Had enough of the ST manifold teasing?

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 An engine can only make as much power as its weakest cylinder. The cylinder which receives the least amount of air will ultimately determine the total output of the entire engine. Without one of each sensor for each cylinder there is no way around this issue. So by evening out the flow across the cylinders, you are making the engine work less hard to make the same amount of power, which improves longevity of the engine. Not only that but for those shooting for high power, it means they won't have a peg leg cylinder holding them back.

or preventing one cylinder from running lean the entire time which leads to deto, broken ringlands, excessive wear, etc.

The hotter your tune, sans Meth or E, the more likely you will loose a cylinder, over time of course, not typically an immediate result.

There's a reason FoMoCo went away from our shitty IM design

in OEM form it's ok but when you take a package meant for 260ish HP and double or triple it, things are going to give.

[monkey.bones.007]

I'll drop this little gem of retardation right here. This >http://www.focusst.org/forum/focus-s...-manifold.html is why our forum is so much better.

tapatalk, it sucks

[Gerbilo]

Originally Posted by monkey.bones.007 I'll drop this little gem of retardation right here. This >Aftermarket intake manifold? is why our forum is so much better.

I am talking to a friend, who owns a FoST, right now about this DM conversion. He's mentioned how the ST forum is full of idiots. I'm pretty sure he thinks everyone on MSF is insane in a different way, though.

[WetzMS3]

Originally Posted by Gerbilo I am talking to a friend, who owns a FoST, right now about this DM conversion. He's mentioned how the ST forum is full of idiots. I'm pretty sure he thinks everyone on MSF is insane in a different way, though.

We are insane. And enjoy handies. Is that a bad thing?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Gerbilo]

Originally Posted by WetzMS3 We are insane. And enjoy handies. Is that a bad thing?

Not one bit.

He's just been dealing with a lot of shit with Ford. I might post up the story in the Ecoboost section. Long story short, Ford is buying his '15 FoST back and giving him a '16 because he's had so many issues on a bone stock car. It seems to be ECU related and not IM, so that's a plus for us.

Anyway, I'll let this thread get back on track. Glad to see innovation continue on our platform.

[macdiesel]

More badassery from Damond Motorsports. Thanks guys! And I second a TMIC option.

[monkey.bones.007]

I'm also in for a tmic option. Even if I have to figure it out myself.

tapatalk, it sucks

[impossible]

When the cold pipe solution is offered I will definitely be willing to make the leap. Got my first DM products coming in the mail today, can't wait for you guys to release this!

EDIT: Forgot I bought the badass TMM from you guys already months ago lolol

[KiwiFlavor]

Originally Posted by monkey.bones.007 I'm also in for a tmic option. Even if I have to figure it out myself. tapatalk, it sucks

Then you're gonna have to tell me what u do to make it fit

[ericrapp0507@gmail.com]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 For those interested here are a couple shots of the mani in my car.

I don't need one and i am pretty stoked about this product. Thanks for the pics !!

[ericrapp0507@gmail.com]

Originally Posted by broda I'm not sure if it would be worth it from a power point of view, but for maybe like $200-300 you have peace of mind knowing that your cylinders are all running relatively the same with the flow rather than how our stock manifolds flow.

This is truly a great point. even balanced flow is important coming in and exiting. no hot spots
All cylinders should be treated equally !!
More flow is even better

[aackthpt]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 An engine can only make as much power as its weakest cylinder. The cylinder which receives the least amount of air will ultimately determine the total output of the entire engine. Without one of each sensor for each cylinder there is no way around this issue.

OK. More pwar. But it's been said repeatedly "don't expect more pwar from this manifold without other mods". So let's say we go the whole hog and switch to this manifold and switch the exhaust manifold. I presume we don't have a lot more flow capability, but flow is much more even between cylinders than before. How much more pwar could we expect then, simply due to the equalization of the cylinders?

And no, I haven't read Clint's data. Just learned of it actually. But in the absence of looking for more flow I'd like to tease out the pros and cons in something other than Top Gear maths "it's just better". References to something providing the answer after reading and understanding are welcome.

So by evening out the flow across the cylinders, you are making the engine work less hard to make the same amount of power, which improves longevity of the engine. Not only that but for those shooting for high power, it means they won't have a peg leg cylinder holding them back.

OK. How much longevity improvement? Or is there only a longevity improvement in a car that is run close to WOT a lot, or one with a very aggressive tune?

Originally Posted by Yatta Unless you have per cylinder O2/fuel control it gets you closer to targeted AFR’s on each cylinder; the better the natural balance is the less you have to worry about being above and below your actual targeted fueling. our stock manifold can have one cylinder lean and one rich at the same time. I think the only reason you would not want this manifold being no or lightly modded is that you will need to address the emissions controls you would be removing (EGR, VTCS) and the possibility of having to go FMIC. Waiting to see how/if TMIC will work; I really don’t want to move from that but this is compelling enough to consider it.

I think the reason I might not want this manifold being lightly modded is the sheer hassle of having to put it on, delete the EGR, deal with possible fitment issues or figuring things out like all after market parts, and the expense of it all. Performance wise of course we all want it. But all the parts have to earn their keep. If their return isn't concomitant with the time, money, and effort then they're not happening. For the built, maximum power guys the benefit of this is clear. I'm interested in how it can help anyone else. So far it seems like all the mild modded guys have is hand-waving and no one around here would prefer to make any decision on that. Basically yes, I'm searching for a reason to buy this. Heh.

[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by aackthpt OK. More pwar. But it's been said repeatedly "don't expect more pwar from this manifold without other mods". So let's say we go the whole hog and switch to this manifold and switch the exhaust manifold. I presume we don't have a lot more flow capability, but flow is much more even between cylinders than before. How much more pwar could we expect then, simply due to the equalization of the cylinders? That's not something I can answer and I will not put a number on it. It varies between setups and some will see more gains than others. Expect the most power that your turbo and stock head will allow (assuming you don't have a restrictive exhaust or super small intake or inadequately sized intercooler, etc.) is what I will say. This manifold will not hurt you in your quest for more power and won't become a restriction like the stock one will. And no, I haven't read Clint's data. Just learned of it actually. But in the absence of looking for more flow I'd like to tease out the pros and cons in something other than Top Gear maths "it's just better". References to something providing the answer after reading and understanding are welcome. Clint's EGT data is just that, temperature data. It doesn't give the whole picture of how the exhaust actually flows. I'm not sure why people are bringing up exhaust data in an intake manifold thread in the first place. The stock ex mani doesn't tell you how the head flows, or how the intake flows. OK. How much longevity improvement? Or is there only a longevity improvement in a car that is run close to WOT a lot, or one with a very aggressive tune? Not even an OEM with their multi million dollar test setups could answer that without many many hours of use and testing. WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY IS CONJECTURE. The imbalances between cylinders will mostly remain the same at different pressures so whether you're at WOT or cruising, the imbalance is there. END CONJECTURE. I really wish I could say your car will last xxx more time/miles but that's just about impossible. What I can say though is that it is very desirable to have equally powered cylinders, there are ZERO downsides to have balanced flow in an engine. I think the reason I might not want this manifold being lightly modded is the sheer hassle of having to put it on, delete the EGR, deal with possible fitment issues or figuring things out like all after market parts, and the expense of it all. Performance wise of course we all want it. But all the parts have to earn their keep. If their return isn't concomitant with the time, money, and effort then they're not happening. For the built, maximum power guys the benefit of this is clear. I'm interested in how it can help anyone else. So far it seems like all the mild modded guys have is hand-waving and no one around here would prefer to make any decision on that. Basically yes, I'm searching for a reason to buy this. Heh. I definitely understand the position of the lightly modded guys. Your position has more compromises than someone who is trying to make a ton of power or doesn't have to drive their car 7 days a week. It's also tricky for guys in your position because everyone has their stopping point. Some might say they're not willing to give up any emissions devices while others might say they don't want it unless there is a bolt on intercooler solution. The biggest argument I can give to the lightly modded guys for this manifold is that you're not sacrificing any performance with this manifold. There might be a bit more work involved with it but there is also a bit more reward involved too. IMO this is on par with putting on an aftermarket exhaust manifold. The reason I say that is because the reason you do it is you are seeking better performance, more power, etc. but you also recognize there are certain risks which need to be considered as well. Risks like cracking, fitment issues, putting more heat on your TMIC (if you have one), giving up heat shields, possibly not passing emissions, etc. Every part you change on your car carries certain pros vs cons which must be balanced against each other and it's up to you to decide whether the pros outweigh the cons. For me the choice was a no brainer, but for someone who is hesitant or has their doubts, they should consider the pros vs the cons and if they can't decide then they should wait for more results from the product before making a choice.

[PurplFox]

Balanced flow, less heat soak, actually looks good IMO. If i can keep my not ready's down to 2 im in for it.

[g00s3y]

#allcylinderlivesmatter

[thrasher1992]

Am I the only one that sees this as a good enough reason to ditch the top mount and go FMIC?

[MS3Shadow]

Or even make the TMIC more better if it would fit.

sent from my Nexus 6P

[phate]

ZFG about flow or balanced flow.

Give me weight savings.

[aackthpt]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6

Fair enough. I'll watch, and if there are easy solutions then I might consider it. But since mild mods and an E tune will give about as power as one should have in a non-built DD, making the jump to this IM is a very large jump in expense/time/effort for no real tangible benefit.

Originally Posted by thrasher1992 Am I the only one that sees this as a good enough reason to ditch the top mount and go FMIC?

Guaranteed, no. Despite my whinging, the draw is strong. Especially with those summertime sitting-in-traffic BATs suddenly upon us of late.

Originally Posted by MS3Shadow Or even make the TMIC more better if it would fit.

It would make a lot of sense for gen2 guys running meth or E.

[PurplFox]

depending on DM's cost i really don't think it will be that expensive. Most likely less than any other offering on the market for us. DM5Z-9424-A is the 2013-15 intake manifold, found all over for $50. The weight and balance and less heat-soak, makes me want it.

[OverBoosted]

FB post by them said no PI gen2 kit will be $299 for the adapter. Not sure what else come with that though.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Gswin10Spd3]

Originally Posted by OverBoosted FB post by them said no PI gen2 kit will be $299 for the adapter. Not sure what else come with that though. Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Ouch just read that also. That doesn't even include the manifold. Welp, nvm on my part. I was thinking about $150 tops for a machined adapter and maybe $50 more for the TB wiring extension. I am sure it will benefit some but for that kind of money, it's better spent elsewhere.

[aackthpt]

It's not just that. It's like this: there's the all-day install, particularly as you probably don't already have the right tools to make it go fast. And you gotta delete the EGR. And if you want full benefit might as well go equal length EM. Hmm, I'm in there, might as well replace the old k04. Hey, that'd be a good time to do the downpipe. And it'd be much easier to get it all to work if I go FMIC. Oh dang now I have to top up my tune. Wait, I just dropped $3k and blew my weekends for a month? Shit.

Yep, I'm still trying to talk myself off the ledge. Car parts... when hookers and blow is not an option.

[Thepedigree13]

All the talk is just that...talk. I don't have enough experience with cars to truly determine on my own whether this will be as beneficial as I hope it will be.

However, all it takes is one of us to install this, give a detailed review (with gripes, suggestions during install, butt dyno feelings), and have some sort of data to illustrate the actual flow increase etc.

As soon as someone does this and shows their real world experience with it, $300 doesn't seem nearly as bad. I mean we all spent more than that on hpfp internals.

The idea behind this is good, and regardless what the outcome is, I still give DM credit for continuing to push the platform.

[PurplFox]

Pricing is,way higher than I thought. And need to purchase extras to make it work. Need a couple of stock guys to get one for heatsoke info, and throttle responce.

[Yatta]

Pricing might seem high; adding a Ebay Manifold (why the link doesn’t work... don’t know but http://r.ebay.com/n5e7ZO does work for me). and its still pretty damned cheap for a balanced intake. I suppose it depends on what is added and if they are making the adaptor themselves; the only other part I have seen like this is here Speed 3 - Mazda They are not doing much in the way of integration you would still have to figure out how to line the FoST mani to it (but having metal to work with is good). and they cost a bit more...

[PurplFox]

Not going to deny, I want one. Since maybe I misunderstood what all's included, I'll read it again.
I would expect for the 500, to include preped manifold and adapter, around 400 ill buy and prep my own.
Still very likely to get one just for the heatsoak and flow balance.

I'm an idiot, re-read. Id do it for the total of 350 with extension for the tb.

[Farhan@DM]

More data:
DM Mazdaspeed ST Intake Manifold Dyno Data

Discuss


Video from the Freektune dyno, because who doesn't like a good fireball?

[macdiesel]

Curious about the numbers with a proper tune for the ST manifold


Sent from my iPhone using my stinky little fingers

[Farhan@DM]

Originally Posted by macdiesel Curious about the numbers with a proper tune for the ST manifold Sent from my iPhone using my stinky little fingers

Further tuning did not significantly change the output.

[neganox]

Originally Posted by Farhan@DM More data: DM Mazdaspeed ST Intake Manifold Dyno Data Discuss Video from the Freektune dyno, because who doesn't like a good fireball?

Lost 0.1 hp somewhere in there. Would not bang.

[cshunter]

Did that car have any headwork?

Sent from my SP-G246279105748201337P

[WetzMS3]

Originally Posted by cshunter Did that car have any headwork? Sent from my SP-G246279105748201337P

Nope. Just had the 3 angle grind on the valve seats touched up. Nothing special at all.

[Yatta]

Originally Posted by Farhan@DM More data: DM Mazdaspeed ST Intake Manifold Dyno Data Discuss Video from the Freektune dyno, because who doesn't like a good fireball?

I would love to see AFR, MAF and Boost on the graph as well; the headroom for AFR goes up if you are well balanced (i.e. not leaning out well past a lean target).

do you have it fitting with a TMIC yet?

[phate]

Weight info, for those who are interested in shedding a tiny bit.

ST Mani: 3.6 lb
DM Adapter: 1.7 lb

I don't have a stock manifold weight, only one that has VTCS removed with mild porting. It weighed 7.7lb, so I'm guessing a totally stock mani is around 8.5lb.

Approximate savings: 3.2 lb

[LittleredMPS]

Got a release date for kits yet?

[Code Monkey]

^ About two weeks out.

[Farhan@DM]

Originally Posted by Code Monkey ^ About two weeks out.

Close. Tomorrow.

[mxlplx71]

Originally Posted by Farhan@DM Close. Tomorrow.

ooooooh page not available.

[Yatta]

Originally Posted by mxlplx71 ooooooh page not available.

Noticed that as well... maybe the page will be up tomorrow? hah