MazdaSpeed 2.3L DISI Turbo Blown Engine Resource Thread

[kwsmithphoto]

That's still a lot of work, time, and expense, so I feel for you. But look at it this way: you might get wind up with a better motor in the end if you discover the core of the problem!

BTW, do you have a windage or baffle tray in your oil pan? I'm not an engine guy but there seems to be some consistency in the same cylinder tossing the piston and lunging the rod out of the block. Couldn't that be a lubrication issue? If it was a build quality issue, I would expect less of a pattern. It's interesting that virtually all of the reports here point to the same basic failure mode, modified or not; they almost always let go in normal driving, not very often at WOT, and it almost always seems to be the #1 cylinder.

Point being, there MIGHT be an issue with the #1 cylinder not getting enough lube under full load so it wears faster (which should show up in UOA's). Then some freaky combo of relatively low RPM, and a corresponding lack of oil pressure, combined with some ECU weirdness under light throttle, conspires to stress an already weakened part to the breaking point.

Just a guess, anyway. I really don't know, but a pattern is a pattern.

As for the warranty, well I doubt you'd have gotten any love even 6 months ago. There's only so much a dealer hookup can do for you. Major repairs like this need to be approved by the factory zone rep, and they're the ones who are looking for any excuse to save corporate money on warranty reimbursements to a dealer.

Anyway, good luck, let us know how things progress.

[cld12pk2go]

Did you have any increased engine noise prior to the failure?

Many people experience this when they bend a rod under high load, which causes large imbalance that manifest itself as lots more engine noise. This usually leads to the rod failing and exiting the block during normal driving.

[Betelgeuse]

I still think there are a certain number of engines that are just defective (knock on wood). I'm not buying into the whole ' you have to shift before X rpms' or 'it's a partial boost' issue etc. Now with increased mods, I do agree one has to pay more attention to what's going on but for many who just have basic bolt-ons, it shouldn't be an issue.

I'm about to hit 50k, learned to drive stick on it, and have driven it every which way, and the engine just purrs like the day I bought it (knock on wood - harder this time ).

I usually shift between 3000-4000 rpms and and rev the hell out of it at least 5 times a day to, during and from work. Yeah, I'm almost stock, but the story I'm hearing is even close to the stock motors are blowing. I think mods will increase the likelihood of an already defective motor blowing much sooner. Just my 2 cents.

[mouse0330]

Originally Posted by Betelgeuse I still think there are a certain number of engines that are just defective (knock on wood). I'm not buying into the whole ' you have to shift before X rpms' or 'it's a partial boost' issue etc. Now with increased mods, I do agree one has to pay more attention to what's going on but for many who just have basic bolt-ons, it shouldn't be an issue. I'm about to hit 50k, learned to drive stick on it, and have driven it every which way, and the engine just purrs like the day I bought it (knock on wood - harder this time ). I usually shift between 3000-4000 rpms and and rev the hell out of it at least 5 times a day to, during and from work. Yeah, I'm almost stock, but the story I'm hearing is even close to the stock motors are blowing. I think mods will increase the likelihood of an already defective motor blowing much sooner. Just my 2 cents.

I agree with you, I have over 51k now, and just add tmic and inlet, I shift when I feel like it, so no certain pattern, but between 2500 to 6k rpm...I tried over 6500 a few times to see how the car response...
I do worry about the said blown engine thread like this here...and people started to come out of the woodwork with blown engine.....lately my right foot is getting heavy with the gas pedal after the tmic and inlet install...so I try to enjoy my car without worrying about blown engine....I do hope we figure out though .....I hope that is just some bad apple....

[MZRDISI4]

My engine is blowing. I just know it. I read it on the internets that someones engine did!

[JerseySpeed]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Did you have any increased engine noise prior to the failure? Many people experience this when they bend a rod under high load, which causes large imbalance that manifest itself as lots more engine noise. This usually leads to the rod failing and exiting the block during normal driving.

Slight noise a day or 2 prior but to mee sounded like the HP fuel pump ticking. No Knock detected on dashawk. Fluids, AFR, EGT all good.

Once i heared the ticking noise i started to become anal about paying attention to parameters and gauges. No negative detection whatsoever

[lidokrantz]

stock cars are not popping...99.9% have mods on them....and i agree that shifting anywhere in the rpm zone up to 6000 should not be a issue.....but i have taken the position of not playing around too much in the 3000 rpm area going into boost....i boost or i do not, and i shift by 6000 max as Mouse mentioned.....the car was designed to run out of breath there, why push it past the K04 power curve, plus the throttle closes...and indeed members with 50,000 plus miles on stock or lightly moded cars have been fine.. Lastly, i do believe that Jersey's car has great parts on it and a fine safe tune, but something with the full combination of all this with added boost has put the motor in distress...would it of blown if the car was running stock boost, and stock tune??? Hopefully we will find out soon, so others can be prepared and avoid this type of issue...

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by JerseySpeed Slight noise a day or 2 prior but to mee sounded like the HP fuel pump ticking. No Knock detected on dashawk. Fluids, AFR, EGT all good. Once i heared the ticking noise i started to become anal about paying attention to parameters and gauges. No negative detection whatsoever

Many cars have had a very similar ticking to what you described prior to getting a hole in the block. The one guy that pulled his engine apart in time found a bent rod.

This is likely what your ticking was.

[Darksun280]

My car makes all types of nosies. even if I got a bent rod I'd never be able to hear it.

[MadOzodi]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 My car makes all types of nosies. even if I got a bent rod I'd never be able to hear it.

Nope, you sure wouldn't. But apparently you'll definitely be able to feel it through the clutch pedal.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by MadOzodi Nope, you sure wouldn't. But apparently you'll definitely be able to feel it through the clutch pedal.

Yeah your right. My days are numbered though I'm just waiting for the bent rod daemon to come claim me. Would be the perfect end to my MS3 career.

[y2kc0wb0y]

I'd like to add that if you blow a MZR DISI engine is probably a minimum of $2500.00 for a use long block...If you plan to mod heavy allow me to suggest building it with forged parts.

[SSinstaller]

Damn! If someone offered me $2500 for my used longblock I'd sell it tomorrrow. It was running perfectly when it was pulled at only 22K miles..

[ms3guy22]

i'll trade you my built motor plus your stocker and 750.00... We each pay freight

[TurboGhost]

Originally Posted by bf360 so you were part throttle boosting in the worst rpm area to do it now i know why you blew

I'm no wizard, but that sounds like voodoo. For the engine to worse off under part load than full for a mechanical failure unless there is severe detonation sounds like belief in magic. I don't know for a fact what is going on with these failures during part load, but here's a conjecture:

The initial failure point is a piston or rod (pretty safe bet!)
The failure starts with a bend in a rod or a crack partway through a piston, most likely while at full load.
Either will fail completely, matter of time.
SO...
90+% of driving time is spent in moderate throttle, medium rpm. The zombie parts are going to fail, they need only a certain amount of normal usage to do so as the crack propagates (piston) or the bent rod mayhem unfolds. Now when part has worked itself close to failing with via *any* kind of driving after the fatal injury, a slight extra load will hasten its death.

So, you're just driving along and don't realize you're actually on a dead engine. Then you reach a hill, go up an on-ramp or whatever and boom it finally lets go. You might think the last thing you did killed it, when in fact it was already shot, bleeding and just waiting to die.

That's only an edumacated guess but I think it's more likely than there being a Bermuda triangle of modest rpm and boost that magically kills healthy engines.

[bf360]

theres no bermuda triangle lmao
its known that boosting around 3-4 the ecu has a tendency to stay in closed loop and run really lean which can easily blow a motor at only 5 psi

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by bf360 theres no bermuda triangle lmao its known that boosting around 3-4 the ecu has a tendency to stay in closed loop and run really lean which can easily blow a motor at only 5 psi

I think you mean open loop, but yes this is the issue.


I am ~13.5:1 in open loop under boost and quickly drop to ~11-12:1 in closed loop.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by ms3guy22 i'll trade you my built motor plus your stocker and 750.00... We each pay freight

If I didn't already have a built motor that would be tempting... Unless someone has cash in hand, I'll just wait around until DCR comes up with something big and then send it to them to build using thier stuff.

[badams118]

Originally Posted by TurboGhost I'm no wizard, but that sounds like voodoo. For the engine to worse off under part load than full for a mechanical failure unless there is severe detonation sounds like belief in magic.

Dude, look at all the blown engines. How many were at part throttle & how many were at WOT redline or some shit? Instead of calling it voodoo, maybe we should spend a little more time figuring out why. The entire CPU is fucking voodoo. It's not reading chicken entrails, its seeing people time after time blow at part throttle in open loop. Paying attention to the facts isn't superstition, it's called using your brain.

[bf360]

Originally Posted by badams118 Dude, look at all the blown engines. How many were at part throttle & how many were at WOT redline or some shit? Instead of calling it voodoo, maybe we should spend a little more time figuring out why. The entire CPU is fucking voodoo. It's not reading chicken entrails, its seeing people time after time blow at part throttle in open loop. Paying attention to the facts isn't superstition, it's called using your brain.

i honestly dont know of one blown engine at wot in the cars power band honestly

[TurboGhost]

Originally Posted by badams118 Dude, look at all the blown engines. How many were at part throttle & how many were at WOT redline or some shit? Instead of calling it voodoo, maybe we should spend a little more time figuring out why. The entire CPU is fucking voodoo. It's not reading chicken entrails, its seeing people time after time blow at part throttle in open loop. Paying attention to the facts isn't superstition, it's called using your brain.

You gotta point, and combined with the lean spot bf360 pointed out I'm starting to be convinced. But you'd think more people would hear it if there is detonation severe enough to break things? It would have to be so severe that KR can't pull timing fast enough.


"its known that boosting around 3-4 the ecu has a tendency to stay in closed loop and run really lean which can easily blow a motor at only 5 psi "

-- Agreed. Detonation is a gravedigger and 5psi is a non-trivial load, it's more than WOT on a non-turbo engine.

Question: if you hit the pedal a bit more does that get it out of the danger area? I drive pretty moderately, but it's an MS6 and it goes into boost just pulling its weight around. I'm wondering if taking it easy with moderate throttle and rpm is actually riskier than WOT? I always use 93 and have never heard knock.

Edit: I hadn't seen this before
"i honestly dont know of one blown engine at wot in the cars power band honestly "

*That* points to the problem being the ECU programming, which means it can be fixed with a reflash.

[bf360]

i hate part throttle boosting, i always try to drive around in as much vacum as possible and if i need to i downshift instead of boost, going wot is a lot safer than part throttle boosting

[cld12pk2go]

My plan is to install an alkycontrol meth kit activating on a MAF voltage of ~2.8 and above.

This will richen up the AFR in open loop and greatly reduce any chance of detonation...

[lidokrantz]

Originally Posted by bf360 i hate part throttle boosting, i always try to drive around in as much vacum as possible and if i need to i downshift instead of boost, going wot is a lot safer than part throttle boosting

EXACTLY.... I SHOULD SAY IT AGAIN EXACTLY. Drive in vacuum or hit it in boost, no middle ground.... and IMO downshift instead of going hard on it in 5th or 6th from vacuum to boost...lugging sucks.
this simple boost gauge has kept me out of trouble and this issue is not a issue for me at all...this one is easily fixed thru correct shifting...so now the issue to be found is what else is happening to make our cars from popping....moded ones that is..LOL

[fbpem1]

this punny dick little turbo sucks for keeping out of boost big turbo ftw.

by the way i do not obey those rules at all...25.5k and going strong with great leak down, compression, and i scoped the motor and its fan fucking tastic.

[DaleNixon]

Go WOT or baby the shit out of it? No middle ground? That sucks!

[Lex]

Like I said before, think about this for a while. Do you think that this motor was only calibrated to run in vacuum or full boost? You think there was no part throttle "boosting" as part of the testing? You think a bunch of people with dashhawks have better instrumentation and knowledge about what is going on than the people that designed, calibrated, and tested the drivetrain?

This smells like another forum myth spreading through the internetz.

[fbpem1]

i'll tell you this, i don't trust anything generic to read proper sensor values IMO if you want testing done it needs to be data streamed in real time from factory equipment, that the car was made to work with.

Fuck generic shit, only time you get PROPER readings out of a generic tool would be your 6 and 7 thousand dollar machines or something comperable to factory equipment like the MODIS. that said i refuse the dashhawk never owned one never will.

[lidokrantz]

Originally Posted by DaleNixon Go WOT or baby the shit out of it? No middle ground? That sucks!

not saying to go WOT...just saying to go more than hoovering in that area at part throttle...i very seldom go WOT FYI...i drive most of the time at way below WOT, but i do not pussy foot around the boost/vacuum line if i can help it.

as fpb mentioned, he has no issues at all with any of this open/closed loop issue so maybe this is all paranoia...but i drive conservatively and correct enough that i have never had a blow n engine in 30 years of driving.....and again going WOT all the time is not something i do...i probably drive car more conservativley than 99% of this forums members..ohla

[802MS3]

Originally Posted by fbpem1 i'll tell you this, i don't trust anything generic to read proper sensor values IMO if you want testing done it needs to be data streamed in real time from factory equipment, that the car was made to work with. Fuck generic shit, only time you get PROPER readings out of a generic tool would be your 6 and 7 thousand dollar machines or something comperable to factory equipment like the MODIS. that said i refuse the dashhawk never owned one never will.

but the dashhawk reads the factory sensors? its the same thing the ECU is reading...

[fbpem1]

oh don't get me wrong i have blown engines before, but th eones i did i shoved 35-36psi through a huge turbo through and i knew it was coming.

In my opinion this is mass hysteria but there may be something to it, with the way the EGR purges, and how it does, IMO if you drive part throttle boost OVER 1/4 throttle your fine, because then the egr does not purge at all, if your 1/4 or under it does, and thats where i see people blowing, once they get out of that, it goes back and spikes lean becuase its missing that inhert gas that was being injected from the EGR. and the ecm can't compensate enough for it.

Thats only a theory, that was tested using mazda's datalogging equipment just so you know. the numbers i know this car does i use factory stuff becuase as i said i don't trust generics.

As for the closed/open loop thing i dont' think its that, its just what the egr is doing, and when you have all that extra breathing mods on the car it could happen hell we are all operating outside of the factory ecm specs.

i have a block off plate sitting here i keep neglecting to put on i should probably do that.

[fbpem1]

Originally Posted by opt_ms3 but the dashhawk reads the factory sensors? its the same thing the ECU is reading...

no generic OBDII tool reads just like the factory, as it dosn't know everything the ECM is doing, the factory tool comes up with numbers differently and takes sensor values from other places.

heres a good example not a mazda but still, on a nissan quest with an adjustable TPS sensor, the correct reading is in the TCM not the ECM, the factory tool will give it to you, but a generic will not.

thats why they are generics they don't do even 1/4 of the shit a factory tool does.

[802MS3]

so it appears that getting rid of the EGR is the next mod for me

[DaleNixon]

Originally Posted by lidokrantz i very seldom go WOT FYI...i drive most of the time at way below WOT, but i do not pussy foot around the boost/vacuum line if i can help it.

Can you explain this further? I'm just looking for some info on the proper way to drive this car. Are you saying when the car is transitioning from vacuum to boost, you shouldn't be giving it less than, say, 1/2 throttle?

[bf360]

Originally Posted by DaleNixon Can you explain this further? I'm just looking for some info on the proper way to drive this car. Are you saying when the car is transitioning from vacuum to boost, you shouldn't be giving it less than, say, 1/2 throttle?

honestly it really is speculation, but until someone blows this motor at full throttle in the powerband, and people keep poping this motor in that dam 3-4mark and part throttle boosting, my speculation is as acurate as you can get for now

Nixon i would say try to drive out of boost, it uses less gas and is a lot safer than risking it, if you need to downshift, if your around the 3k mark i am usually going to go wot just because i dont drive anywhere in the middle like most people

[Betelgeuse]

Originally Posted by TurboGhost I'm no wizard, but that sounds like voodoo. For the engine to worse off under part load than full for a mechanical failure unless there is severe detonation sounds like belief in magic. I don't know for a fact what is going on with these failures during part load, but here's a conjecture: The initial failure point is a piston or rod (pretty safe bet!) The failure starts with a bend in a rod or a crack partway through a piston, most likely while at full load. Either will fail completely, matter of time. SO... 90+% of driving time is spent in moderate throttle, medium rpm. The zombie parts are going to fail, they need only a certain amount of normal usage to do so as the crack propagates (piston) or the bent rod mayhem unfolds. Now when part has worked itself close to failing with via *any* kind of driving after the fatal injury, a slight extra load will hasten its death. So, you're just driving along and don't realize you're actually on a dead engine. Then you reach a hill, go up an on-ramp or whatever and boom it finally lets go. You might think the last thing you did killed it, when in fact it was already shot, bleeding and just waiting to die. That's only an edumacated guess but I think it's more likely than there being a Bermuda triangle of modest rpm and boost that magically kills healthy engines.

+1


Other than some engines just being defective, this ^^^ seems to be the most plausible explanation for the bent rod induced failures IMO. I can guarantee that the majority of folks drive in that middle ground. If that was the cause, we'd hear of a lot more blown engines.

[Superstretch18]

Alright, so since we're armchair quarterbacking, here's my .02 cents on WTF is going.

To me, it seems like there are two separate incidents in just about every blown engine case:

- bent rod event
- rod through the block event

Bent Rod Event:
The fact that rods are bending at all should point to some off-axis compression force. But how would an engine see ANY off-axis pressure? The most likely answer is the balance shaft, so that's what I'm going to go with. The past couple of blown engines have happened because of a severe overboost (35+ psi). In those cases, my hypothesis is that the BS is binding causing some deflexion in the cranshaft. = bent rod, vibrations through the clutch, metal knocking, etc., etc. It seems like that could happen at high rpms or any other high load situation as well.

That alone, however, does not grenade the motor, until...

Rod Through the Block Event:
The question that everyone should be asking is; why doesn't the event that bends the rod blow the motor? The answer is that even at high psi and high rpms, normal combustion is not the greatest force that an engine can see. Detonation is much more destructive. Depending on where in the compression stroke the detonation occurs, you can be talking about exponentially higher forces than under normal combustion. Even with the overactive knock sensor on our cars, the engine does still need to experience detonation before it can retard timing; no matter how quickly it does react. It seems like engines with straight rods can withstand those pressures fairly well, but it makes sense that a bent rod likely couldn't. Throw in the fact that the "bent rod engines" seem to be blowing in the same rpm range where just about everyone is experiencing random knocking and it seems pretty clear that is the catalyst that puts a rod through the block.
[/speculation]

Just my .02 cents; take it with a grain of salt as I've never personally looked inside the motor yet (blown or otherwise)...

[DaleNixon]

So loading up the engine at low RPMs is bad. I've taken this and translated it into never loading up the engine hard below 3k in 5th or 6th. Even then, I don't mash the pedal to accelerate. WOT in 5th or 6th is for top speed runs I guess. Too bad the car magazines always brag about how there's no need to downshift to get power in this car. Everyone who reads that and buys an MS3 will be destroying their engine.

Edit: We should ask Cobb how they daily drive their MS3. It's seen a shitload of abuse and is still rock solid according to their blog.

[Darksun280]

Everything is supposedly bad. Theres no exact way to do things. You drive the car the way you drive it. If it blows you were doing something wrong if it doesn't blow you were doing something right. Or trade it in and you won't have to find out the answer either way.

[DaleNixon]

Fuck it. I love this car. I'll drive it til it pops and hope I'm doing things right!