the TRL xgear tables up yet left ABS and TRL A-C at 2.5 and can reach 2.5 that table would be active.

unless you are running a giant turbo with PI I doubt you'll hit 3.0 load lol