Dano's Boost Tuning 101 + Cool Stuff

[Dano]

not sure about per cyl but I just copy my OL/HT ign table over my limit table. I still hit target timing and its way higher than OTS.

Seems to work.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Yes, I am running a M7 nozzle with straight meth. My exhaust backpressure has to be insane with the stock turbo and stock TBE, which will certainly limit my timing advance potential. I think my current timing is pretty close to optimized. I have added a good 3° or so up top since raising the KR threshold to 6700 RPMs. Here is my most recent good log to redline: In this case I sustained a pretty high load up top since the ambient temp was low. Mid 290 g/s isn't anything to sneeze at from the stocker (especially since it is really more than that since I am spraying so much meth and still hit my targeted AFR)... I used to peak at 22 PSI around 3500-4500 RPMs, but my stock clutch won't take that in the cold so I am now targeting 18PSI until I can get my ACT installed (evidently the stock clutch doesn't respond well to loads > 2.3).

The airflow values are definitely nothing to sneeze at. How were the g/s affected as you added timing and by how much?

Also the ACT might not be the best clutch from what people here have experienced.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Lex Also the ACT might not be the best clutch from what people here have experienced.

shhhhhh....I don't want mine to hear the rumors...I will blow my top if my brand new clutch takes a dump....LOL


I have about 6K on it so far but its winter so not much hammering nor heat buildup yet...FML

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Lex The airflow values are definitely nothing to sneeze at. How were the g/s affected as you added timing and by how much? Also the ACT might not be the best clutch from what people here have experienced.

I did not notice any significant g/s change when adding timing. Ambient temp changes completely muddle any small changes due to timing.

While we are on the topic, the only reason I can imagine g/s would increase when timing is increasing would be due to a reduction in exhaust back pressure due to extracting more heat from the exhaust during the power stroke. Is there some other mechanism at play?

What exactly are the issues with the ACT clutch? I didn't see any mentioned when researching. I got the full face organic disk material (most tame) if that is relevant to the issues.

[Boosted Beluga]

My pressure plate broke after 10k miles. 2 teeth broke off but they replaced it under warranty.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go What exactly are the issues with the ACT clutch? I didn't see any mentioned when researching. I got the full face organic disk material (most tame) if that is relevant to the issues.

Lenny's went out after 10 or so runs down the strip, same with another member. They both had the street kit and they both were drag racing with them. This happened on the supposedly newer batch of kits. ACT had a run of bad PP about a year ago and it was supposedly fixed. ACT appears to warranty them but shit, you have to pull the tranny again, send them the parts THEN they determine the cause and send you replacements.

thats about all I know.

[djuosnteisn]

Also, i would think if the timing advancement improved piston acceleration, you could see some gains in airflow from improved vacuum on the intaking cylinders... not sure. Superskater said his g/s increased quite a bit when advancing timing.

I wouldn't have expected it... but who knows.

[Lex]

I am a little perplexed about this since super did say he saw more g/s. However, g/s represent flow and I don't see flow changing much with timing. However, g/s is also representative of a hp curve which would be affected by timing.

However, timing DOES affect AFR. So it affects burn, cylinder filling/emptying, efficiency in general which may result in better cylinder emptying and filling, exhaust volume, temperature, velocities ... it gets pretty complicated. This is why I wanted to see what people saw first hand.

Still wet here and can't do a proper 4th gear pull but I was generally seeing ~26x g/s at 17-18psi and all I changed was timing. The car is definitely more willing.

[Dano]

Lots of good information coming out here.....I need to talk Lenny into changing the thread title to something more general like "Dano's Boost Tuning 101, etc" LOL

we have covered:

Load based tuning [touched]
boost based tuning
CL/OL transition tuning
AFR tuning
timing

did I miss anything?

so basically a pretty comprehensive 101 class and maybe even some 201 stuff....

I also want to give a big thanks to all of you for your contributions to this thread!

Give yourselves a big round of applause

[SRTie4k]

Is there any room for increasing timing on a non WMI car? I can't imagine very far if any at all, but just curious if its feasible.

[BlueStreak]

Is there a guide somewhere that states the order in which to tune each parameter for optimal performance?

My guess is the following (for WOT tuning):
- Increase fuel and decrease timing for safety purposes.
- Dial in boost targets.
- Set fuel pressure targets and adjust fuel mix to reach desired AFRs across the rev range.
- Increase timing to desired (safe levels) while monitoring changes in AFRs.
- Done.

[SRTie4k]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak Is there a guide somewhere that states the order in which to tune each parameter for optimal performance? My guess is the following (for WOT tuning): - Increase fuel and decrease timing for safety purposes. - Dial in boost targets. - Set fuel pressure targets and adjust fuel mix to reach desired AFRs across the rev range. - Increase timing to desired (safe levels) while monitoring changes in AFRs. - Done.

There's no need to decrease stock timing.

[Speed3eak]

Originally Posted by SRTie4k There's no need to decrease stock timing.

Not for gen 1

For gen 2 cobb decreased timing for the OTS maps though

Stock gen 2 timing is pretty aggressive

[djuosnteisn]

Where's the CL / OL stuff? I wanna read through that.

I know the delays control both the transition delya into OL, and out of OL.... but i don't know which is which, so i just set both values real low.

Ideally, i'd leave the transition delay returning to CL from OL at a fairly large number, to avoid reverting to CL during shifts... and make the delay for entering OL very short.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak Not for gen 1 For gen 2 cobb decreased timing for the OTS maps though Stock gen 2 timing is pretty aggressive

Then gen 1 (at least) is very knock happy around 5-5.5k RPM on the stock tune. The COBB maps all pull timing in that region.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Where's the CL / OL stuff? I wanna read through that. I know the delays control both the transition delya into OL, and out of OL.... but i don't know which is which, so i just set both values real low. Ideally, i'd leave the transition delay returning to CL from OL at a fairly large number, to avoid reverting to CL during shifts... and make the delay for entering OL very short.

its just the stuff I used when fighting the load cap that you suggested at that time. ya know CL Max Load D to 1.25 across the board in the CL RPM range up to 4500, negate any throttle input with CL Max Throttle to 100 and 15-40-40 on the exit delays but I don't think we know which is which, right A, B and C?

I believe by setting the throttle to 100 and having your CL load at 1.25 you will not revert to CL between shifts unless maybe you shift like grandma

I haven't logged multi gear pulls in so long thought but IIRC I didn't revert to CL

Originally Posted by Lex Then gen 1 (at least) is very knock happy around 5-5.5k RPM on the stock tune. The COBB maps all pull timing in that region.

^^^^^^ this!

when I push timing, KR first rears its head at 5K then disappears for the most part the rest of a run, even with KR enabled to 7k

[cld12pk2go]

Here is another pull from today. It was warmer outside and I lifted a little too early...

But 14° at 6300 RPMs...

[djuosnteisn]

Looks about perfect for what i like to see.

[Lex]

Did a few pulls yesterday ... noted about a 4 g/s change with the timing change ... nothing to even note really as it could have been caused by a number of factors.

[Dano]

N I C E !

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Here is another pull from today. It was warmer outside and I lifted a little too early... But 14° at 6300 RPMs...

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Lex Did a few pulls yesterday ... noted about a 4 g/s change with the timing change ... nothing to even note really as it could have been caused by a number of factors.

The proper way to add timing is to multiply the maf curve by 10%, then pull your OL fuel by 10%..... and then add 1 degree.


That's the secret to power Lex

[Dano]

what??

gtfo with that bs hahaha

add 10% MAF then remove 10% fuel = no change in fueling

then add timing...is that how a SB works? hahahah

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by Lex Did a few pulls yesterday ... noted about a 4 g/s change with the timing change ... nothing to even note really as it could have been caused by a number of factors.

4g/s could very well be weather related. did you say you regularly pull 26x g/s? That seems quite low...

when Christian was dyno-tuning my car, he told me afterwards that my air filter was really dirty...I was pulling 268 g/s on the dyno. then again, I've always pulled way more than that on the street...about 10% more.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 what?? gtfo with that bs hahaha add 10% MAF then remove 10% fuel = no change in fueling then add timing...is that how a SB works? hahahah

Lolol, it was a joke to get the g/s up you meatball. Total slapstick haha.

"my car is flowing 500 g/s"
"yeah, but your target afrs are 19:1"

[Dano]

yup...and that's how Driver get's his high g/s numbers LOL maf scaling FTW

[djuosnteisn]

I know joel is up to about low 400's...........
















... funny part is his afr's aren't far from his target

[Dano]

well I could add 30% to my maf and get 400 g/s and match my AFR target no problem.












but my afr target would no longer be 11.9 LOL

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Fobio 4g/s could very well be weather related. did you say you regularly pull 26x g/s? That seems quite low... when Christian was dyno-tuning my car, he told me afterwards that my air filter was really dirty...I was pulling 268 g/s on the dyno. then again, I've always pulled way more than that on the street...about 10% more.

That's about what I see on the street at around 8 degrees ambient. By that point I'm pretty high in the RPM curve and I see 17 dropping to 16psi. Will have to do a proper log one of these days.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I know joel is up to about low 400's...........

Joel? The internetz don't compute real names.

[Dano]

I think he means jwilkins88 AKA "tranny man"

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...d-share-71928/

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by Lex That's about what I see on the street at around 8 degrees ambient. By that point I'm pretty high in the RPM curve and I see 17 dropping to 16psi. Will have to do a proper log one of these days.

to be honest, we've been logging in Toronto w/ +5 to -25*C...I wonder if that's why we get such elevated g/s on the street vs. on the dyno.

the tuners' said my turbo's kinda beat. I don't really know what that means nor did I dig further (like details as to what's likely failing)...but obviously the car can use a new turbo, and because of this, Christian said that my car's "maxed out"...so as much as I'd like to try things out, I'm wondering, since Christian already optimized my timing, whether it's worth it to play with timing anymore.

however, the meth is going in next week...and I'm torn whether to tune for it or not, or whether I can go like halfway with the aggressive timing.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Fobio to be honest, we've been logging in Toronto w/ +5 to -25*C...I wonder if that's why we get such elevated g/s on the street vs. on the dyno. the tuners' said my turbo's kinda beat. I don't really know what that means nor did I dig further (like details as to what's likely failing)...but obviously the car can use a new turbo, and because of this, Christian said that my car's "maxed out"...so as much as I'd like to try things out, I'm wondering, since Christian already optimized my timing, whether it's worth it to play with timing anymore. however, the meth is going in next week...and I'm torn whether to tune for it or not, or whether I can go like halfway with the aggressive timing.

The stock K04 is only rated for ~34 lbs/min at 25°C ambient; however, when it is -10°C I have pushed close to 40 lbs/min through mine....

So yes, the flow on maxed out turbos varies greatly with ambient temp.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Fobio to be honest, we've been logging in Toronto w/ +5 to -25*C...I wonder if that's why we get such elevated g/s on the street vs. on the dyno. the tuners' said my turbo's kinda beat. I don't really know what that means nor did I dig further (like details as to what's likely failing)...but obviously the car can use a new turbo, and because of this, Christian said that my car's "maxed out"...so as much as I'd like to try things out, I'm wondering, since Christian already optimized my timing, whether it's worth it to play with timing anymore. however, the meth is going in next week...and I'm torn whether to tune for it or not, or whether I can go like halfway with the aggressive timing.

I would guess that Christian put a conservative timing curve in the map as per Cobb's policy. If so, there is room for more timing and still be safe. Add WMI to the mix and even more timing can be had.

Keep in mind if you tune your timing at -25* when it is 80-90* it might be too much, all other things being equal, so you will want to monitor KR.

engine running inside a deep freeze would have cooler cylinder temps I would think LOL

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Fobio to be honest, we've been logging in Toronto w/ +5 to -25*C...I wonder if that's why we get such elevated g/s on the street vs. on the dyno. the tuners' said my turbo's kinda beat. I don't really know what that means nor did I dig further (like details as to what's likely failing)...but obviously the car can use a new turbo, and because of this, Christian said that my car's "maxed out"...so as much as I'd like to try things out, I'm wondering, since Christian already optimized my timing, whether it's worth it to play with timing anymore. however, the meth is going in next week...and I'm torn whether to tune for it or not, or whether I can go like halfway with the aggressive timing.

The ambient temps make a big difference as everyone said. Yesterday I did a pull in 3rd with boost a hair under 17psi near redline and saw 270 g/s at 7 degrees ambient temp. The west coast is warmer

How many Km on your car?

[amoosenamedhank]

Also if your turbo is out of steam... it could be better suited to make your power of more timing than more boost. I'm guessing with the WMI installed you will get your BATs down further and have more cushion to push some more timing through it.

[djuosnteisn]

I've seen k04's die. A local can't hold more than 13-14 at redline. And Triplejumper's turbo is looking aged as well (possible boost / exh leak, but not sure).

They just weren't sized for the abuse we put em through.

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by Lex The ambient temps make a big difference as everyone said. Yesterday I did a pull in 3rd with boost a hair under 17psi near redline and saw 270 g/s at 7 degrees ambient temp. The west coast is warmer How many Km on your car?

Ok...that's good to know, maybe not for ego, but knowing the truth helps, esp for extrapolating whp and comparison. My car has 92,000km on it.

Originally Posted by amoosenamedhank Also if your turbo is out of steam... it could be better suited to make your power of more timing than more boost. I'm guessing with the WMI installed you will get your BATs down further and have more cushion to push some more timing through it.

that's what I want to know. I was worried that pushing timing with a beat turbo would be bad.

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go The stock K04 is only rated for ~34 lbs/min at 25°C ambient; however, when it is -10°C I have pushed close to 40 lbs/min through mine.... So yes, the flow on maxed out turbos varies greatly with ambient temp.

yes, those are some of the figures we were throwing around on MSN for discussion, and it sounds so bad ass! I wanted to point out on your log that your g/s on the legend says /20, as in right hand y-axis/20? or are you using the left hand y-axis but *20 instead?

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Fobio I wanted to point out on your log that your g/s on the legend says /20, as in right hand y-axis/20? or are you using the left hand y-axis but *20 instead?

The g/s /20 is against the left hand axis, so if I had 280 g/s and divide by 20 then the chart shows 14.

Looks like my left y-axis units were out of synch with what I am currently logging.

I will correct these issues in my future charts.

The only items on the right y-axis are engine RPM and DI pressure.

[djuosnteisn]

GET YOUR FUCKING SHIT TOGETHER 12PACK

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn GET YOUR FUCKING SHIT TOGETHER 12PACK

Need beer...

[amoosenamedhank]

Oh sweet jesus I just realized what your sn was....