Got the Cobb AP

[Abilor]

I foolishly posted in the Cobb forums, when I should have come here first.

I'm, doing a lot of research now, but I'd appreciate a wizard to share a few tips. I'm trying to decide what out-of-the-box Cobb map to run with my current mods, and then ask about using the Accesstuner software.

Here are my mods (related to power)
CP-E Nano Xcel SRI
Cobb Turbo Inlet
SU TMIC
TurboSmart BOV
ITV22s
SU Test Pipe (will get Borla or HKS CBE by end of year)

I have a dashhawk, and with stock map and balls out WOT, my fuel pressure is solid at 1600psi.

So, gentlemen, which map should I run? Stage 1 with SF intake? Or might I dabble in stage 2?

I assume whatever I do, I will datalog and inspect fuel pressure, but I'm saying f*** it and thinking about just jumping straight into a CP-E HP pump. How rough is the install on that?

And how do I get started with AccessTuner? Is there a guide?

[manelscout4life]

try stage 2. make logs if theres something not right try stage 1.

now donate

[Ivan]

i want the accessport

[Principle]

Stage 1 + SF 91 Octane

[AtTheDriveIn]

Stage 2 is fine with the mods you have then do a MAF cal. Keep an eye on your fuel pressure like a hawk.

[Abilor]

Originally Posted by AtTheDriveIn Stage 2 is fine with the mods you have then do a MAF cal. Keep an eye on your fuel pressure like a hawk.

Yeah, some folks at the cobb forums agree with you. I was told that the test pipe frees up the backend enough to justify it, but fuel pressure would be an issue. I will be ordering the CP-E fuel pump this week; I don't want to have to keep looking over my shoulder to go WOT with a stage 2 map. Until I get the fuel pump in, I will run either stage 2 'safe mode' (how do you put it in safe mode?) or stage 1 with SF.

I heard that the CPE nano is close enough to Cobb SF that it's an ok place to start, and tune with accesstuner as you go? I don't have accesstuner yet, so I'm confused as to how you would play with it, but I'm sure I'll get it. Is this what you mean by MAF cal?

I was logging last night, and fuel pressure was ok, in fact pig rich.

Originally Posted by Principle Stage 1 + SF 91 Octane

Why do you say 91? I have access to 93. Dalenixon on these boards recommended 91 even with 93 because he's paranoid they lie about how refined it is.

[Principle]

Why do you say 91? I have access to 93. Dalenixon on these boards recommended 91 even with 93 because he's paranoid they lie about how refined it is.

I monitor on a consistent basis and although I fill with 93 octane I'm still on a 91 tune as a precaution. Believe it or not a lot of gas stations have shitty gas although it's labeled 93, It may not burn as it should, or the quality may not be up to par. That's why I restrict myself to certain gas stations that I know have good quality gas as well.

[Abilor]

Originally Posted by Principle I monitor on a consistent basis and although I fill with 93 octane I'm still on a 91 tune as a precaution. Believe it or not a lot of gas stations have shitty gas although it's labeled 93, It may not burn as it should, or the quality may not be up to par. That's why I restrict myself to certain gas stations that I know have good quality gas as well.

Interesting. I only buy at Shell or Exxon, and since we refine the damn stuff down the road, I'd like to think it's up to snuff. But then again, Louisiana is known for cutting corners. I wonder if there's a way to test?

In any case, what you say makes sense. Guess I'll start out cautious and run the Stage 1 91 SF map, and log to see how it goes.

Another question; the Cobb forum folks were of the opinion that a test pipe will function pretty much as a downpipe for the purpose of suiting up with the Stage 2 OTS as a starting point. Does anyone here call shenanigans on that theory?

[Docnox]

Originally Posted by Abilor Interesting. I only buy at Shell or Exxon, and since we refine the damn stuff down the road, I'd like to think it's up to snuff. But then again, Louisiana is known for cutting corners. I wonder if there's a way to test? In any case, what you say makes sense. Guess I'll start out cautious and run the Stage 1 91 SF map, and log to see how it goes. Another question; the Cobb forum folks were of the opinion that a test pipe will function pretty much as a downpipe for the purpose of suiting up with the Stage 2 OTS as a starting point. Does anyone here call shenanigans on that theory?

You'll be fine with stage 2. I've been running it for almost a year now, fuel pressure is mint. I have a wideband though, so I can tell if something's up.

As far as fuel goes, if it's shitty you'll know. One station by me was selling 87 labeled as 93 and I noticed kr all over the place on my AP. I called it, knew something was going on, stopped going there and then read it in the paper months later when they were shut down. Just go to a reputable place and you'll be fine.

If you have $600 to burn, then grab the cpe pump but if you don't plan on modding much more than where it's at, then I'd leave it alone. . . Unless your stock pump shits itself.

[AtTheDriveIn]

Originally Posted by Abilor Yeah, some folks at the cobb forums agree with you. I was told that the test pipe frees up the backend enough to justify it, but fuel pressure would be an issue. I will be ordering the CP-E fuel pump this week; I don't want to have to keep looking over my shoulder to go WOT with a stage 2 map. Until I get the fuel pump in, I will run either stage 2 'safe mode' (how do you put it in safe mode?) or stage 1 with SF. I heard that the CPE nano is close enough to Cobb SF that it's an ok place to start, and tune with accesstuner as you go? I don't have accesstuner yet, so I'm confused as to how you would play with it, but I'm sure I'll get it. Is this what you mean by MAF cal?

Sounds like your pump is rocking steady then. I ran stage 2 with the stock pump for a long time, not saying that you should! Get ATR as soon as you can so you can start off on the tuning. The MAF cal is the next thing you should do after you load your map. The reason for the MAF cal is to dial in the exact amount of fuel you should be getting and for the purposes of the ECU pulling/adding the EXACT amount. One more thing, if you can play the waiting game you should order the KMD/Autotech fuel pump internals instead of blowing 600 dollars.

[Abilor]

I considered internals, but there's where I'm nervous. I'd rather not put my fingers up its ass and hope all goes well. With the CP-E I know a real engineer did it, and for $630, I get $390 back in store credit at the rpm store. So it's really only $240, plus peace of mind. With the store credit I'll be getting H&R springs and the SPC rear camber arms.

[08cosmic3]

Better check that price again on the pump, your numbers don't add up.

[justint5387]

Originally Posted by Abilor I considered internals, but there's where I'm nervous. I'd rather not put my fingers up its ass and hope all goes well. With the CP-E I know a real engineer did it, and for $630, I get $390 back in store credit at the rpm store. So it's really only $240, plus peace of mind. With the store credit I'll be getting H&R springs and the SPC rear camber arms.

No, the $390 is on top of that $630. You just get the $390 back after you return your stock pump.

[Speed3eak]

Bingo. It's $630 after you get your refund. The difference between getting a refund and a store credit is $15 so it's only worth it if you were planning on getting something from the rpm store anyway, and/or you don't want to wait on a refund, and/or you don't need the money back.

I went with the refund, because while it would be nice to have the full compliment of cp-e mounts (what I was going to get), I realized I won't need them at 250 whp if driver311 doesn't need them with 400whp.

As for the map you need to use, I dunno. I'm a noob too.

FWIW, the difference between the 93 and 91 octane maps is boost, timing, and AFRs I think. Or at least it was for the genpu OTS maps.

[Abilor]

You are of course correct. Bummer.

And in other news, I just pulled this out of a 2nd and 3rd gear WOT log (1st column is boost, 2nd is fuel psi, third is actual AFR):

1.014999986 1674.75 13.89080048
6.815000057 1664.599976 12.97239971
10.43999958 1689.25 12.74279976
15.94999981 1696.5 12.16880035
15.80500031 1641.400024 11.36520004
15.51500034 1644.300049 10.90600014
15.94999981 1605.150024 10.79119968
15.94999981 1648.650024 10.79119968
16.53000069 1573.25 10.56159973
15.94999981 1552.949951 10.44680023
15.80500031 1510.900024 10.33199978
15.36999989 1574.699951 10.33199978
14.78999996 1632.699951 10.10239983
12.90499973 1686.349976 9.643199921
12.03499985 1706.650024 9.758000374
12.61499977 1696.5 9.298800468
4.639999866 1612.400024 29.27400017
-22.14620972 1689.25 29.27400017
-25.09921646 1703.75 29.27400017
-5.314069271 1329.650024 10.21720028
1.450000048 1679.099976 9.758000374
11.31000042 1703.75 10.10239983
17.39999962 1674.75 10.21720028
18.99500084 1262.949951 10.44680023
17.39999962 1112.150024 10.33199978
16.09499931 1154.199951 10.67640018
15.51500034 1277.449951 11.02079964
15.94999981 1315.150024 10.79119968
15.94999981 1476.099976 10.79119968
15.94999981 1532.650024 10.79119968
15.80500031 1486.25 10.67640018
15.51500034 1674.75 10.67640018
15.07999992 1648.650024 10.10239983
5.945000172 1713.900024 29.27400017

I'm guessing based on that a new pump is in order.

[Speed3eak]

No - your AFRs are super rich, first things first I'd try and lean them out.

If your MAF calibrated properly?

IMO you need to be running at least 11.6 for your AFRs. I was dropping pressure at 11.3, and once I switched to 11.8, I saw more power and my stocker held pressure great in 40-50F weather where it was failing previously.

[Abilor]

This is all with stock map. But even though AFR is pig rich, which it is, you can see where the fuel pressure dropped to around 1200 for several units. A stage 2 map would decimate that pump; I do NOT want to be nervous when I WOT, I only want to go "WEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!"

Besides, I explained to my wife that, "if I don't replace my faulty fuel pump, my engine might explode." She agreed it would be wise to replace pump, so it will be cool when I spend the better part of a caturday working on it (we have a 1 year old, so usually it's daddy time on Saturday).

I think KMD internals sound good. Where to get? Here?: Audi - A3 - 2.0T FSI - Engine - KMD Tuning - 2.0T FSI High Pressure Fuel Pump Kit - KMD Tuning

[Speed3eak]

Originally Posted by Abilor This is all with stock map. But even though AFR is pig rich, which it is, you can see where the fuel pressure dropped to around 1200 for several units. A stage 2 map would decimate that pump; I do NOT want to be nervous when I WOT, I only want to go "WEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!" Besides, I explained to my wife that, "if I don't replace my faulty fuel pump, my engine might explode." She agreed it would be wise to replace pump, so it will be cool when I spend the better part of a caturday working on it (we have a 1 year old, so usually it's daddy time on Saturday). I think KMD internals sound good. Where to get? Here?: Audi - A3 - 2.0T FSI - Engine - KMD Tuning - 2.0T FSI High Pressure Fuel Pump Kit - KMD Tuning

You can run a so called "stage 2" map on stock fuel pump without problems. Stage 2 is denoted by higher boost levels IIRC, so you should be fine running 16-17 psi on a stage 1 or stage 2 map - your wgdc is just gonna be a lot lower than the stage 1.

You should get a fuel pump at some point, so better now I suppose. I would go with either those KMDs or Autotech internals - heard great things about both, the only problems that arise seem to be from botched installations. Just use a lot of brake cleaner before the install, and some oil afterwards to lube up the install afterwards. There are a few install walk-through threads/videos on here, so just use one of those I guess.

Also, thanks for donating btw.

While you are waiting for your internals, I would try running a stage 1 map, back off the timing 2-3* or so at WOT ( I ran 11* just fine on the stock pump at 18-19 psi tapering to 17 psi, but I won't act like I'm not a noob or anything), lower boost to 16-17 psi, tapering to 15.5 or so at redline, and lean out your AFRs to 11.5-11.8 or so.

IMO, stage 2 maps are actually safer for stock TMIC if you lower the boost because their timing maps are less aggressive.

Just because you're dropping pressure on the stock tune doesn't mean your fuel pump can't hold pressure with a slightly de-tuned stage 1 map. Also, ECU seems to use the load tables if they're low, even with boost tuning enabled, so you might want to try setting your targeted load x gear higher than the ECU can achieve so it'll target boost at WOT situations.

[Abilor]

Best advice I've received in 2 days, thanks.

I have it bad for those KMD internals, but I still can't find them for MS3. What about the ones Ken at PG has? the PTP internals?

[Speed3eak]

Don't get the PTP internals.

The internals for the 2.0 FSI engine work fine for the ms3 - we use the same HPFP. Just because they aren't labeled for the ms3 specifically, doesn't mean they won't work. The internals in your link are what guys like haltech and lenny are using (actually, those have the updated coating, but it's the same pump internals for us and the audi/vw HPFP).

[Abilor]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak Don't get the PTP internals. The internals for the 2.0 FSI engine work fine for the ms3 - we use the same HPFP. Just because they aren't labeled for the ms3 specifically, doesn't mean they won't work. The internals in your link are what guys like haltech and lenny are using (actually, those have the updated coating, but it's the same pump internals for us and the audi/vw HPFP).

Well okay then. Updated coating is desirable? I will go ahead and nab if all seems well. I found the guides; will have to buy a vise too, but what the hey.

All in all, looks like a great Saturday project.

[tddvrrn]

no ptp. many bad things written about them on here. search it.

i think the kmd are listed as vw pump internals, as we share a pump with them. autotechs rock as well, from what people have been posting.

edit: fuck it all to hell. i get up to drop a dukester, come back, finish my post and now my post is captain random, 2 posts too late. stoopid internetz

[Speed3eak]

I dunno if you can get a set without the upgraded coating...

It's untested, but it's supposed to be better than the old coating - and the old coating is still going strong after 40k hard miles in lenny's car if I'm not mistaken.

Really, you can't go wrong with either.

As far as the install, most of your time will be swapping the internals. I swapped my whole pump, and I was so pissed that I took out the battery tray.

Pump swap was:
- Pull a fuse
- Start the car, wait for it to die
- Take some shit off the stock pump
- Undo the 3 e8 torx bolts
- Swap pump
- Redo e8 torx bolts, being extra fucking careful to tighten that shit evenly
- Replace fuse and other shit

Seriously, it took less time than my test pipe - after you remove the TMIC cover, you have all the access you'll ever need to that pump.

[Abilor]

ROFL, I don't even have TMIC cover (SU TMIC). Thanks for all the advice!

[Abilor]

I found some auto tech internals, at a secret location I won't disclose. Finding them was a bitch!!! KMD and CPE are sold out all over the country. I am going to have them overnighted, and hopefully fix this weekend. I'm paranoid about the cleaning aspect, so I'll have to set up a good spot in my office and lock the cats out, who drag sand all over the room. Need a vise and a rubber mallet.

I hear once you get those rocking, you can tune up some gains that rely on the high pressure pump; anyone familiar with this process?

[speedms6]

couple things, first you dont need a rubber mallet to install these, dont use one, im not sure where you saw that, but you dont need a rubber mallet.

second, dont give the secret location nonsense, this is a forum to help others, you got your internals ordered, so help other people out who may need them.

third, you definitely need internals your pressure is dropping below 1600 psi

also the atr is avaiblable for download on the cobb website, read dano's boost tuning thread, but first do a maf cal. there is also a thread on how to do that by dano i believe as well.

[Abilor]

Originally Posted by speedms6 couple things, first you dont need a rubber mallet to install these, dont use one, im not sure where you saw that, but you dont need a rubber mallet. second, dont give the secret location nonsense, this is a forum to help others, you got your internals ordered, so help other people out who may need them. third, you definitely need internals your pressure is dropping below 1600 psi also the atr is avaiblable for download on the cobb website, read dano's boost tuning thread, but first do a maf cal. there is also a thread on how to do that by dano i believe as well.

My order hasn't gone through. Once I get my unit locked in, I will disclose.

[Abilor]

Cassidy at Integrated Engineering has set one of these aside for me. Open season for the rest of y'all: Hi-Volume Fuel Pump UpGrade Kit 2.0T FSI

[Abilor]

Ok, got the Cobb AP up and running; took the time to download the stock map (jeez, 1/2 hour?), and flashed the Stage 1 + SF + 93 octane map.

Initial impressions: 1st and 2nd blow my mind. The first time I nudged 2nd a bit she just exploded like an angry hornet. I giggled for 1/4 mile; it was just awesome, and I knew it was worth it. 1st is angry too, but still a granny gear. Third pushes harder if you lean at 3000+ RPM.

I logged a few runs deeper into the power band, pulls in 3 & 4 from 40 to 75; still feels great, but don't notice a huge difference. Butt dyno is meh on the difference between stock.

Tl;dr: lower gears awesome; big boy band about same.

The fuel pump internals come tomorrow; hopefully those and a stage 2 OTS will register on the butt dyno on the interstate. Plus I still have to ATR.

More to come...

[Speed3eak]

Yeah, the tune makes the biggest difference in the lower gears IMO.

If you want to make more power, try leaning out your AFR's to 11.6-12.0 depending on the quality of gas you have access to.

Surprising that you say 1st is still a granny gear - mine became quite a handful with the dsc off in terms of tq steer and keeping traction in anything besides a straight line.

Anyway, glad you like it, and you're gonna have a lot of fun with ATR once you get it.

[Abilor]

Yeah, I noticed a huge difference with the AFRs in the 11s on the stage 1 map. I ordered a CP-E DP with high flow cat, so now I can't wait for that to arrive; also trying to get a hold of Bnoon's bolt.

Installed the Autotech internals yesterday. I logged a few WOTs; damn thing holds 1850psi at 19psi of boost!

I now feel comfortable trying the stage 2 SF + TMIC 93 OTS map. Wll lof and tweak.

Oh yeah, I learned how to calibrate my MAF; that calibration made a huge difference. It really is like a new car. I used to lust after 370z; now I feel like I drive one, breaking tires loose in first through third.

Gonna get a muffler shop of reputation to install DP; don't want to lose a hand or break an O2 sensor.

Oh, by granny I meant it's not nearly tall enough. But yeah, it's almost useless with how much power it puts down. I preferbto get into second and WOT from there, but my poor Hankooks... Gonna need new tires. Prolly for birthday in June (was gonna get DP but couldnt wait).

[Abilor]

The Stage 2/TMIC/SF/93 map runs like shit, even with MAF calibration. The AFRs are rich, but not absurdly so. I'm hitting 19psi, but it's still sluggish compared to my MAF calibrated Stage 1/SF/93 map. I will focus on tuning that map until I get the DP and banjo bolt on.

The fuel internals rock across the board.

[Speed3eak]

Interesting - a big part of how fast a car feels is when the power hits - my stock tune only feels a tiny bit slower than my Stg 1 + SRI map, at least until you get past 3.5k rpm.

Do you have any datalogs comparing the two maps? Funny that your car would run worse with the stage 2 map.

[Abilor]

Well, here's the stage 1 map log (attached). One thing I am noticing is that even though the boost is targeted at 17psi, I'm holding at 18-19 in some pulls. My AFRs look pretty good, in the upper 11s. My wastegate doesn't appear to be close to maxing out. Fuel pressure is awesome.

You can see on the log that LTFT is close to zero. I hooked up the dashhawk, and during and after a 10 mile drive home, the LTFT was 0.0 on the nose. I'm pretty happy with the MAF calibration.

I have a stage 2 log, but the highlight is that it only hits 17 or so, and the AFRs are rich, in the upper 9s and 10s. And despite a MAF cal, the LTFT was -12.

So I'm wondering if its the lean AFR that is registering so hard on the butt dyno? The stage 2 map feels bogged down when you give it gas at 3500k in second, whereas stage 1 just leaps. Perhaps I *need* the DP for stage 2 to be effective? Bear in mind I am running the TMIC map as well.

In any case, please look at my log. I love my MAF cal; what next? What is the logical next progression in tuning the map? Upping boost load? I am studying the guides, but advice for my map is appreciated.

[Abilor]

Curious now as I read more. Stage 2 should make more power; hmmm..

I am of two schools of thought.

The ambitious side says flash back to stage 2, maybe SF without TMIC, and try the MAF Cal again and see if I can't lean it out, plus get some good logs to compare.

The conservative side says that the stage 1 map is running well, and it's a safe spot to bone up on Dano's thread and learn the tuning process; when the DP comes, I can "graduate" to stage 2 + SF + TMIC 93 map.

Angel and Devil...

[Speed3eak]

Okay, as for your WOT logs, you need to do a single gear pull, starting at 2500 rpm, and ride out the gear to redline.

From the look of your logs, you don't go WOT for long enough to enter open loop, so that tells me that you could change your OL/CL transition so it switches faster (when you get ATR of course).

Your AFRs are good, so I'm assuming that you changed your fueling targets in your CL map? Or did you change your OL/WOT targets to see the change? Your ltft's never zero out, so you technically aren't in OL if I'm not mistaken.

Your load and your MAF g/s look decent - only thing is you should be able to hit much higher loads at those boost levels. Rob (rfinkle) and a few other guys have discovered that the req load x gear tables are still being used by the 2010 ECU, even with boost-based tuning, so you'll probably want to raise those to either 2.3 or 3.0 from 3000 rpms onwards. If you're worried about putting stress on the engine at low rpms, you can raise them from 3500 onwards instead.

If you mess with the req load x tables though, you're also going to want to lower your wgdc a bit, as I've heard it bumps up your boost some. It hasn't happened to me, but then again I'm also maxing out wgdc from around 5000 onwards so there isn't really any room for more boost.

Other than that, looks good - just needs a few tweaks and you'll have a pretty solid tune.

[08cosmic3]

You've come a long way pilgrim.

[Abilor]

Hehe. I still have a gap in my knowledge; you're speaking calculus, and I'm still on algebra. All I've done is the MAF cal; the rest is still Greek. I will log third gear pulls as you suggest though, post, and go from there. I'm learning quickly from Dano's thread.

Also, please point out stupidity in the future; dont want to risk my engine.

Oh, and I do have ATR.

[Abilor]

OK, here are the fresh logs, made in the way that was suggested. One thing I notice right away is that I'm not hitting the boost targets with the stage 2 +sf +TMIC map. I'm about to go try the Stage 2 +SF OTS to see how that goes. Pending that, I will settle in on the stage 1.

In any case, as far as stage 1 map, now that I am satisfied with the MAF cal, I assume the next step would have been fuel tuning, but my AFRs look good. How would I have gone about fuel tuning though?

After that, I can move on to boost based tuning, or do I up my loads? Or what? I wish there was a "welcome to ATR" overview thread. The stuff I'm finding is either quite basic, or too advanced.

Anyway, please examine logs and offer advice.

Thanks!!

Happy Easter.

[Abilor]

Added mods in sig for reference.